It is definitely and purely subjective, but I would never use the word "trophy" about a cup unless it's the CL or if the team wins the PL.
Especially not for United.
So if EtH for fame gets the label as "someone who guarantees trophies" then I'd never think about the cups that we used to call the "Mickey Mouse Cup".
People need to humble themselves. There is no point living in the past.. isnt this what we all bantered Liverpool fans for? Now 15 years later, you are the same.. living in the past.
We are not in a position to win the PL or CL, so what we should just give up on other cups because you are living in the past?
There's a reason for that though, and it's down to the coaching and culture ETH has instilled over the past 3 years despite an obscene amount of money spent. Just because this manager has us nowhere near the standards we should be in doesn't necessarily mean fans should change their outlook, and own standards based on how the club should be performing and operating as a club.
True, there is no reason to discard what he has actually won. The trophies he won should at this point simply make the difference between "Thank you very much for winning us stuff Erik, but we don't believe the current development is good for the club in the long run" versus "Just f*** off Erik" when he finally gets sacked.Claiming a trophy isn’t a trophy unless it’s one you regard the highest, is a bit bizarre. And smacks a little of using as a tool to disparage Bald.
There’s nothing factually incorrect in the statement re: winning most trophies (after *) in the last 2 years, unless you introduce your own variables.
The sentiment that some trophies are regarded higher than others, League and Champions League, isn’t a new concept though. It could, fairly, be pointed out that Bald has won none of these, but I don’t think her’s ever claimed to have done so.
There's a massive flaw in assuming the culture is instilled solely by the manager. And ten hag has been here barely over 2 years, not 3. He actually developed a good boost to our mentality and culture for year 1.There's a reason for that though, and it's down to the coaching and culture ETH has instilled over the past 3 years despite an obscene amount of money spent. Just because this manager has us nowhere near the standards we should be in doesn't necessarily mean fans should change their outlook, and own standards based on how the club should be performing and operating as a club.
You are right. As I said it is a personal opinion. Actually, it's more of a feeling than an opinion. I never thought about cups as trophies, and it is mostly because of living in the past.Claiming a trophy isn’t a trophy unless it’s one you regard the highest, is a bit bizarre. And smacks a little of using as a tool to disparage Bald.
noIf we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?
But say EtH was to be sacked after this season (perhaps after another cup and 8th).
In 10 years if he is fortunate enough to have been the last successful trophy vinner for Manchester United, one would not think back on it as a success. Would we?
Somehow, I hope not. I am not sure why. Depends on the manner of the defeat. But he did praise Mourinho (we are both winners) and rightly so. Perhaps he knows he will meet someone more than his match tactically.If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?
Personally, I think the national cups are a waste, and PL teams should not have to play in them, or be enforced strict rules as to how many first teamers can play in them. Whine about too many games, well this is a good place to cut. The problem is that the players and managers (and maybe fans) want to win them, so they pick their best players after some rounds.No because standards and success is not the same.
Whenever someone mentions most successful football club in England, atm its Liverpool, would you take out the cup competitions and then judge it?
If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?
only if we lose 10-0 and Mourinho emptied a tube of whipped cream on his head.If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?
Personally, I think the national cups are a waste, and PL teams should not have to play in them, or be enforced strict rules as to how many first teamers can play in them. Whine about too many games, well this is a good place to cut. The problem is that the players and managers (and maybe fans) want to win them, so they pick their best players after some rounds.
Then again, cups are good for the sport when David meets Goliath at Insert Random Field Moors Here and for the city/kids/families.
That does not make much sense since you're only in one at a time.So you only want to leave the PL / CL, in that case why not remove every European competition except the CL as well then? That way can reduce the games even more?
I do understand the trophy angle but we've had 5 permanent managers since SAF retired. 3 of them have won a trophy and some might even try to argue that the Community Shield counts for Moyes.
ETH has spoken about how United haven't reached the standard before he was the manager but he's not really accomplished much more than LVG and I don't think he's matched Jose in terms of his achievements here. It is something he can rightfully talk about but his narrative about these two trophies is a bit tiresome. He hasn't done something no other manager has done, nor is he moving the needle that we should be so grateful for the FA Cup and League Cup wins.
If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?
I don't even think they necessarily need to do that, but there needs to be consistency that we're close over a 2 year period. I look at what Arteta's done and if he leaves Arsenal at the end of this season but they finish a close 2nd to City or Liverpool and he makes the CL semi-finals, I think that would be considered a pretty unanimous success.I agree with this but what people need to understand is, any person / manager will do the same. I mean Ten Hag surely knows that the team is not achieved success and he cant be happy with the way the season has gone.
When your questioned about the same thing over and over again, its a go to.. yeah but I have won trophies. Its the same thing with us fans, when the rivals banter us and Arsenal talk about their season, what do we say... but what did you win? We won the FA cup.
We all know, the only manager we will call a success is if he wins us a PL /CL.
I don't even think they necessarily need to do that, but there needs to be consistency that we're close over a 2 year period. I look at what Arteta's done and if he leaves Arsenal at the end of this season but they finish a close 2nd to City or Liverpool and he makes the CL semi-finals, I think that would be considered a pretty unanimous success.
We've had a few two 2nd place and two 3rd place finishes since SAF where we've been mile off the top and we've only made the CL QFs twice (under Moyes and Ole). I think we're in a position, rightly or wrongly where if a manager gets us to becoming semi-serious PL or CL contenders (that never cross the line) that would be a success.
People need to humble themselves. There is no point living in the past.. isnt this what we all bantered Liverpool fans for? Now 15 years later, you are the same.. living in the past.
Regardless of what you think about the manager, a trophy is still a trophy. Calling the FA cup a Mickey Mouse cup. I get it you would rather not win a trophy unless its the PL or CL.
We are not in a position to win the PL or CL, so what we should just give up on other cups because you are living in the past?
He can lose in PL. We got no chance this season finish 4th/5th to qualify for CL. EL is out only hope to qualify next season CL. We need to win EL. Go all out in EL!If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?
One of the main reasons we are not in a position to compete for the PL or CL is the fact that we have a manager who is underperforming massively despite being backed to the tune of £600+ million.
So in that context, using that same manager’s league cup or FA cup wins as a defence for his failings in more important competitions doesn’t make any sense. Other managers have turned lesser squads with less money into teams that are competing in those more prestigious competitions, and that is the standard we should be holding Ten Hag to.
There’s this bizarre method of defending Ten Hag which keeps popping up here, whereby his own failings are used as the benchmark by which to judge his other very minor successes, instead of using actual success as a benchmark. And this tactic reflects a worrying lowering of standards.
That’s how we end up with fans going on about how much our performances have improved this season, just because they’re slightly better than they were under him last season, ignoring the fact that it’s only in the context of them being historically bad under him last year that what we’re seeing now could possibly be spun as an “improvement”. Against any reasonable external or pre-Ten Hag benchmark, our performances this season are not an improvement on anything. They are still just not good enough.
If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?
Yup, and a lot of posters warned before the start of the season that any improvement over last season would be hailed by a large portion of the fanbase as "success", because the benchmark now is 8th place and negative GD.One of the main reasons we are not in a position to compete for the PL or CL is the fact that we have a manager who is underperforming massively despite being backed to the tune of £600+ million.
So in that context, using that same manager’s league cup or FA cup wins as a defence for his failings in more important competitions doesn’t make any sense. Other managers have turned lesser squads with less money into teams that are competing in those more prestigious competitions, and that is the standard we should be holding Ten Hag to.
There’s this bizarre method of defending Ten Hag which keeps popping up here, whereby his own failings are used as the benchmark by which to judge his other very minor successes, instead of using actual success as a benchmark. And this tactic reflects a worrying lowering of standards.
That’s how we end up with fans going on about how much our performances have improved this season, just because they’re slightly better than they were under him last season, ignoring the fact that it’s only in the context of them being historically bad under him last year that what we’re seeing now could possibly be spun as an “improvement”. Against any reasonable external or pre-Ten Hag benchmark, our performances this season are not an improvement on anything. They are still just not good enough.
Proper Manchester United fans would never call the FA Cup a Mickey Mouse Cup ffsIt is definitely and purely subjective, but I would never use the word "trophy" about a cup unless it's the CL or if the team wins the PL.
Especially not for United.
So if EtH for fame gets the label as "someone who guarantees trophies" then I'd never think about the cups that we used to call the "Mickey Mouse Cup".
He should be, but going by INEOS track record so far it's unlikely and we'll just continue ploughing on as if nothing has happened, like an Ostrich burying it's head in the sand.
This is a load of nonsense.Personally, I think the national cups are a waste, and PL teams should not have to play in them, or be enforced strict rules as to how many first teamers can play in them. Whine about too many games, well this is a good place to cut. The problem is that the players and managers (and maybe fans) want to win them, so they pick their best players after some rounds.
Then again, cups are good for the sport when David meets Goliath at Insert Random Field Moors Here and for the city/kids/families.
Proper Manchester United fans would never call the FA Cup a Mickey Mouse Cup ffs
You mean INEOS track record over the last 8 months? Where they have not hired or sacked a manager? Interesting to see track records now are limited to 8 months..
If you talk about INEOS track record in general, go have a look at how many managers they have sacked at Nice.
They won the CL that year tooThis is a load of nonsense.
The FA Cup is a fantastic tournament and beating the divs in May to win it was wonderful.
I also find it mad when people moan about other United fans celebrating and valuing domestic cup wins. Real Madrid had a full on trophy parade when they won the Copa Del Rey in 2014. Were they small time for doing that?
city won the EFL Cup 4 years in a row onceBoth FA Cup and League Cup are nice to have trophies for big clubs - the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea won’t spend a huge amount of time thinking about them but they are not meaningless.
They are very good achievements for middle of the pack teams, even great in case of FA Cup. I am talking the likes of Villa, Spurs, West Ham here. All would be delighted to win them as they are unlikely to win the league or CL.
They are incredible achievements for clubs below that, both of them. Basically historical feats.
Where ten Hag wants to have our aspirations is probably middle of the pack, as it suits him perfectly and helps him build his image of serial winner punching above our weight. He probably does not aspire to win the league or CL anyway.
The parade was in April before the season had finished. https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...l-madrid-celebrate-copa-del-rey-victory-videoThey won the CL that year too
I don't think that's true. Everyone remembers the classic title races of the 90s and 2000s, for example - even the teams that ultimately came up short.I keep saying this but for all Arsenal's progress in recent seasons. They have nothing to show for it. Nobody will remember their 2nd place finishes in 10 years.
Both FA Cup and League Cup are nice to have trophies for big clubs - the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea won’t spend a huge amount of time thinking about them but they are not meaningless. League Cup is secondary here of course.
They are very good achievements for middle of the pack teams, even great in case of FA Cup. I am talking the likes of Villa, Spurs, West Ham here. All would be delighted to win them as they are unlikely to win the league or CL.
They are incredible achievements for clubs below that, both of them. Basically historical feats.
Where ten Hag wants to have our aspirations is probably middle of the pack, as it suits him perfectly and helps him build his image of serial winner punching above our weight. He probably does not aspire to win the league or CL anyway, they are well out of his reach.
At United so far. They've had more than one opportunity to pull the trigger, arguably three now.
As would I but I'd rather be in Arsenal's position after 3 years than ours, despite an FA Cup and League Cup.Personally, I wouldn't call Arteta a success if he leaves and Arsenal dont win a PL/CL. I would take a title, 5th, 8th in 3 years over coming 2nd in 3 years in a row.
