Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

[Sarni]

A cup is a trophy, so I don’t see that there is any ground to challenge that factual statement by ETH. I agree though that it falls to acknowledge the fact that all trophies are not equal. We could win the League Cup every year but if we also finished 8th each season then that would rightly be seen as a disaster.

I think it would be considered a success by a certain individual currently in charge of us.

 

[Shark]

It is definitely and purely subjective, but I would never use the word "trophy" about a cup unless it's the CL or if the team wins the PL.
Especially not for United.

So if EtH for fame gets the label as "someone who guarantees trophies" then I'd never think about the cups that we used to call the "Mickey Mouse Cup".

These cups, be it the league or FA cup should be just stepping stones for a club like United. A cup to win to build momentum towards going for the bigger ones and progressing as a side. The problem under ETH is that winning both of these cups hasn't resulted in us progressing mentally or as a footballing team.

 

[romufc]

It is definitely and purely subjective, but I would never use the word "trophy" about a cup unless it's the CL or if the team wins the PL.
Especially not for United.

So if EtH for fame gets the label as "someone who guarantees trophies" then I'd never think about the cups that we used to call the "Mickey Mouse Cup".

People need to humble themselves. There is no point living in the past.. isnt this what we all bantered Liverpool fans for? Now 15 years later, you are the same.. living in the past.

Regardless of what you think about the manager, a trophy is still a trophy. Calling the FA cup a Mickey Mouse cup. I get it you would rather not win a trophy unless its the PL or CL.

We are not in a position to win the PL or CL, so what we should just give up on other cups because you are living in the past?

 

[Shark]

People need to humble themselves. There is no point living in the past.. isnt this what we all bantered Liverpool fans for? Now 15 years later, you are the same.. living in the past.

We are not in a position to win the PL or CL, so what we should just give up on other cups because you are living in the past?

There's a reason for that though, and it's down to the coaching and culture ETH has instilled over the past 3 years despite an obscene amount of money spent. Just because this manager has us nowhere near the standards we should be in doesn't necessarily mean fans should change their outlook, and own standards based on how the club should be performing and operating as a club.

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

Claiming a trophy isn’t a trophy unless it’s one you regard the highest, is a bit bizarre. And smacks a little of using as a tool to disparage Bald.

There’s nothing factually incorrect in the statement re: winning most trophies (after *) in the last 2 years, unless you introduce your own variables.

The sentiment that some trophies are regarded higher than others, League and Champions League, isn’t a new concept though. It could, fairly, be pointed out that Bald has won none of these, but I don’t think her’s ever claimed to have done so.

 

[romufc]

There's a reason for that though, and it's down to the coaching and culture ETH has instilled over the past 3 years despite an obscene amount of money spent. Just because this manager has us nowhere near the standards we should be in doesn't necessarily mean fans should change their outlook, and own standards based on how the club should be performing and operating as a club.

I would also like to inform you that we haven't come close to winning either the CL or PL since 2013, not 2021. ETH is not the only manager who has had money to spend.

You can have standards, but shouting we have standards wont automatically mean you will get the standards.

I know alot of fans love shouting standards but its not just the manager, you dont automatically compete for the PL or CL without the groundwork. We have the same training ground facilities as we did in 2010.

Whilst I get the manager needs to get sacked, appointing a new manager wont take us to win the PL straight away. So because we cant compete for PL / CL, you decide to cry over standards whilst discounting the FA cup and league cup as irrelevant trophies.

Having standards = We should be challenging for the PL /CL - agreed that is what a big club standard is.
However; saying oh we are big manutd and we used to call the league cup mickey mouse, and all cups should be called mickey mouse because we are Manutd, we have standards, is plain ignorance.

Football changes, cycles change, just because City were a relegation team 15 years ago, doesn't mean they still are, things change, if you dont understand that, then living in the past is fine.

 

[stefan92]

Claiming a trophy isn’t a trophy unless it’s one you regard the highest, is a bit bizarre. And smacks a little of using as a tool to disparage Bald.

There’s nothing factually incorrect in the statement re: winning most trophies (after *) in the last 2 years, unless you introduce your own variables.

The sentiment that some trophies are regarded higher than others, League and Champions League, isn’t a new concept though. It could, fairly, be pointed out that Bald has won none of these, but I don’t think her’s ever claimed to have done so.

True, there is no reason to discard what he has actually won. The trophies he won should at this point simply make the difference between "Thank you very much for winning us stuff Erik, but we don't believe the current development is good for the club in the long run" versus "Just f*** off Erik" when he finally gets sacked.

 

[VP89]

There's a reason for that though, and it's down to the coaching and culture ETH has instilled over the past 3 years despite an obscene amount of money spent. Just because this manager has us nowhere near the standards we should be in doesn't necessarily mean fans should change their outlook, and own standards based on how the club should be performing and operating as a club.

There's a massive flaw in assuming the culture is instilled solely by the manager. And ten hag has been here barely over 2 years, not 3. He actually developed a good boost to our mentality and culture for year 1.

 

[Cessna]

Claiming a trophy isn’t a trophy unless it’s one you regard the highest, is a bit bizarre. And smacks a little of using as a tool to disparage Bald.

You are right. As I said it is a personal opinion. Actually, it's more of a feeling than an opinion. I never thought about cups as trophies, and it is mostly because of living in the past.

But say EtH was to be sacked after this season (perhaps after another cup and 8th).
In 10 years if he is fortunate enough to have been the last successful trophy vinner for Manchester United, one would not think back on it as a success. Would we?

 

[Xaviboy]

If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?

 

[The Firestarter]

If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?

no

 

[romufc]

But say EtH was to be sacked after this season (perhaps after another cup and 8th).
In 10 years if he is fortunate enough to have been the last successful trophy vinner for Manchester United, one would not think back on it as a success. Would we?

No because standards and success is not the same.

Whenever someone mentions most successful football club in England, atm its Liverpool, would you take out the cup competitions and then judge it?

 

[Cessna]

If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?

Somehow, I hope not. I am not sure why. Depends on the manner of the defeat. But he did praise Mourinho (we are both winners) and rightly so. Perhaps he knows he will meet someone more than his match tactically.

 

[Cessna]

No because standards and success is not the same.

Whenever someone mentions most successful football club in England, atm its Liverpool, would you take out the cup competitions and then judge it?

Personally, I think the national cups are a waste, and PL teams should not have to play in them, or be enforced strict rules as to how many first teamers can play in them. Whine about too many games, well this is a good place to cut. The problem is that the players and managers (and maybe fans) want to win them, so they pick their best players after some rounds.

Then again, cups are good for the sport when David meets Goliath at Insert Random Field Moors Here and for the city/kids/families.

 

[Robbie Boy]

If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?

I kind of expect a defeat and no, he absolutely won't be sacked.

 

[fergiewherearethou]

If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?

only if we lose 10-0 and Mourinho emptied a tube of whipped cream on his head.

 

[Top_Bins]

I voted him out, but the talk of some here that the FA cup is not a noteworthy trophy are blinded by the hype of the CL. A competition that has regular entrees from uncompetitive leagues(PL included but for cheating) thus giving unfair advantage. Same goes for PL and Citeh, who have made the PL a mockery.

The FA cup still represents a way that all clubs in the country have a chance to beat all the others on merit.

 

[romufc]

Personally, I think the national cups are a waste, and PL teams should not have to play in them, or be enforced strict rules as to how many first teamers can play in them. Whine about too many games, well this is a good place to cut. The problem is that the players and managers (and maybe fans) want to win them, so they pick their best players after some rounds.

Then again, cups are good for the sport when David meets Goliath at Insert Random Field Moors Here and for the city/kids/families.

So you only want to leave the PL / CL, in that case why not remove every European competition except the CL as well then? That way can reduce the games even more?

 

[Cessna]

So you only want to leave the PL / CL, in that case why not remove every European competition except the CL as well then? That way can reduce the games even more?

That does not make much sense since you're only in one at a time.
That being said, the Fifa Club World Cup or w/e it's called now is even worse. Mostly because it's there only for the £££

 

[saivet]

I do understand the trophy angle but we've had 5 permanent managers since SAF retired. 3 of them have won a trophy and some might even try to argue that the Community Shield counts for Moyes.

ETH has spoken about how United haven't reached the standard before he was the manager but he's not really accomplished much more than LVG and I don't think he's matched Jose in terms of his achievements here. It is something he can rightfully talk about but his narrative about these two trophies is a bit tiresome. He hasn't done something no other manager has done, nor is he moving the needle that we should be so grateful for the FA Cup and League Cup wins.

 

[romufc]

I do understand the trophy angle but we've had 5 permanent managers since SAF retired. 3 of them have won a trophy and some might even try to argue that the Community Shield counts for Moyes.

ETH has spoken about how United haven't reached the standard before he was the manager but he's not really accomplished much more than LVG and I don't think he's matched Jose in terms of his achievements here. It is something he can rightfully talk about but his narrative about these two trophies is a bit tiresome. He hasn't done something no other manager has done, nor is he moving the needle that we should be so grateful for the FA Cup and League Cup wins.

I agree with this but what people need to understand is, any person / manager will do the same. I mean Ten Hag surely knows that the team is not achieved success and he cant be happy with the way the season has gone.

When your questioned about the same thing over and over again, its a go to.. yeah but I have won trophies. Its the same thing with us fans, when the rivals banter us and Arsenal talk about their season, what do we say... but what did you win? We won the FA cup.

We all know, the only manager we will call a success is if he wins us a PL /CL.

 

[Cloud7]

If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?

He's not being sacked, at the very least, during this calendar year. That's clear by now

 

[saivet]

I agree with this but what people need to understand is, any person / manager will do the same. I mean Ten Hag surely knows that the team is not achieved success and he cant be happy with the way the season has gone.

When your questioned about the same thing over and over again, its a go to.. yeah but I have won trophies. Its the same thing with us fans, when the rivals banter us and Arsenal talk about their season, what do we say... but what did you win? We won the FA cup.

We all know, the only manager we will call a success is if he wins us a PL /CL.

I don't even think they necessarily need to do that, but there needs to be consistency that we're close over a 2 year period. I look at what Arteta's done and if he leaves Arsenal at the end of this season but they finish a close 2nd to City or Liverpool and he makes the CL semi-finals, I think that would be considered a pretty unanimous success.

We've had a few two 2nd place and two 3rd place finishes since SAF where we've been mile off the top and we've only made the CL QFs twice (under Moyes and Ole). I think we're in a position, rightly or wrongly where if a manager gets us to becoming semi-serious PL or CL contenders (that never cross the line) that would be a success.

 

[romufc]

I don't even think they necessarily need to do that, but there needs to be consistency that we're close over a 2 year period. I look at what Arteta's done and if he leaves Arsenal at the end of this season but they finish a close 2nd to City or Liverpool and he makes the CL semi-finals, I think that would be considered a pretty unanimous success.

We've had a few two 2nd place and two 3rd place finishes since SAF where we've been mile off the top and we've only made the CL QFs twice (under Moyes and Ole). I think we're in a position, rightly or wrongly where if a manager gets us to becoming semi-serious PL or CL contenders (that never cross the line) that would be a success.

Personally, I wouldn't call Arteta a success if he leaves and Arsenal dont win a PL/CL. I would take a title, 5th, 8th in 3 years over coming 2nd in 3 years in a row.

 

[Zumbi]

People need to humble themselves. There is no point living in the past.. isnt this what we all bantered Liverpool fans for? Now 15 years later, you are the same.. living in the past.

Regardless of what you think about the manager, a trophy is still a trophy. Calling the FA cup a Mickey Mouse cup. I get it you would rather not win a trophy unless its the PL or CL.

We are not in a position to win the PL or CL, so what we should just give up on other cups because you are living in the past?

One of the main reasons we are not in a position to compete for the PL or CL is the fact that we have a manager who is underperforming massively despite being backed to the tune of £600+ million.

So in that context, using that same manager’s league cup or FA cup wins as a defence for his failings in more important competitions doesn’t make any sense. Other managers have turned lesser squads with less money into teams that are competing in those more prestigious competitions, and that is the standard we should be holding Ten Hag to.

There’s this bizarre method of defending Ten Hag which keeps popping up here, whereby his own failings are used as the benchmark by which to judge his other very minor successes, instead of using actual success as a benchmark. And this tactic reflects a worrying lowering of standards.

That’s how we end up with fans going on about how much our performances have improved this season, just because they’re slightly better than they were under him last season, ignoring the fact that it’s only in the context of them being historically bad under him last year that what we’re seeing now could possibly be spun as an “improvement”. Against any reasonable external or pre-Ten Hag benchmark, our performances this season are not an improvement on anything. They are still just not good enough.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?

He can lose in PL. We got no chance this season finish 4th/5th to qualify for CL. EL is out only hope to qualify next season CL. We need to win EL. Go all out in EL!

 

[romufc]

One of the main reasons we are not in a position to compete for the PL or CL is the fact that we have a manager who is underperforming massively despite being backed to the tune of £600+ million.

So in that context, using that same manager’s league cup or FA cup wins as a defence for his failings in more important competitions doesn’t make any sense. Other managers have turned lesser squads with less money into teams that are competing in those more prestigious competitions, and that is the standard we should be holding Ten Hag to.

There’s this bizarre method of defending Ten Hag which keeps popping up here, whereby his own failings are used as the benchmark by which to judge his other very minor successes, instead of using actual success as a benchmark. And this tactic reflects a worrying lowering of standards.

That’s how we end up with fans going on about how much our performances have improved this season, just because they’re slightly better than they were under him last season, ignoring the fact that it’s only in the context of them being historically bad under him last year that what we’re seeing now could possibly be spun as an “improvement”. Against any reasonable external or pre-Ten Hag benchmark, our performances this season are not an improvement on anything. They are still just not good enough.

I agree that Ten Hag isn’t good enough and the performances have not been good for a long time. We have not improved, I will not use last season as a metric to start judging our results on, because most people said those results / performances were due to mitigating circumstances. Which means, you do not account for those.

Instead, I will ignore last season as a one off and put my argument as following: 3rd season with a lot of money spent, I want to see control, possession control, out of possession control. I want to be able to go into games knowing the opponent is getting a max of 3 chances in most instances. This is not happening and we are conceding way too many chances.


Now, you have said one of the main reason is because of the manager, whilst I agree, your theory falls flat on its face because we have given every manager money and we are not in a position to compete for PL CL under any of them.


What managers have turned lesser squads into regularly competing for the PL and CL? I would like to know this as well. If you could give me a few examples?

 

[Shark]

If we get beaten tonight will he be sacked?

He should be, but going by INEOS track record so far it's unlikely and we'll just continue ploughing on as if nothing has happened, like an Ostrich burying it's head in the sand.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

One of the main reasons we are not in a position to compete for the PL or CL is the fact that we have a manager who is underperforming massively despite being backed to the tune of £600+ million.

So in that context, using that same manager’s league cup or FA cup wins as a defence for his failings in more important competitions doesn’t make any sense. Other managers have turned lesser squads with less money into teams that are competing in those more prestigious competitions, and that is the standard we should be holding Ten Hag to.

There’s this bizarre method of defending Ten Hag which keeps popping up here, whereby his own failings are used as the benchmark by which to judge his other very minor successes, instead of using actual success as a benchmark. And this tactic reflects a worrying lowering of standards.

That’s how we end up with fans going on about how much our performances have improved this season, just because they’re slightly better than they were under him last season, ignoring the fact that it’s only in the context of them being historically bad under him last year that what we’re seeing now could possibly be spun as an “improvement”. Against any reasonable external or pre-Ten Hag benchmark, our performances this season are not an improvement on anything. They are still just not good enough.

Yup, and a lot of posters warned before the start of the season that any improvement over last season would be hailed by a large portion of the fanbase as "success", because the benchmark now is 8th place and negative GD.

 

[MancunianAngels]

It is definitely and purely subjective, but I would never use the word "trophy" about a cup unless it's the CL or if the team wins the PL.
Especially not for United.

So if EtH for fame gets the label as "someone who guarantees trophies" then I'd never think about the cups that we used to call the "Mickey Mouse Cup".

Proper Manchester United fans would never call the FA Cup a Mickey Mouse Cup ffs

 

[romufc]

He should be, but going by INEOS track record so far it's unlikely and we'll just continue ploughing on as if nothing has happened, like an Ostrich burying it's head in the sand.

You mean INEOS track record over the last 8 months? Where they have not hired or sacked a manager? Interesting to see track records now are limited to 8 months..

If you talk about INEOS track record in general, go have a look at how many managers they have sacked at Nice.

 

[Sarni]

Both FA Cup and League Cup are nice to have trophies for big clubs - the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea won’t spend a huge amount of time thinking about them but they are not meaningless. League Cup is secondary here of course.

They are very good achievements for middle of the pack teams, even great in case of FA Cup. I am talking the likes of Villa, Spurs, West Ham here. All would be delighted to win them as they are unlikely to win the league or CL.

They are incredible achievements for clubs below that, both of them. Basically historical feats.

Where ten Hag wants to have our aspirations is probably middle of the pack, as it suits him perfectly and helps him build his image of serial winner punching above our weight. He probably does not aspire to win the league or CL anyway, they are well out of his reach.

 

[MancunianAngels]

Personally, I think the national cups are a waste, and PL teams should not have to play in them, or be enforced strict rules as to how many first teamers can play in them. Whine about too many games, well this is a good place to cut. The problem is that the players and managers (and maybe fans) want to win them, so they pick their best players after some rounds.

Then again, cups are good for the sport when David meets Goliath at Insert Random Field Moors Here and for the city/kids/families.

This is a load of nonsense.

The FA Cup is a fantastic tournament and beating the divs in May to win it was wonderful.

I also find it mad when people moan about other United fans celebrating and valuing domestic cup wins. Real Madrid had a full on trophy parade when they won the Copa Del Rey in 2014. Were they small time for doing that?

 

[romufc]

Proper Manchester United fans would never call the FA Cup a Mickey Mouse Cup ffs

Its a way to beat the manager.. For some fans they cannot differentiate, trophies and why the manager needs to be sacked.

We can congratulate him for winning us trophies but can still say he is not good enough as we want to see consistency in the league.

Dont forget how the caf reacted when Ole said trophies were for egos.. the same people now saying its not about trophies, its league position.

 

[Shark]

You mean INEOS track record over the last 8 months? Where they have not hired or sacked a manager? Interesting to see track records now are limited to 8 months..

If you talk about INEOS track record in general, go have a look at how many managers they have sacked at Nice.

At United so far. They've had more than one opportunity to pull the trigger, arguably three now.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

This is a load of nonsense.

The FA Cup is a fantastic tournament and beating the divs in May to win it was wonderful.

I also find it mad when people moan about other United fans celebrating and valuing domestic cup wins. Real Madrid had a full on trophy parade when they won the Copa Del Rey in 2014. Were they small time for doing that?

They won the CL that year too

 

[MancunianAngels]

Both FA Cup and League Cup are nice to have trophies for big clubs - the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea won’t spend a huge amount of time thinking about them but they are not meaningless.

They are very good achievements for middle of the pack teams, even great in case of FA Cup. I am talking the likes of Villa, Spurs, West Ham here. All would be delighted to win them as they are unlikely to win the league or CL.

They are incredible achievements for clubs below that, both of them. Basically historical feats.

Where ten Hag wants to have our aspirations is probably middle of the pack, as it suits him perfectly and helps him build his image of serial winner punching above our weight. He probably does not aspire to win the league or CL anyway.

city won the EFL Cup 4 years in a row once

Liverpool have won it twice out of the last three years and Klopp clearly enjoyed both.

Mourinho’s Chelsea routinely got to later stages of both cups. Often winning them.

Our rivals clearly enjoy winning these things which is why a "lesser club" hasn't had any domestic success since Leicester won the FA Cup in 2021.

I keep saying this but for all Arsenal's progress in recent seasons. They have nothing to show for it. Nobody will remember their 2nd place finishes in 10 years.

 

[MancunianAngels]

They won the CL that year too

The parade was in April before the season had finished. https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...l-madrid-celebrate-copa-del-rey-victory-video

 

[Big Ben Foster]

I keep saying this but for all Arsenal's progress in recent seasons. They have nothing to show for it. Nobody will remember their 2nd place finishes in 10 years.

I don't think that's true. Everyone remembers the classic title races of the 90s and 2000s, for example - even the teams that ultimately came up short.

 

[romufc]

Both FA Cup and League Cup are nice to have trophies for big clubs - the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea won’t spend a huge amount of time thinking about them but they are not meaningless. League Cup is secondary here of course.

They are very good achievements for middle of the pack teams, even great in case of FA Cup. I am talking the likes of Villa, Spurs, West Ham here. All would be delighted to win them as they are unlikely to win the league or CL.

They are incredible achievements for clubs below that, both of them. Basically historical feats.

Where ten Hag wants to have our aspirations is probably middle of the pack, as it suits him perfectly and helps him build his image of serial winner punching above our weight. He probably does not aspire to win the league or CL anyway, they are well out of his reach.

I disagree with this, it is more than a very good achievement for the middle pack teams. People say they are nice to have it or mickey mouse clearly doing a injustice to the FA cup. There is very good evidence behind this. Since 1992, apart from Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manutd and City, only 4 clubs have won the FA cup. In 32 years, the FA cup is won by the bigger team, which shows the importance given to it.

The League cup, since 2004, only 2 clubs have won it outside those teams, Swansea and Birmingham.

I don’t understand where you are getting the narrative that Ten Hag wants us to be a mid table team because numerous times after winning the cup, he has said it wasn’t good enough, he wants to be higher in the league.