SAF defense is next in line. It's obviously a little invalidated by the fact it happened almost 40 years ago and circumstances were completely different, but we have already exhausted the Klopp defense (we are clearly not making CL final this year) and we are close to calling off the Arteta defense (unless we go on a run now and do indeed compete for the title).
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Votes can now be changed
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
I don't understand this view. Any good job should have the manager constantly under review. Ten Hag hasn't achieved what the likes of Ancelotti have to deserve any other feeling. In fact, based on past performances, he more than any manager in the premier league should be under review. The idea that this is a bad thing is what is causing us to have issues imo. How can a manager perform as badly as he did last season and people even suggest that he start with a clean slate. For me, I truly question the ambition of United fans. What do we actually want? Do we actually want to be back to where we belong, or are we so scared to look bad that we're okay taking things slowly. We're not a small club. We have lots of money that we constantly spend. Rebuilds for clubs like ours do not exist, because they should not need to happen in the first place. The amount of money we've spent and been willing to spend, should always amount to an immediate change in status.
What seems to happen at United is that fans seem almost too scared to hold managers accountable. The ride of a rebuild for a club like ours should not even exist. We should not be terming this a rebuild. Even between 03-04 and 05-06, we actually attempted to challenge for major trophies. These were called rebuilding seasons after they had happened, but the aim and the feeling of the fans in those years was one in which we felt capable of winning the league. City may have better players than us, but we do have really good players. Every year that we throw away as a rebuilding year is a lost opportunity to challenge and a wasted year in these players' careers.
The challenge, even this season, is that we're not actually waiting for our players to improve and take their games to the next level. We are waiting for our manager to build a system capable of using the players available well and consistently enough to challenge for the league. This despite having managed us for 2 previous seasons. The onus is on him to prove that he is capable of providing a good system, that allows our players to shine. Ten Hag is that part of the team we have the most doubt over, and after three seasons, we really should not have to have doubts.
This is why, unlike a new manager, Ten Hag has to prove that he can get good results whilst giving consistently good performances for the fanbase to truly believe that he's the guy to lead us forward. He should not simply be given time to prove this either, he has to earn it. If we give Ten Hag time where he's inconsistent, as a club we would have thrown away 2 seasons in which all evidence proved that the manager wasn't up to par. These are opportunity costs of a potential challenge, wasted time that another manager could have used to improve the club, lost fans who won't understand why the club would appear to not care about how we perform, lost new potential fans who won't be attracted by the results or performances we've been producing, lost champions league revenue, another year of decreased status that could affect revenues moving forward and other potential financial costs. This would be worth it with a manager who people believed in. However, Ten Hag has rightfully lost that.
Season 3 into the rebuild and we're still going backwards. Simply unacceptable however people try and dress it up.
The time for discussing this is over, wins and good performances are needed now, or he's failed and must go. Another 6 or so games, then it's decision time.
Kind of a side point but this must be the first time we’re actually rebuilding anything.
It was always a buzzword when new managers came in but all that happened was we signed random players and made out like they’d take us back to the top.
Now there’s a new owner and clearly huge changes on the football side. I guess it only took a decade to start rebuilding.
Lord knows. I find it equally as far fetched as people thinking Arsenal can go from finishing 5th to almost winning the title from a frankly ridiculous run.
Yes one flaw with comparing Ten Hag to Arteta is the fact that the latter had a linear progression. That being said he finished 8th in that midyear then 8th in a first full season and then 5th.
I dont think there's a manager around who is given that level of patience if they were in the United hotseat. Whoever it is, ETH, LVG, Ancelotti or De Zerbi etc. Would need to have a period of giving up previous principles in the hunt of relevancy out of sheer pressure. Plus, we over performed in season 1, which set an even higher bar for season 2.
There is absolutely no denying ten hag fecked nearly everything last season. I think this season is a matter of seeing whether it was a one off given all the background noise, or he's just not the guy to do it. From a performance standpoint I do see a big improvement. But that's not hard to do compared to last season and without results in the medium term it won't be enough either.
Technically this is Ten Hag's second season.
For sure. Rumours have it he'll get a new deal if he doesn't lose to Spurs on Sunday.
Erm, what?
Under the new structure. In 2022 they gave him a bunch of overpriced, unsuitable signings. Unlike Arteta who was properly backed from the start.
"Technically"??? This is in fact, indisputably, ETH's third season as manager of Manchester United.
If you're hanging your hat on the argument that ETH wasn't really the manager in his first season as manager then it's an even worse indictment of his management. The squad he inherited, so goes your argument, is the squad that finished third in the PL. The squad he built -- thus, his "first" season -- was a disaster.
The squad he has now, which he has continued to build, is performing even worse in its third season, dropping points to midtable clubs and only comprehensively beating a club that is sure to be relegated and another which is a midtable League One side.
You would be well advised to search for another argument to defend ETH's abysmal performance as manager, which may well have ended with the humiliation at Selhurst Park but there in nothing in performances so far this season to indicate that we will comfortably dispatch any of our upcoming PL opponents.
Well he's done terrible under the new structure, maybe they're the problem after all?
But seriously, it's literally his third season, the Earth has been in orbit around the Sun a whole two times and a bit since he became the manager. I don't even have a problem with him as a person but posts that quite literally want to deny years of scientific study just to keep a bald bloke who's bad at his job in a job make me want him fired yesterday.
You’ll just make all sort of excuses, right ?
Most ridiculous thing I have heard in this forum.
In 2022, they gave him what he begged for, Antony for 90 fecking millions. He pushed for the overpriced sh*t players he had.
I mean ten Hag has literally been given that level of patience… he is still here after last season.
Not to implement this free flowing style from day one he hasn't. He had to revert to pragmatism in his first year to get top 4 and build at the same time. He can't just do an Ange and say "let's play mate" without consequence in season one.
And season two was a car crash, even as a defender of his I know he is fortunate to be given this season to prove it was a one off.
Still it’s basically unprecedented for a manager of a top club to keep the job after a season like this. He’s been allowed a lot of patience, and hasn’t really given the board more reasons to keep him than Arteta had at Arsenal.
Madrid, Barca, Juve, Liverpool, Bayern etc. there’s no way any manager is keeping the job after last season. Zero chance. In fact all of them would have sacked him immediately after we got knocked out of CL. We are far more patient than any other big club, to our detriment.
Should have known from the start you were joking.Arteta got Partey for €50m and Gabriel for €26m in his first window, and a couple of cheap signings who are no longer there. Hardly an immense level of support.
ETH was allowed to sign his former defender for over £50m, his former winger for £85m, another Eredivisie player, and basically the only signing that wasn’t clearly his own idea may have been Casemiro.
It’s not a valid argument. ETH was hugely backed in his first window, he just went for the wrong talent. How we ended up signing Antony for that price while West Ham got Kudus for £35m I will never know. If anything we’ve stopped catering to his whims now after two seasons of letting him get anyone he ever wanted.
Yeah it was a little strange how Marcus can in at no.9 and then had to move to the left. He didn’t get any time to get into the game because the roles are different.
I look forward to seeing Zirkzee and Hojlund together, although I don’t actually think Bruno played badly at all on Saturday.
Very very wishful thinking.
Please stop, the excessive sarcasm is upsetting Gazza.
Good lord
One of the best traits of a good manager is to manage results with average players. Nobody can have a set of world class players except City, Real and etc. A good must be able to adopt tactics with players available. ETH doesnt have it, whether we are 0-1 or 0-3 down or 1-0 or 3-0 up. Putting another forward and take off a defender, pushing the defender up to win headache and create setup nightmares. I see nothing to suggest that he is the right manager, we need a gung-ho manager. Klopp would be perfect if we sign him when we had the chance. With the financial support, we would be won a few EPL and champion league instead just being happy with league and FA cups whole languishing in mid table. We need to find the next Klopp to win something.
Every week we're going down the table. I said I was gonna give him two seasons before properly judging him so this is the season. After seeing his up and downs, his signings, and how the team play now, I've come into a conclusion that I think he's an average manager. Can he be successful? he can. If the team is already more than good enough to be successful. The team needs to be exceptional. He's not the kind of manager who gets more out of the players he's got. And I always respect managers who can punch above their weight, not the other way around.
This
Even now with his nonautonomy in transfers he was able to obtain two of his former charges in the summer winsow. Club decisions or not, the signings play into his known methods of operation in the transfer market thus far at united.
My bad. I should've used "performance" instead of results in both contexts. My point still stands. Both sides are satisfied with the performance. Except that the other side is an underperforming Crystal fecking Palace.
in his first season he was great at this. Didn’t we score the most goals from subs that season?
If the Chelsea guy can so it 2 months, why can't we?
Chelsea is doing well indeed, but they were on the right track after Christmas last season as well. Pizza Pep walked into a club in good shape. We will see whether it lasts, just look at Postecoglou.
Seems like he and his team do not find another gear. When we struggle we just dont find an edge
My point had feck all to do with transfers. Transfers are down to a range of things outside of just who the manager is.
Its not unprecedented. I just gave you an example of a manager at another big club who gave time despite a longer stretch of poor league endings.
Unless your argument is Arsenal isn't a big club. They do give more patience than the clubs we've named I suppose.
On in game management alone he should be gone.
Wait, what? Chelsea? A club in good shape? In that case, Ten Hag has no excuses as we're run brilliantly by comparison, even under Woodward.
Double digit exodus from the squad, global scouting heads sacked and the would be DoF sacked before he got into the DoF role
Yeah I don't have Arsenal level with us in terms of status. They've been pretty much irrelevant for 20 years, and more than 15 year when Arteta took over.
If there's any club that does not have anything remotely resembling 'footballing structure' it's Chelsea.
Harsh but also true
Scraping the barrel here aren't we?
Why not just say its his first season due to the Ineos structure only being in place this summer. Bloody hell.
Wait how? Care to elaborate?