Someone on Twitter mentioned that Ole seems to be only United manager who's judged solely on his lows, and infrequently on the (many) highs. Continues to be true even now.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked
- Thread starter Cheimoon
- Start date
- Status
I'm just trying to follow your logic - you've repeatedly deferred to the board's choice of replacement, but refuse to defer to their actual current choice of replacement, which is nobody. You can absolutely disagree with that, but in order to do so you need to provide an alternative.
As for Tuchel, I'm quite put off by his poor performance at Bayern, finishing third in a one horse race in Germany was poor, but well done for finally offering an argument in favour of someone. Personally I disagree, as I'd rather wait for a better candidate.
As for "ego maniac", if that's exclusionary then you'd be left with very few managers to pick from.
Let’s say we hired Poch instead of EtH and EtH went to Chelsea. And EtH performed completely the same at Chelsea as he is performing at United now.
Now suppose Poch is also failing with us in similar fashion and we are discussing possible replacements. EtH has just been sacked by Chelsea and is available.
I am sure that the same people saying “no good replacements” would have been laughing off a suggestion that we go for EtH and would have been bigging up Poch endlessly.
Now suppose Poch is also failing with us in similar fashion and we are discussing possible replacements. EtH has just been sacked by Chelsea and is available.
I am sure that the same people saying “no good replacements” would have been laughing off a suggestion that we go for EtH and would have been bigging up Poch endlessly.
That is what I'm advocating for, because if you can't name a replacement, then you don't know of anybody that can do a better job. Just because you can't make a replacement doesn't mean there's no one, correct, but it does mean that you don't know of anyone. So it means that you want him sacked, and have no idea what to do afterwards, expecting the new regime to find a replacement who currently only exists in your imagination.
INEOS/Ashworth have decided who to get - that's sticking with Ten Hag for now. A rational disagreement requires an alternative option. Hating the current manager so much you want him sacked immediately no matter what, without any thought beyond that act, simply isn't rational.
The Ole defense is so strange. One thing that's made the club more and more instable is the constant downgrade over the years of the squad and overall confidence and structure.
During the Ole tenure one of the worst parts was the Pogba inconsistency and growing unreliability in his fitness levels.
I think ETH still stands a chance, but clearly he hasn't delivered as of yet. There is way less foundation here than Ole, Mourinho and Van Gaal had, but hopefully there is now the opportunity to build a new one.
Now the (over?)reaction at the start of the season makes sense, but it's too early. Hopefully Ugarte will help (soon), but the team has to gel and form a stability in a Bruno-led midfield.
Especially after seeing Mainoo and Casemiro getting bodied like that this weekend.
I understand anyone wanting to look ahead. Maybe I have too much faith in ETH based on how he built end rebuilt teams before into overperforming ones. The conditions haven't been great this past season, but the one before it also seemed a bit reliant on Casemiro and Licha (especially the second half of the season). Because of last season and them showing there is still something to try here in the last parts of the season and particularly the FA Cup win, I see why they want to give this a shot still. Conditions are still far from ideal and personally I think Casemiro needs to be more focused, Mainoo more experienced to work as a guarding, controlling and playmaking force behind a player like Bruno, so unless Bruno gets more consistent and reliable in keeping possession, I am not sure if the consistency will come soon enough. Ugarte just got here so will have to adapt and improve his record from the PSG spell.
But it does look more like a team that has thrived under ETH before, especially if (IF) Shaw comes back, and in decent shape at that. But if it keeps at the same level, I think both ETH and MU will have to cut their losses on this match-making.
But how long to decide whether too long is too long?
Ole showed better results than ETH, for sure, but I think ETH would have done more with Ole's material than Ole did.
Thing is also that perhaps Ole would have been better with the injury records and turning the team into a defensive counter attacking team that allowed Bruno to be more Bruno, for instance.
But one of the reasons faith was lost in Ole was that outside of the magic Rashford-Martial-Lingard/Greenwood-Bruno times, or the "is Pogba football's Lebron?" spell of games in his new manager boost, it became clearer and clearer that Ole didn't have many more tricks up his sleeve, except for "we need players with United culture" and then kind of hoping for the best.
Again, ETH shows worse results, but he also shows more management. The management may not be for this team and this club, but I'd wait till at least christmas to really judge this season. Even if the injuries keep on stacking again, ETH has to show ways to build around those instead of hoping Lindelof turns into a tall Licha. With all these CBs might as well play with 3-4 CBs in such cases and go Ole-style until there is a team actually capable to use their legs for his type of game.
I still don't trust Bruno as his 10, but if Amad steps up as a wide playmaker, that would be less of an issue. Or if Rashford and Garnacho run enough, a 4-4-2 with Bruno more on the side would be a safe choice in my book, too. But him as a member of a midfield 3... I don't know. Ugarte would have to be a huge upgrade to Casemiro in this setup.
During the Ole tenure one of the worst parts was the Pogba inconsistency and growing unreliability in his fitness levels.
I think ETH still stands a chance, but clearly he hasn't delivered as of yet. There is way less foundation here than Ole, Mourinho and Van Gaal had, but hopefully there is now the opportunity to build a new one.
Now the (over?)reaction at the start of the season makes sense, but it's too early. Hopefully Ugarte will help (soon), but the team has to gel and form a stability in a Bruno-led midfield.
Especially after seeing Mainoo and Casemiro getting bodied like that this weekend.
I understand anyone wanting to look ahead. Maybe I have too much faith in ETH based on how he built end rebuilt teams before into overperforming ones. The conditions haven't been great this past season, but the one before it also seemed a bit reliant on Casemiro and Licha (especially the second half of the season). Because of last season and them showing there is still something to try here in the last parts of the season and particularly the FA Cup win, I see why they want to give this a shot still. Conditions are still far from ideal and personally I think Casemiro needs to be more focused, Mainoo more experienced to work as a guarding, controlling and playmaking force behind a player like Bruno, so unless Bruno gets more consistent and reliable in keeping possession, I am not sure if the consistency will come soon enough. Ugarte just got here so will have to adapt and improve his record from the PSG spell.
But it does look more like a team that has thrived under ETH before, especially if (IF) Shaw comes back, and in decent shape at that. But if it keeps at the same level, I think both ETH and MU will have to cut their losses on this match-making.
But how long to decide whether too long is too long?
Ole showed better results than ETH, for sure, but I think ETH would have done more with Ole's material than Ole did.
Thing is also that perhaps Ole would have been better with the injury records and turning the team into a defensive counter attacking team that allowed Bruno to be more Bruno, for instance.
But one of the reasons faith was lost in Ole was that outside of the magic Rashford-Martial-Lingard/Greenwood-Bruno times, or the "is Pogba football's Lebron?" spell of games in his new manager boost, it became clearer and clearer that Ole didn't have many more tricks up his sleeve, except for "we need players with United culture" and then kind of hoping for the best.
Again, ETH shows worse results, but he also shows more management. The management may not be for this team and this club, but I'd wait till at least christmas to really judge this season. Even if the injuries keep on stacking again, ETH has to show ways to build around those instead of hoping Lindelof turns into a tall Licha. With all these CBs might as well play with 3-4 CBs in such cases and go Ole-style until there is a team actually capable to use their legs for his type of game.
I still don't trust Bruno as his 10, but if Amad steps up as a wide playmaker, that would be less of an issue. Or if Rashford and Garnacho run enough, a 4-4-2 with Bruno more on the side would be a safe choice in my book, too. But him as a member of a midfield 3... I don't know. Ugarte would have to be a huge upgrade to Casemiro in this setup.
Well we aren’t looking to replace a multiple league winning juggernaut. We are trying to replace a guy who got us to 8th place with a negative GD. Don’t care how Tuchel was at Bayern, he was still a million times better than this Pep Guardiola is my idol who is consistently pulling us back with his insane tactics.
No. You don’t get to set arbitrary rules over what opinions people get to have. People are perfectly entitled to think Ten Hag isn’t good enough and should be replaced now, whilst simultaneously being willing to defer to the new Ineos personnel over who any replacement is. That is a perfectly logical and justifiable stance for any football fan.
Put off by Tuchel finishing third but you want to keep Ten Hag till the end of the season despite us finishing 8th and now showing relegation form in the new season. Waiting for a “better” candidate means sticking by a failing candidate. That’s your prerogative of course, but many of us have higher standards than that.
In my book thinking that any other PL manager could do a better job isn't close to rational - the vast majority wouldn't have the dressing room for more than a few minutes at best, and the pressure of the United job would crush them. Rangnick was highly respected, and he lasted 45 minutes before the squad discarded his approach.
But even if that were the case, those managers aren't gettable. Emery isn't gettable, at least not now (possibly at the end of the season, although there are lots of candidates I'd have above him for that). McKenna is probably feasible, if expensive, to get immediately, but he wouldn't come as a caretaker so it would have to be a permanent appointment, and I'd suggest there are huge question marks over whether he could cope with the United job. But I'm open to being convinced - what is it about his CV that suggests to you he's ready for the job?
As for the so what, I think you're underestimating the damage that a bad managerial appointment can do. Once we've sacked Ten Hag, will you see his tenure as no harm done? I highly doubt it, and if I'm right then by your own logic "so what, sack him and move on" is a dangerous approach. For sure it's one I don't agree with, I'd much rather us do some succession planning and bring in managers we expect to succeed, rather than setting the bar as low as "worth a shot".
The bit in bold is, once again, a deliberate misrepresentation of my point. It seems to be a common theme with posters who want the manager gone immediately, a rather tedious refusal to discern between "literally nobody better" and "nobody immediately attainable that is worth not waiting for the summer when we can bring in a top manager", which is much closer to my position.
As to your point that our knowledge base is limited in comparison to Dan Ashworth and the other execs, I agree. But those knowledgeable folks have opted to stick with Ten Hag. If you want to defer to their knowledge for choice of manager, well they've chosen the incumbent. Nobody is infallible of course, but you can't make the appeal to authority only when it lines up with your thoughts.
I would also laugh at the mere notion of us going near Poch.
I'm not setting arbitrary rules, I'm simply challenging posters to actually think about their opinions. Wanting Ten Hag replaced now, but having no idea who should do it and assuming that an imaginary manager is out there that INEOS will find, isn't logical, nor rational. It is justifiable, but the justification is an irrational dislike of the current manager, nothing more.
I think our standards are different, I reject the concept that yours are "higher". I'm looking at the long term success of the club, rather than the short term approach that bringing in Tuchel now would represent.
While I hugely disagree with your defence of EtH, I fully agree with this part. As EtH isn't sacked yet, everybody who wants him sacked now is disagreeing with Ashworth. So it doesn't make much sense to call for Ashworth to name someone better than EtH when Ashworth isn't willing to make that move at all at the moment.
It's absolutely a valid opinion to see Tuchel as the right for the long term approach. He is tactically versatile, successful everywhere he went and known to prefer a setup where he can focus on actually coaching a team instead of doing a DoF's work on top.
Which candidates do you prefer next summer? I don't think Tuchel is a bad option in November if things are terrible, but also see the point in waiting for the best option.
You weren't asking sincerely, that's ludicrous, and accusing my of being dishonest in a post that has a line like that is puerile. I haven't personally insulted you at all, I'd appreciate you to show enough maturity to do likewise.
You stated that "no manager is guaranteed to be a success", yet I have never once stated that a guarantee is necessary. It is however possible, and basic due diligence, to have a reason to expect a new manager to be an improvement. That's all I'm asking for from posters, if the current manager is as bad as you say it should be very easy to do so.
Can you provide the post where you provided the list of middle ground names? I've clicked back through the history chain and the only name I've seen in your posts is Tuchel, my reasons for disliking whom are all over this thread. If you have another name, or the list you refer to, some sensible reasoning why they'd they be good choice, and similarly sensible reasoning why they'd be attainable, then I'm all ears.
People do have some genuine gripes against him, and his constant RM links never did him any favours.I can’t help but laugh almost hysterically at people who name him one of our worst ever signings, I think I saw some mug say he was as bad as Antony and that was in the last week
He was a fecking joy to watch when he was on it, which was more often than people want to admit.
But on performance alone, you cannot call him a flop. Fully agree on the bolded part. We never got the best out of him because who chose to play him 10-15 yards deeper than he should have played. Even France right now are missing him.
An absolute baller on his day. His 7/10 performances were considered disappointing because of his price tag and potential, which was unfair imo. Saw someone saying he played bad 90% of the time, and that's just revisionist bs.
Can we drop the tiring ‚name a new manager’ debate?
We can discuss and criticize Ten Hag without suggesting a replacement.
And lots of posters have very obviously and carefully thought through their opinions, and then put forward detailed arguments about why various replacements would do better than Ten Hag. But each and every time you ignore them, whilst dishonestly challenging everyone to do what’s already been done numerous times in this thread, parroting this nonsense about “imaginary” managers. Or you just dismiss their suggestions for baseless reasons, like managers not being “available”, despite the fact that clubs come to agreements over “unavailable” managers every single season.
Letting yet another full season tank under Ten Hag is not looking after our long term prospects. Not sure why you think it is? Missing out on the CL again is going to damage our longer term prospects in a very specific and quantifiable way. That is why so many want him changed asap.
Only Pep or Klopp will do!!! I’d even say no thank you to Ancelotti!!!
I'd want someone to come in to build on the style we're trying to implement so far, at least in part. Building from the back, enticing the press, our own high press and counter press, etc.
Nagelsmann would be my dream appointment, I know he's with the German national team but I think we could make an enticing case for him. Another worth keeping an eye on is Xabi Alonso, he's still relatively wet behind the ears but if he has another great season this season that's a big plus, as at the moment there's the risk of a one season wonder.
He would be stupid if he didn't know that and he isn't stupid. He is very sure of himself though. I suspect the transfer thing was a matter of principle more than anything. Realistically it's always going to be difficult to buy a player the head coach won't select. Sancho's brief return was proof of that.
Could you refer to a couple of the detailed arguments? Quote the posts, as then I can address them. To my mind the vast majority of replies I've had have boiled down to "not my problem" when asked who they'd suggest. I know I'm still waiting for your carefully thought through opinion and detailed argument about various replacements, I'd love to hear them. I'm very open to being convinced, so if they are as you suggest I'm excited.
What's this about?
Where did you get this info from Hobbers? How did they fail?
It is absolutely valid, I agree with that. I simply disagree with the opinion, for the reasons I've stated.
But I commend you for having a name and reasoning to back your opinion, that's a rarity in this thread at the moment.
That depends on the discussion though, doesn't it. Discuss and criticise is fine, and his performance here is absolutely worthy of criticism.
But if you want him to be replaced, then rationally that requires a replacement you expect will do a better job. And if you want it done immediately, it requires that the replacement you expect will do a better job to be attainable immediately.
I'm in the camp that it's best to wait until the summer, as the pool of attainable candidates will be much deeper then.
No one's defending anyone. I never said he was, he had to go when he went, everyone had thrown the towel in at that point, but I don't feel it's even subjective at this point to say we played our best football under Ole. Side point, I don't think a cup where you play the likes of Coventry in a semi final is better than a cup where you play the likes of Roma and Milan.
If you agree with someone on one thing, you are not locked into agreeing with them on everything, and vice versa.
It’s perfectly reasonable to be in favour of the club sacking a current manager right now, whilst also offering support to whoever they choose as a new manager if and when they move on the old one.
What makes you think it will be? Usually managers are replaced when things go bad, which happens at any point during and between seasons. The minority of jobs opens up at seasons end due to retirements or similar stuff, and those are often lining up successors early (although not always). So I don't believe that the pool will be much deeper. Maybe a bit, but not so significantly that it would justify throwing this season away.
Nagelsmann might be even more available in November than in June. World Cup isn't until 2026.
I don't rate ETH as a coach but our main problem is our terrible transfer record. ETH is less involved as from this summer which is a good thing. But this group of players are not top4 material.
No. You can reread the thread if you want to see them again. They are there, despite your protestations that they exist, despite the fact that you have responded to many of them whilst ignoring their key points. I genuinely don’t believe you’re arguing in good faith, because I myself have put forward names and arguments and you have just dismissed them or ignored them.
That's true, obviously. But it's also fair to ask who you want to replace EtH when you want him sacked. Being open to other options in case somebody else gets the job is not the same as having no idea of your own.
No. People get fired for being bad at their job at all times. That kicks off the recruitment process. An existing employee takes up that role on temporary basis.
Less involved? The major signings are all Dutch/ ex dutch league players.
If you need to build such a silly strawman, you don't see.As for Ruud being better, you can't prove it as that's impossible, but you should have some reason to think so. Otherwise it's baseless.
With regard your examples, in every single case there's easily attainable information that can inform the decision. Will I like this vacation spot? Surely you'd check out the local amenities and attractions to see if they line up with your interests, what local dining is available, is the climate to your liking, etc. Choosing to go into something like that completely blind isn't necessary, the same is true of appointing a new manager.
I've banged the Ten Hag drum before, I've admitted now I'm open to seeing him replaced. Your attempt to boil my position down to simply the opposite of yours speaks to either an inability or refusal to see beyond black and white over this topic. I'll restate my actual position, better to debate that than any strawmen:
Because Ole was their guy.
There was an interview posted during the summer.
That requires an existing employee to be up to doing the job on a temporary basis. Otherwise the recruitment happens before the replacement.
So who's the existing employee who won't make things worse? And what makes you think so? If you can make a sensible case for why Ruud for example would make a good caretaker, I'm all ears.
I’ve already made the argument that I think Ten Hag is so poor that there is quite a good number of managers who would be an improvement. I’ve already listed some of those along with references to why their records are better, and why they’d likely get us playing better football and performing better as a team. The Hilton ignores all that whilst asking for names, despite this thread being full of names and full of arguments. It’s dishonest and it’s disingenuous but ultimately, it’s nothing more than a distraction tactic.
We literally beat City and Liverpool ffs
And Ole couldn't even beat fecking Villareal over 120 minutes.
Ugarte and Yoro both came from the French league and have never played under EtH before.
- Status