SB16
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- Apr 23, 2017
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Someone on Twitter mentioned that Ole seems to be only United manager who's judged solely on his lows, and infrequently on the (many) highs. Continues to be true even now.
Then close this thread if the discussion can only happen once the powers that be have taken the decision. Right now I would take Tuchel in a heartbeat. Proven and someone with the resume to manage a big club and winning at a big club. Not sure how that is even a question of his suitability when we have a ego maniac at the helm who is failing miserably in the league.
No. You are advocating for anyone who wants ETH sacked should also name his replacement. Which has been pointed out that we do not possess the knowledge for that. I/we do think we do have the knowledge to see ETH is failing and we are underachieving. So I want him gone and expect INEOS/Ashworth etc to know who to get. Just because I can't make a replacement doesn't mean there's no one. Otherwise teams would never move on from any manager
Well we aren’t looking to replace a multiple league winning juggernaut. We are trying to replace a guy who got us to 8th place with a negative GD. Don’t care how Tuchel was at Bayern, he was still a million times better than this Pep Guardiola is my idol who is consistently pulling us back with his insane tactics.I'm just trying to follow your logic - you've repeatedly deferred to the board's choice of replacement, but refuse to defer to their actual current choice of replacement, which is nobody. You can absolutely disagree with that, but in order to do so you need to provide an alternative.
As for Tuchel, I'm quite put off by his poor performance at Bayern, finishing third in a one horse race in Germany was poor, but well done for finally offering an argument in favour of someone. Personally I disagree, as I'd rather wait for a better candidate.
As for "ego maniac", if that's exclusionary then you'd be left with very few managers to pick from.
I'm just trying to follow your logic - you've repeatedly deferred to the board's choice of replacement, but refuse to defer to their actual current choice of replacement, which is nobody. You can absolutely disagree with that, but in order to do so you need to provide an alternative.
As for Tuchel, I'm quite put off by his poor performance at Bayern, finishing third in a one horse race in Germany was poor, but well done for finally offering an argument in favour of someone. Personally I disagree, as I'd rather wait for a better candidate.
As for "ego maniac", if that's exclusionary then you'd be left with very few managers to pick from.
But people have made several suggestions for suitable replacements - and we're not professional sporting directors, so our knowledge base is limited in comparison to Dan Ashworth + the other execs. who might have input.
I personally have advocated for Keiran McKenna or Unai Emery, I think either would be worth a shot. My point is, so what if they prove not to be the right choice? You sack them and move on again!
Going back to your car analogy...our engine is not "struggling", our car is broken down and in the middle of nowhere! I tend to agree with other posters, I think ANY of the other 19 top flight managers could do a better job. Now, that doesn't mean you go out and get Dyche or Glasner because that would be ridiculous, but the idea that there is literally nobody in World football who could come in and manage this club is bizarre.
Let’s say we hired Poch instead of EtH and EtH went to Chelsea. And EtH performed completely the same at Chelsea as he is performing at United now.
Now suppose Poch is also failing with us in similar fashion and we are discussing possible replacements. EtH has just been sacked by Chelsea and is available.
I am sure that the same people saying “no good replacements” would have been laughing off a suggestion that we go for EtH and would have been bigging up Poch endlessly.
No. You don’t get to set arbitrary rules over what opinions people get to have. People are perfectly entitled to think Ten Hag isn’t good enough and should be replaced now, whilst simultaneously being willing to defer to the new Ineos personnel over who any replacement is. That is a perfectly logical and justifiable stance for any football fan.
Put off by Tuchel finishing third but you want to keep Ten Hag till the end of the season despite us finishing 8th and now showing relegation form in the new season. Waiting for a “better” candidate means sticking by a failing candidate. That’s your prerogative of course, but many of us have higher standards than that.
While I hugely disagree with your defence of EtH, I fully agree with this part. As EtH isn't sacked yet, everybody who wants him sacked now is disagreeing with Ashworth. So it doesn't make much sense to call for Ashworth to name someone better than EtH when Ashworth isn't willing to make that move at all at the moment.As to your point that our knowledge base is limited in comparison to Dan Ashworth and the other execs, I agree. But those knowledgeable folks have opted to stick with Ten Hag. If you want to defer to their knowledge for choice of manager, well they've chosen the incumbent. Nobody is infallible of course, but you can't make the appeal to authority only when it lines up with your thoughts.
It's absolutely a valid opinion to see Tuchel as the right for the long term approach. He is tactically versatile, successful everywhere he went and known to prefer a setup where he can focus on actually coaching a team instead of doing a DoF's work on top.I think our standards are different, I reject the concept that yours are "higher". I'm looking at the long term success of the club, rather than the short term approach that bringing in Tuchel now would represent.
Which candidates do you prefer next summer? I don't think Tuchel is a bad option in November if things are terrible, but also see the point in waiting for the best option.I'm just trying to follow your logic - you've repeatedly deferred to the board's choice of replacement, but refuse to defer to their actual current choice of replacement, which is nobody. You can absolutely disagree with that, but in order to do so you need to provide an alternative.
As for Tuchel, I'm quite put off by his poor performance at Bayern, finishing third in a one horse race in Germany was poor, but well done for finally offering an argument in favour of someone. Personally I disagree, as I'd rather wait for a better candidate.
As for "ego maniac", if that's exclusionary then you'd be left with very few managers to pick from.
You are being remarkably dishonest. I have never said or argued that a manager can be a guaranteed success or a complete unknown with no middle ground. I have already provided a list of middle ground names, as have many others, along with arguments as to why they would be worth a try over sticking with our current failing manager.
All you do is dismiss each and every one as “unavailable” without acknowledging the fact that “unavailable” managers can still be obtained. You said I was being catty when I questioned whether you are new to football but I was asking sincerely - because you genuinely seem unaware of how football works, or the fact that managers leave clubs to join new clubs even mid season.
If you are not going to engage honestly and instead keep repeating things that everyone knows are not true, then it’s not worth engaging with you.
People do have some genuine gripes against him, and his constant RM links never did him any favours.I can’t help but laugh almost hysterically at people who name him one of our worst ever signings, I think I saw some mug say he was as bad as Antony and that was in the last week
He was a fecking joy to watch when he was on it, which was more often than people want to admit.
Can we drop the tiring ‚name a new manager’ debate?You weren't asking sincerely, that's ludicrous, and accusing my of being dishonest in a post that has a line like that is puerile. I haven't personally insulted you at all, I'd appreciate you to show enough maturity to do likewise.
You stated that "no manager is guaranteed to be a success", yet I have never once stated that a guarantee is necessary. It is however possible, and basic due diligence, to have a reason to expect a new manager to be an improvement. That's all I'm asking for from posters, if the current manager is as bad as you say it should be very easy to do so.
Can you provide the post where you provided the list of middle ground names? I've clicked back through the history chain and the only name I've seen in your posts is Tuchel, my reasons for disliking whom are all over this thread. If you have another name, or the list you refer to, some sensible reasoning why they'd they be good choice, and similarly sensible reasoning why they'd be attainable, then I'm all ears.
I'm not setting arbitrary rules, I'm simply challenging posters to actually think about their opinions. Wanting Ten Hag replaced now, but having no idea who should do it and assuming that an imaginary manager is out there that INEOS will find, isn't logical, nor rational. It is justifiable, but the justification is an irrational dislike of the current manager, nothing more.
I think our standards are different, I reject the concept that yours are "higher". I'm looking at the long term success of the club, rather than the short term approach that bringing in Tuchel now would represent.
Only Pep or Klopp will do!!! I’d even say no thank you to Ancelotti!!!We beat city in the corresponding fixture and completely outplayed Sevilla in the first leg, throwing away a two goal lead we should really have added to.
The mistakes of DdG and Maguire in the second leg precipitated their demise, with only a contract wrangle saving the latter.
Quite a few cases for the prosecution, but not quite those.
With the exception of Pep and Klopp, what are these other managers winning?
Emery has done well turning Villa into Spurs, I grant, but EtH has actually won honours in spite of a heinous injury spree.
There are cogent arguments for his removal, but winning trophies is not (yet) one of them.
It's quite simple: there is no suitable replacement.
Suitable as in returning United to Fergie Time.
Disagree, chief. Didn't factor the injury crisis nor the trophy we won.
Preach.
Just tell us who you want as the new manager.
We all know who and what you are against.
Who are you for?
Names, please, criteria later.
Yep.
The Southgate route.
Which candidates do you prefer next summer? I don't think Tuchel is a bad option in November if things are terrible, but also see the point in waiting for the best option.
Are you sure he went into this season thinking he was in a precarious position though?
Won the Cup, thinks injuries and players not following instructions are the reason his tactics didn't work last season, didn't get sacked, then got his contract extended.
He always seems quite sure of himself, there must be a reason he didn't sign the new contract. Maybe it's because he wanted to keep his transfer powers.
And lots of posters have very obviously and carefully thought through their opinions, and then put forward detailed arguments about why various replacements would do better than Ten Hag. But each and every time you ignore them, whilst dishonestly challenging everyone to do what’s already been done numerous times in this thread, parroting this nonsense about “imaginary” managers. Or you just dismiss their suggestions for baseless reasons, like managers not being “available”, despite the fact that clubs come to agreements over “unavailable” managers every single season.
Letting yet another full season tank under Ten Hag is not looking after our long term prospects. Not sure why you think it is? Missing out on the CL again is going to damage our longer term prospects in a very specific and quantifiable way. That is why so many want him changed asap.
The one thing that ETH has managed to do, somehow, is keep the players behind him, normally it is the attitude of the players that is the final straw for a manager, not just at utd, across the board, once the players lose faith (and it is obvious on the pitch) then there is no way back.
Given Casemiro's reaction to being subbed, given Ugarte's supposed comments about fitness, I am not sure if that ice is not now very thin.
I and clearly a lot of other posters, can see the writing is on the wall, it may be September, he may be given to Xmas, but he ain't going to be the utd manager by the end of the season, better to rip the band aid off now, make the most of the season, the January window and be in a better position into the summer.
And yes we can argue about who should be the next man in, is RVN good enough as a caretaker, do we take somebody just until the end of the season or take on a new manger such as Tuchel now despite him not being most peoples idea of a perfect solution for the long term?
I would also like to throw Carrick's name into the ring.
I would absolutely love for ETH to magically turn things around, for us to start playing well, actually performing to the quality we should be able to with this squad, that does not mean winning everything, we are nowhere near that level, but we shouldn't be struggling week in week out against, lets face it every team we have played over the last 18 months, I would love to eat humble pie, I do not really care a fig about ETH I care about Utd.
Where did you get this info from Hobbers? How did they fail?Except the Ineos board (Brailsford Blanc and Ratcliffe) tried to get Tuchel and failed in negotiations. And tried to get RdZ and failed in negotiations.
It's absolutely a valid opinion to see Tuchel as the right for the long term approach. He is tactically versatile, successful everywhere he went and known to prefer a setup where he can focus on actually coaching a team instead of doing a DoF's work on top.
Can we drop the tiring ‚name a new manager’ debate?
We can discuss and criticize Ten Hag without suggesting a replacement.
No one's defending anyone. I never said he was, he had to go when he went, everyone had thrown the towel in at that point, but I don't feel it's even subjective at this point to say we played our best football under Ole. Side point, I don't think a cup where you play the likes of Coventry in a semi final is better than a cup where you play the likes of Roma and Milan.Mate stop, he clearly wasn't good enough ffs. And "European Final"? Just say the EL Final. For me, winning the FA Cup is better than winning the EL. You can dress up ETH's reign too: 3rd place, 3 finals, 2 Cups.
We've appointed poorly since Fergie left, that's a fact. Not one of them deserves any sentinmanalty. Had Ole won the 2 cups that ETH did, you can guarantee the narrative among some would be that the 2 cup wins were brilliant.
People need to stop defending their favourite and just admit that all of them were poor to varying degrees. And Ole's only bad spell? I mean, that spell was particularly atrocious, but there were plenty of spells were we looked utter shite and were scraping through games. There was a reason in real-time why so many wanted him gone. This revisionism is crazy.
While I hugely disagree with your defence of EtH, I fully agree with this part. As EtH isn't sacked yet, everybody who wants him sacked now is disagreeing with Ashworth. So it doesn't make much sense to call for Ashworth to name someone better than EtH when Ashworth isn't willing to make that move at all at the moment.
What makes you think it will be? Usually managers are replaced when things go bad, which happens at any point during and between seasons. The minority of jobs opens up at seasons end due to retirements or similar stuff, and those are often lining up successors early (although not always). So I don't believe that the pool will be much deeper. Maybe a bit, but not so significantly that it would justify throwing this season away.I'm in the camp that it's best to wait until the summer, as the pool of attainable candidates will be much deeper then.
Nagelsmann might be even more available in November than in June. World Cup isn't until 2026.I'd want someone to come in to build on the style we're trying to implement so far, at least in part. Building from the back, enticing the press, our own high press and counter press, etc.
Nagelsmann would be my dream appointment, I know he's with the German national team but I think we could make an enticing case for him. Another worth keeping an eye on is Xabi Alonso, he's still relatively wet behind the ears but if he has another great season this season that's a big plus, as at the moment there's the risk of a one season wonder.
Could you refer to a couple of the detailed arguments? Quote the posts, as then I can address them. To my mind the vast majority of replies I've had have boiled down to "not my problem" when asked who they'd suggest. I know I'm still waiting for your carefully thought through opinion and detailed argument about various replacements, I'd love to hear them. I'm very open to being convinced, so if they are as you suggest I'm excited.
That's true, obviously. But it's also fair to ask who you want to replace EtH when you want him sacked. Being open to other options in case somebody else gets the job is not the same as having no idea of your own.If you agree with someone on one thing, you are not locked into agreeing with them on everything, and vice versa.
It’s perfectly reasonable to be in favour of the club sacking a current manager right now, whilst also offering support to whoever they choose as a new manager if and when they move on the old one.
No. People get fired for being bad at their job at all times. That kicks off the recruitment process. An existing employee takes up that role on temporary basis.But if you want him to be replaced, then rationally that requires a replacement you expect will do a better job.
Less involved? The major signings are all Dutch/ ex dutch league players.Nagelsmann might be even more available in November than in June. World Cup isn't until 2026.
I don't rate ETH as a coach but our main problem is our terrible transfer record. ETH is less involved as from this summer which is a good thing. But this group of players are not top4 material.
Ah, I see. Short of Klopp, Pep and Ancelotti, no one is good enough.
I literally gave you a list. You indicated that only two fit “our football”. Fine, go for one of them then.
It’s a crap argument, mate. All of the managers I listed are more accomplished than Ten Hag, with the exception of Potter. I think the real reason for your pushback is you have been banging the Ten Hag drum and you’re reluctant to admit you were wrong. I actually do think that Ruud would be better. I can’t prove it, and neither can you.
We make decisions all the time in life where we don’t know the answer beforehand. Will I like this vacation spot? Will the food at this new restaurant be good? Will my gift be appreciated? You have to take chances on things, especially when you are miserable and need change.
I don't know of any available managers that would be willing to come in as a caretaker that I think would provide much of an improvement, and the managers I think could provide a temporary improvement (Tuchel for example) would only take the job long term, and in that case I don't think they're good enough for us to tie ourselves to them for multiple years when we could likely get a much more suitable candidate in as a replacement for Ten Hag in the summer.
Because Ole was their guy.There's always a group of fans in any club trying to remember the good times with the previous failed manager when their current manager is also failing. I don't get it.
There was an interview posted during the summer.Less involved? The major signings are all Dutch/ ex dutch league players.
No. People get fired for being bad at their job at all times. That kicks off the recruitment process. An existing employee takes up that role on temporary basis.
That's true, obviously. But it's also fair to ask who you want to replace EtH when you want him sacked. Being open to other options in case somebody else gets the job is not the same as having no idea of your own.
No one's defending anyone. I never said he was, he had to go when he went, everyone had thrown the towel in at that point, but I don't feel it's even subjective at this point to say we played our best football under Ole. Side point, I don't think a cup where you play the likes of Coventry in a semi final is better than a cup where you play the likes of Roma and Milan.
Ugarte and Yoro both came from the French league and have never played under EtH before.Less involved? The major signings are all Dutch/ ex dutch league players.