The amount of hate Antony gets on here from his own fans is unjustified, Pogba was arguably a much worse signing as well.
Jesus Christ man
The amount of hate Antony gets on here from his own fans is unjustified, Pogba was arguably a much worse signing as well.
The amount of hate Antony gets on here from his own fans is unjustified, Pogba was arguably a much worse signing as well.
The high risk, fast transition style he wants to play is not suited to the PL where even the bottom teams have enough quality to take you apart if you give them enough chances.
I am done with blaming EtH. We now have a structure where the game model is to be developed by Dan Ashworth, Jason Wilcox and the rest. If we do not improve the style of play by the end of the season, then they are answerable. If EtH is not executing it well then they need to fire him. Ultimately, they are accountable for the on-field failures.
And we went for the cheapest option.
Wasn't there stories Tuchel wasn't happy with the budget he would be working with.
And that's the problem. Ten Hag isn't experiencing teething issues, he isn't still getting used to the league. This is simply his level.In just a couple of months Arne Slot has got Liverpool playing decent football with a recognisable style despite inherinting a poor squad and buying no one meanwhile after 2 years and 700m of new players Erik still hasnt implemented any kind of recognisable style and cant even get us to play good Football against Fulham and Brigthon.
After considering the cost.All I heard was that INEOS weren't sold on any of them. If they want to sack him, they clearly will despite what you believe.
Yeah I have no qualms accepting the offside, I just think it sucks as clearly just rank luck for Zirkzee.
How I’m seeing it is basically every game you have the performance (is is bad, acceptable or good) and the result (with the same 3 options) and I’d say we’ve seen:
Fulham. Good performance, good result.
Brighton. Acceptable performance, bad result.
What we need to know/find out is after, for example, 5 games are we still seeing acceptable/good performances because I don’t mind losing games like Brighton - unlucky to not go 2-1 up, created chances but bad defensive errors and away from home - if the general trend is consistent I.e. we are playing decently because that’s what matters over the course of a season.
After considering the cost.
It's "very early to conclude" whether or not ETH has tactically set up his team well by his third season in *checks notes* his third season???As I said, it's gameweek 2. Very early to conclude what has or hasn't been done by season 3. We made two silly mistakes but our defence isn't as bad as people are claiming. Arsenal themselves needed bailing out in both games by their own keeper.
Tend to agree with this. There's so much quality, even down at the bottom of the PL, that if you're not controlling games you WILL give up chances and you WILL be punished.The high risk, fast transition style he wants to play is not suited to the PL where even the bottom teams have enough quality to take you apart if you give them enough chances.
Lets look at what you said:It's "very early to conclude" whether or not ETH has tactically set up his team well by his third season in *checks notes* his third season???
How much time is needed before conclusions can be drawn? Or does the timer conveniently reset each season?
It's "very early to conclude" whether or not ETH has tactically set up his team well by his third season in *checks notes* his third season???
How much time is needed before conclusions can be drawn? Or does the timer conveniently reset each season?
This.Tend to agree with this. There's so much quality, even down at the bottom of the PL, that if you're not controlling games you WILL give up chances and you WILL be punished.
It's always the teams that are tough to break down and tough to control possession against that do well in league formats.
Less injuries is another byproduct of this style also. Takes less out the players and creates so much confidence which breeds enhanced performance levels.This.
Actually you can even simplify it further.
It's almost always the teams that average the most possession that ends up winning their respective leagues in every single country, period. Some exceptions to the rule, but that's the gist of it.
There are a million ways to explain why Pep's tactic are so effective. But you only need to focus on one thing to really understand why it's so effective: They hardly let their opposition have the ball. And the law of physics are pretty obvious: You can't score without the ball, and likewise, you can only score with the ball.
So in summary... More possession = More success. Unless your team is a statistical freak of nature.
1) That you think our problem vs Brighton was tacticalLets look at what you said:
"or in his third season at United hasn’t managed to tactically set up his team to a level that comfortably exceeds that of Brighton."
^ There are two problems with this statement. 1) That you think our problem vs Brighton was tactical, and 2) You'd take a 1 game sample size to conclude our readiness for season 3.
Both are equally poor takes.
Absolutely, you are spot on.Less injuries is another byproduct of this style also. Takes less out the players and creates so much confidence which breeds enhanced performance levels.
Yes, but he has not his best team available yet. Plus he needs more time, and more luck of course. Also, possession football is not in our DNA, and City are too good at it, we cant beat them there. I would trust in him and give him more funds.
Arteta also was rubbish in his first 3 years. Arsenal fans wanted him out, then he got lucky, and here we are.
And had 5 windows to implement nothingOne took over the greatest Liverpool team for 30 years, and the other took over from whatever was left after the Rangnick interim era and Glazer mismanagement
1) That you think our problem vs Brighton was tactical
Welbeck's goal came from an unopposed cross from the right half space. Your midfield offered zero resistance. Then Mitoma played a cutback from within your penaly area. I've seen United concede that goal countless times over the last two seasons. If something happens that often, you have a tactical issue.
A 38 year old James Milner was able to waltz into your box and beat your keeper with a shot that had to be saved off of the line. He didn't blow away your defenders with pace. He didn't dazzle them with skill. He didn't bully them with strength. He just identified the yawning gaps in your backline that are a result of a poor tactical set up.
Welbeck hit the bar with a free header of a free kick that you were poorly set up to deal with.
This mistake was repeated with Brighton's winner (except there were two unmarked Brighton players on hand who could have scored. Preparing for set pieces is critical part of the tactical planning. Arteta, like other Managers, hired a Coach to focus purely on it. United were poorly set up to deal with the threat Brighton posed.
2) You'd take a 1 game sample size to conclude our readiness for season 3.
I haven't mentioned United's readiness for season 3 - that's your own invention. I said that "in his third season at United hasn’t managed to tactically set up his team to a level that comfortably exceeds that of Brighton." But you knew that, seeing as you quoted it in an earlier reply.
ETH has managed 117 games for United. This weekend is game week 2. You keep mentioning the second of those facts, but I would have thought the first one is more relevant when assessing how well United are coached.
I think ETH style of play, could work but it needs world class finishers and players with amazing decision making, who would make right passes at the time of turnovers and are practically ruthless. De Bruyne, David Silva type midfielders and Rooney, RVP, Haaland type finishers.This.
Actually you can even simplify it further.
It's almost always the teams that average the most possession that ends up winning their respective leagues in every single country, period. Some exceptions to the rule, but that's the gist of it.
There are a million ways to explain why Pep's tactic are so effective. But you only need to focus on one thing to really understand why it's so effective: They hardly let their opposition have the ball. And the law of physics are pretty obvious: You can't score without the ball, and likewise, you can only score with the ball.
So in summary... More possession = More success. Unless your team is a statistical freak of nature, or Louis van Gaal is your manager.
Sidenote: This does not apply as strongly to cup competitions for obvious reasons. Cups are much more dependent on luck and tons of other random factors than a league season with 30+ games. It's much, much easier for a mediocre team to go far in a cup than to win the league.
Stop watching footballThe amount of hate Antony gets on here from his own fans is unjustified, Pogba was arguably a much worse signing as well.
An arsenal fan with much more insight theb deluded ETH fans!1) That you think our problem vs Brighton was tactical
Welbeck's goal came from an unopposed cross from the right half space. Your midfield offered zero resistance. Then Mitoma played a cutback from within your penaly area. I've seen United concede that goal countless times over the last two seasons. If something happens that often, you have a tactical issue.
A 38 year old James Milner was able to waltz into your box and beat your keeper with a shot that had to be saved off of the line. He didn't blow away your defenders with pace. He didn't dazzle them with skill. He didn't bully them with strength. He just identified the yawning gaps in your backline that are a result of a poor tactical set up.
Welbeck hit the bar with a free header of a free kick that you were poorly set up to deal with.
This mistake was repeated with Brighton's winner (except there were two unmarked Brighton players on hand who could have scored). Preparing for set pieces is critical part of the tactical planning. Arteta, like other Managers, hired a Coach to focus purely on it. United were poorly set up to deal with the threat Brighton posed.
2) You'd take a 1 game sample size to conclude our readiness for season 3.
I haven't mentioned United's readiness for season 3 - that's your own invention. I said that "in his third season at United hasn’t managed to tactically set up his team to a level that comfortably exceeds that of Brighton." But you knew that, seeing as you quoted it in an earlier reply.
ETH has managed 117 games for United. This weekend is game week 2. You keep mentioning the second of those facts, but I would have thought the first one is more relevant when assessing how well United are coached.
I get your point, I really do.I think ETH style of play, could work but it needs world class finishers and players with amazing decision making, who would make right passes at the time of turnovers and are practically ruthless. De Bruyne, David Silva type midfielders and Rooney, RVP, Haaland type finishers.
Whereas we have Rashford, Amad and Garnacho on the wings whose decision making is very patchy, our strikers or Ams (Bruno, Mount, Hojlund) are not sure shot finishers as well.
Thus we always let other teams stay in the game, and they always have belief that we will give them chances. Our life would be easier if our players were clinical in finishing and decision making and could put games to bed.
Have Arsenal been lucky these first two games? Yes. I'd say we've had tactical issues across the two games. However, we're generally well-drilled so our problems our likely to be ironed out soon.The first goal is a cut back that many oppositions try against various teams, easily enough cut out by a player with better agility than Maguire. Maguire was very poor in failing to cut that out - there was nothing structural or tactically wrong. A frankly bizzare take to blame tactics on a goal that had 5 players in the box needing to mark 3 Brighton attackers, one defender of whom was literally in front of the goal scorer in a good position to cut the ball out.
The Milner incident came from a 3 vs 3 incident, which again, happens in many games but for some reason is only a factor of controversy with Manchester United.
By the way - if I were to analyze Arsenal with the same level of criticism, it's easy to pull their pants down too - and they are still seen to have the best defence in the league (which I agree with). Wolves with a point blank header free on goal, Aston Villa with various ACTUAL gaping chances vs Arsenal in the first half, etc etc.
I don't think Arsenal had a tactical problem though, and I sure as hell don't think we had a tactical issue either.
As for point 2:
You just said a statement that's a poor take - suggesting we lost out to Brighton because of our tactics. For anyone that watched our game there were some issues but tactics certainly wasn't one. Amad missed a big chance himself, we were very unlucky with the disallowed goal, and our biggest 'problem' is the rawness of our attack which needs to find their conviction in the final third. We're among the highest in winning the ball in the final third and have good action areas in these positions, so to suggest we have some tactical problem is a bit bollocks.
I see some progress but not enough and at slow pace. I don't rate him as a top coach or manager.Have Arsenal been lucky these first two games? Yes. I'd say we've had tactical issues across the two games. However, we're generally well-drilled so our problems our likely to be ironed out soon.
United are not well-drilled. You're poorly coached and have been for some time. It's not "a frankly bizzare take to blame tactics on a goal that had 5 players in the box needing to mark 3 Brighton attackers", unless your idea of defensive tactics extends only as far as having a lot people at the back.
Reasonable people can disagree about whether ETH is doing a good job. After all, Jim Radcliffe is clearly a more intelligent person than I am with far more information with which to make a decision and he offered ETH a new contract. I just think it's so obviously disingenuous to keep talking about it being too early to assess whether ETH is coaching United well. I'll pose these questions again, but I'm not hopeful of getting an answer...
How much time is needed before conclusions can be drawn? Or does the timer conveniently reset each season?
The amount of hate Antony gets on here from his own fans is unjustified, Pogba was arguably a much worse signing as well.
I’m saying ‘good’ because in reality we dominated the ball, didn’t let them create much (xG of 0.4) and should have scored far more. That to me is a good performance. I would also call it a good performance if we won 4-0 or hadn’t scored and it was 0-0 because this is a thread about the coach (and I’m not blaming a coach if his team miss a hatful of basic chances i.e one on ones).Was the performance against Fulham at home really a good performance? We weren't as open as we were last season I suppose. It was okay, I thought Brighton was okay too.
With the money spent, the time commited and the carte blanche in the coaching set up with two managers now as assistants we really need to be setting ourselves as Man Utd apart from the Fulhams and the Brightons of this world.
The fact that close games with them both is seen as a positive after all of that is quite glaring for me.
You're obviously 100% correct. Even though you're an Arsenal fan, you clearly have a much better grasp of our own manager than many of our fans.Have Arsenal been lucky these first two games? Yes. I'd say we've had tactical issues across the two games. However, we're generally well-drilled so our problems our likely to be ironed out soon.
United are not well-drilled. You're poorly coached and have been for some time. It's not "a frankly bizzare take to blame tactics on a goal that had 5 players in the box needing to mark 3 Brighton attackers", unless your idea of defensive tactics extends only as far as having a lot people at the back.
Reasonable people can disagree about whether ETH is doing a good job. After all, Jim Radcliffe is clearly a more intelligent person than I am with far more information with which to make a decision and he offered ETH a new contract. I just think it's so obviously disingenuous to keep talking about it being too early to assess whether ETH is coaching United well. I'll pose these questions again, but I'm not hopeful of getting an answer...
How much time is needed before conclusions can be drawn? Or does the timer conveniently reset each season?
My perspective is this. His first season, Ten Hag overachieved. He got the very best out of everyone and tings, overall clicked very well. I know you can say, why couldn't they do it the second season? Mainly we had a lot of injuries and then the expectation was higher which added a lot more pressure because we overachieved the first season. In the second season, even with the injuries, we still underachieved. That was down to a lot of more average players not being able to play the way Ten Hag wanted. That brought us to Ten Hag's biggest mistake last year - he was stubborn and adamant on playing the style of play he wants. With that, our players simply weren't intelligent or up to scratch on that style. It took Arsenal two full seasons for Arteta to get the best for the way you are playing now and its worked.Have Arsenal been lucky these first two games? Yes. I'd say we've had tactical issues across the two games. However, we're generally well-drilled so our problems our likely to be ironed out soon.
United are not well-drilled. You're poorly coached and have been for some time. It's not "a frankly bizzare take to blame tactics on a goal that had 5 players in the box needing to mark 3 Brighton attackers", unless your idea of defensive tactics extends only as far as having a lot people at the back.
Reasonable people can disagree about whether ETH is doing a good job. After all, Jim Radcliffe is clearly a more intelligent person than I am with far more information with which to make a decision and he offered ETH a new contract. I just think it's so obviously disingenuous to keep talking about it being too early to assess whether ETH is coaching United well. I'll pose these questions again, but I'm not hopeful of getting an answer...
How much time is needed before conclusions can be drawn? Or does the timer conveniently reset each season?
I think this a bit of a rose tinted view, as has been said we were ripped open too often by Brighton, we beat Fulham by the skin of our teeth, it's last season all over again, anyone who can't see that needs to gie their head a wobble.My perspective is this. His first season, Ten Hag overachieved. He got the very best out of everyone and tings, overall clicked very well. I know you can say, why couldn't they do it the second season? Mainly we had a lot of injuries and then the expectation was higher which added a lot more pressure because we overachieved the first season. In the second season, even with the injuries, we still underachieved. That was down to a lot of more average players not being able to play the way Ten Hag wanted. That brought us to Ten Hag's biggest mistake last year - he was stubborn and adamant on playing the style of play he wants. With that, our players simply weren't intelligent or up to scratch on that style. It took Arsenal two full seasons for Arteta to get the best for the way you are playing now and its worked.
In the middle of all this, our club was a crisis behind the scenes. That's due to the club being up for sale. We also had Ronaldo undermining him. We had Sancho undermining him. Whatever about Ronaldo, he is a special player who has lee-way because, well, he's Ronaldo. The only other player in the world who can do such a thing is Messi. They are greatness. The gall of Sancho to think he could think he's more powerful than the manager. Ronaldo gave us special memories, he got to our hearts. Sancho nowhere near it. It's like Henry compared to Bentley.
The last three 4 games (City twice, Fulham and Brighton), United have been solid. They are pressing much better and smarter and they had Brighton under pressure. I don't think there was 4 games in a row last season where you could say United actually played well. Now, Ten Hag did make mistakes with his subs against Brighton. He needs to learn from that. Also, it's match week two, there is no need to panic at all.
The club has back Ten Hag with signings, backroom staff and an extra deal on his contract. He needs at least the full season. If he takes a step backwards, then maybe it's not meant to be. I think it is meant to be, and for him to have big success at United, it is going to be a bittersweet moment.
I didn’t see the game but I’m confused: a few posts above yours, someone is criticizing his unwillingness to play for a draw, yet you’re claiming the opposite. Which is it?Stuff like this is pointless
Jugen Klopps Liverpool had a winning mentality
In extra time, Brighton played for a win and United played for a draw - inevitably we lost
Play however you like. We aren’t winning with that mentality
It's interesting cos I actually watched an Ajax home match while he was Manager in 2019. They absolutely dominated the ball... but Ajax are the big fish in a small pond (or at least they were at the time). Beyond the level of opposition, the technical level was very high. de Ligt and Blind were playing CB and literally every member of the team were comfortable on the ball. It seems he quickly figured out that he wouldn’t be able to recreate that at United, so now is implementing tactics he doesn't really believe in and can't thus cant communicate to his players well.You're obviously 100% correct. Even though you're an Arsenal fan, you clearly have a much better grasp of our own manager than many of our fans.
United fans have this tendency to get behind a manager or player and put them on a pedestal above the actual club. In some cases it works out great and is part of our rich history of legends like Charlton, Best, Cantona and such. But the other side of the coin is that a lot of players who don't at all deserve it also get the same special treatment, and will be viewed by many as more important than the club itself. It's a beautiful thing in many ways, but it's also our curse. And in these underperforming years since Sir Alex left, it's mostly been a bloody curse.
So even when it's painfully obvious that a player or manager is detrimental to our success, a lot of our fans will still back them out of some display of misplaced loyalty, even if it means that the club suffers from it. Rashford is the most obvious example right now, but there are countless others to pick from in the last 10 years.
We still have fans who think Ole was a fantastic manager, that Pogba was a superb signing, that De Gea deserved to be the highest paid goalkeeper of footballing history, and that Rashford is a world class winger who is worth 150 million pounds. That says it all. The delusion is miles off the charts.
Luckily a lot of us are also seeing what's plain and obvious. Erik ten Hag is not a bad manager. He has a basic grasp of football that is good. But unlike for example Arteta, Pep, Klopp etc., he massively undervalues the importance of control and possession. And he massively overrates and places blind faith in certain players that would never even start for teams like City, Arsenal or Liverpool. He seems to think that we can press, transition and brute force our way to the top through the likes of Bruno and Rashford, as long as we give it 5-6 years to finally work. Even though Ten Hag surely knows a lot more about football than all of us, he is just flat out wrong about this. And that will probably be his downfall.
United have been more solid. The FA Cup win was seriously confusing for me. I watched United play without a functioning midfield for pretty much an entire season. The Final made me think, "wait - was it a tactical choice to very often completely vacate the middle of the pitch during games?!?" I'm still not sure.My perspective is this. His first season, Ten Hag overachieved. He got the very best out of everyone and tings, overall clicked very well. I know you can say, why couldn't they do it the second season? Mainly we had a lot of injuries and then the expectation was higher which added a lot more pressure because we overachieved the first season. In the second season, even with the injuries, we still underachieved. That was down to a lot of more average players not being able to play the way Ten Hag wanted. That brought us to Ten Hag's biggest mistake last year - he was stubborn and adamant on playing the style of play he wants. With that, our players simply weren't intelligent or up to scratch on that style. It took Arsenal two full seasons for Arteta to get the best for the way you are playing now and its worked.
In the middle of all this, our club was a crisis behind the scenes. That's due to the club being up for sale. We also had Ronaldo undermining him. We had Sancho undermining him. Whatever about Ronaldo, he is a special player who has lee-way because, well, he's Ronaldo. The only other player in the world who can do such a thing is Messi. They are greatness. The gall of Sancho to think he could think he's more powerful than the manager. Ronaldo gave us special memories, he got to our hearts. Sancho nowhere near it. It's like Henry compared to Bentley.
The last three 4 games (City twice, Fulham and Brighton), United have been solid. They are pressing much better and smarter and they had Brighton under pressure. I don't think there was 4 games in a row last season where you could say United actually played well. Now, Ten Hag did make mistakes with his subs against Brighton. He needs to learn from that. Also, it's match week two, there is no need to panic at all.
The club has back Ten Hag with signings, backroom staff and an extra deal on his contract. He needs at least the full season. If he takes a step backwards, then maybe it's not meant to be. I think it is meant to be, and for him to have big success at United, it is going to be a bittersweet moment.