mu4c_20le
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- Jul 7, 2013
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With fans like Goldbridge, who needs enemies anyway
Progress isn't measured by how many points you got in 5 games. You are also being controversial if you say that stats and performances have been poor recently. It really wasn't a poor performance against Palace, we were a bit unlucky with converting chances into goals but it was one of the best away performances in months and (until last 30mins) we played completely different style to last season.The biggest problem is, I see fans here behaving exactly like ten Hag. After every poor performance (we had already quite a few this year already) they keep repeating the alleged positives like "wooow, our first half was real good, we didn't score but still..." and "i see the progress compared to last year" and so on. Maybe they should look at the table, the poor stats, the poor results, poor performances and admit that in the end what matters is how many points we get. And to be fair, we're trailing by 6 points after just 5 rounds, we don't score goals, we're 11th which is totally embarrassing and there's no progress at all.
I’m not entrenched whatsoever. I’m happy to be objective about what I see. I’m not convinced EtH is going to be ‘the one’ but I’m also able to see the positives too. My biggest issue is in game management along with the seemingly lack of ability to achieve consistency.That's your view from someone who is also entrenched in their opinion. The reality is both sides talk an utter load of bollocks.
Feels like 30-40% of people don't see that this so called "rebuild" goes totally the wrong way. With ten Hag we lost already 2 years and counting, thanks to his crap signings, useless, mediocre players "because they are dutch, or played in Ajax, or in Holland" so our dutch genius knew them well. A bunch of useless, mediocre (or even worse) peg legs arrived with the recommendation of ten Hag. Just a few. Antony, probably the biggest flop of the history of PL. Malacia. Anybody saw him at all? While he was healthy he was still bad. Weghorst, the guy who was probably the worst attacker ever wore a United shirt, luckily he was on loan. Zirkzee. He simply isn't prolific enough, definitely not what we needed. Amrabat. Simply mediocre, at least he was also on loan. And so on. Maybe Martinez was the only one who turned out to be good but he's really injury prone unfortunately. And Onana, but that's debatable as he's making ridicilous mistakes sometimes. So, his bad signings and clueless tactics (resulted in poor results) can be called anything but rebuild, sorry. We have to get rid of him ASAP.feels like 60-70% of people here have trouble grasping the concept of a rebuild. Wouldn't we all want to be instantly perfect..
At least I have about 60 PL games of results as proof that we're utter crap in the league. I'm sick of being frustrated by United it's been like this February 2023. I admire people with more patience than me, simply can't do another shite season.
Seems like some people are not understanding what that poster is trying to say. If we keeping performing like that, 9 time out of 10 we win that game. It's encouraging to have that performance(disappointing result still mind you, I don't think anyone was debating that) rather than have a plucky 1-0 win like we had in our opening game against Wolves last season where we were absolutely shit and we all know we wouldn't win again playing that way and that it was unsustainable.
So you'd rather have a player that makes us more fluid than a player who creates assists, and did you not also take in to account the other other changes that may have contributed bto that loss of fluidity?
How about a hair transplant and Turkey teeth?There's only so much makeup you can put on a pig before it starts looking silly.
Just to be clear, overall, our results have not improved so far this season. We’re currently on a lower average points per game ratio than last season, despite having a fairly generous start to the season.
Yes, our performances and play have improved in some aspects. I am incredibly sceptical the improvements will result in the dramatically improved results we need for Ten Hag to stay in position. I think he has too many flaws and we’ll still end up too far off the pace under him.
Take the Palace game. It was one of the best first half performances we’ve seen in ages and we created loads of chances, but do you really think we win that game 9/10 times? I don’t.
Despite the dominant first half we still let Palace back in to the match in the second half and still gave them some big chances to snatch a win. I still had that all too common feeling of dread that they were more likely to snatch it than we were. Despite our improvement, it still only ended up 6-4 shots on target in our favour. And this is a Palace side that have not had a great start to the season.
An inability to score enough goals, a susceptibility to letting games get away from us and conceding soft chances/goals, and in game changes that make us worse, not better, are all recurring themes across last season and the games so far this season. So forgive us for wanting to see improvements in those areas too before we’re fully convinced the requisite improvement in results will definitely come.
On the flip side, if they were 100% convinced he wasn't up to the task, he wouldn't still be here. While they did explore the possibility of replacing him, other factors likely came into play, and they saw enough merit in keeping him while backing him. That's how I view the situation.
I agree this is his final chance, and there's no question that results need to improve—I'm not disputing that. It's just my personal feeling that the results will come soon.
However. That is the first time in almost two years I’ve seen him set us up in a way to control games. So I consider that as the outlier not the rule of thumb.
That's true, results aren't great, and they do matter, but performances have definitely improved. Last season one of the biggest complaints was that we looked worse than our results suggested, which was something you personally raised in last season's thread on the manager.
I actually think your final paragraph after the first sentence is perfectly reasonable, and I'm not even sure if I disagree with you about whether Ten Hag is the man to take us forward, you seem to be going to great lengths not to acknowledge the obvious improvement in our play - we clearly look more cohesive this season than last, are creating more chances more reliably, are retaining the ball better, and are conceding fewer and lower quality chances.
This thread was missing the good old ‘you need years before you can judge him’ and ‘any manager will be amazing if they are given lots of time’ reiterated in some capacity. Thank you.feels like 60-70% of people here have trouble grasping the concept of a rebuild. Wouldn't we all want to be instantly perfect..
The issue I have with this, is if this is ETH's vision, why is it so different from the way we were playing last year, i.e. playing with one deep isolated midfielder, and a huge gap between lines, pressing high and defending deep? this season we now have defenders available who are able to push up and play a high line defence, make line breaking passes and allow the team to execute a high press.... and instead we are finally playing with 2 deeper mids, retaining possession and covering the defence, I mean thank god that penny has finally dropped, but why did it take an entire season for ETH to rectify this basic error.We actually saw ten Hag's vision in action for the majority of the first half in action yesterday, and I was impressed. I don't care too much about the fact that we couldn't convert our chances as we will ultimately start to score goals as long as we keep on creating chances.
However, my concern is ten Hag's in game management as his substitutions made us progressively worse. There was no need to take off Zirkzee to play Rashford/Hojlund through the middle as either of them can't take care of the ball to save their lives. He followed this up with replacing Amad, instead of a visibly tiring Garnacho, and we then had a front three which kept giving the ball away and we reverted to last year's team. Didn't help that he kept Bruno who kept on turning over possession as well.
The problem with this scenario is that if we even continue to grow as a team and become capable to title challenges and deep European runs, this type of in game management is going to cost us in the crucial games that decide these trophies.
feels like 60-70% of people here have trouble grasping the concept of a rebuild. Wouldn't we all want to be instantly perfect..
feels like 60-70% of people here have trouble grasping the concept of a rebuild. Wouldn't we all want to be instantly perfect..
If Onana hadn’t made that double save it or if Eze had buried that easy chance, we’d have suffered another bad loss. Fine margins indeed.
If Eze had finished a pretty easy chance, if Onana hadn't saved a penalty when we were being outplayed by one of the worst teams in the league, if Onana hadn't made one of the best double saves of the season. If Coventry hadn't of been a millimetre offside, if Ortega hadn't had decided to throw a goal in. If we hadn't fluked a last minute breakaway goal against Liverpool in the last minute of extra time. If we hadn't beat Brighton on penalties, if Rashford didn't deflect a shot against Newcastle's 3rd choice keeper.
The "ifs" go in Ten Hag's favour far more often than not. Top managers make those irrelevant for the most part.
I feel this is an interesting talking point among fans and probably should be brought up more- the split between having a squad that is very suited to quick transitions (Bruno, Rashford, Hojlund, even Casemiro with the way he's instructed to play) and more technical players that can keep the ball well, move it quickly, good first touch, awareness etc (almost the entire defence, Shaw, Mainoo, Eriksen, Zirkzee, Amad). There were rumors that EtH didn't want the Ugarte signing and wanted a creative midfielder and if it's true then this might highlight the issue.The issue I have with this, is if this is ETH's vision, why is it so different from the way we were playing last year, i.e. playing with one deep isolated midfielder, and a huge gap between lines, pressing high and defending deep? this season we now have defenders available who are able to push up and play a high line defence, make line breaking passes and allow the team to execute a high press.... and instead we are finally playing with 2 deeper mids, retaining possession and covering the defence, I mean thank god that penny has finally dropped, but why did it take an entire season for ETH to rectify this basic error.
The other issue I have is that Zirkzee has effectively replaced Weghorst, (ok he is a massive upgrade), but he is playing deep as a 10 at best and dropping deeper, seems to me that for an ETH version of our team to function we have to play effectively with an extra midfielder and no striker, i.e. a 4-2-4, as soon as we switch to playing an actual striker then the system fails, our midfield is over run and we struggle to retain possession beyond the half way line, maybe that is a personnel problem? maybe Bruno is too wasteful with the ball, but cannot be dropped (I dunno, I like Bruno so not advocating this really), I think Hoijlund will continue to struggle with ETH as a manager, he does not seem to have a system which supports a proper number 9.
I love playing on the break, I love Ole-Ball, I mean this was the football I grew up on, Giggs, Sharpe, Kanchelskis, Cole etc... and I absolutely despise ticci-tacca yeah it is effective but so dull what is the actual point! but I watch an ETH side and it looks like slowed down ticca-tacca which resorts to long ball because the midfield is unable to retain possession beyond the half way line, irrespective of coaching and philosophies football is always going to come down to moments of individual brilliance, seems to me that we are trying to control matches by limiting individuality, something that players like Rashford, Bruno and Hoijlund thrive on.
It was an encouraging game on the whole, but one problem I've always had with him is how he is apparently incapable of adapting in-game.
Plan A worked great, but Palace changed things at half time and we barely created another chance in the entire second half. I can't even remember the last time Ten Hag changed our personnel or tactics for the better during a game, unless it was "chuck McT on and hope he can nick a goal".
The assumption is that we won't continue under performing what our underlying metrics suggest as they tend to balance out eventually. I've already acknowledged that we need to show this more consistently and soon for this to be any sort of meaningful progress.I understand what he’s saying. I just don’t think it’s necessarily true, at least to a degree that will prove good enough.
Yes, improvements in performance are very welcome. We all hope they bring a huge improvement in results.
But this assumption that our current improvement in performances will automatically bring better results just because we’re playing better football and creating more chances won’t necessarily hold true over the long term when some of our most glaring issues remain. It’s a step in the right direction, but there’s still a lot of improvement that’s needed elsewhere to ensure we get results consistently enough for meaningful progress in the league.
Take the Palace game. It was one of the best first half performances we’ve seen in ages and we created loads of chances, but do you really think we win that game 9/10 times? I don’t.
Despite the dominant first half we still let Palace back in to the match in the second half and still gave them some big chances to snatch a win. I still had that all too common feeling of dread that they were more likely to snatch it than we were. Despite our improvement, it still only ended up 6-4 shots on target in our favour. And this is a Palace side that have not had a great start to the season.
An inability to score enough goals, a susceptibility to letting games get away from us and conceding soft chances/goals, and in game changes that make us worse, not better, are all recurring themes across last season and the games so far this season. So forgive us for wanting to see improvements in those areas too before we’re fully convinced the requisite improvement in results will definitely come.
I agree, it isn’t. But, they also felt he deserved another chance in a better environment, which is why he’s still here. If improving the team were as simple as replacing ETH, they could have easily found someone other than Tuchel, given their best-in-class reputation. It’s not a matter of Tuchel or bust as that would be a bad way of running things.Being short of being 100% convinced he’s not up to the job is hardly a ringing endorsement. Plus they may have just not been able to come to an agreement with the potential replacements they wanted (for example, it’s been reported Tuchel rejected them).
I hope the results come soon. But they need to come in enough volume for there to be meaningful progress in the league.
Have a consistent first XI helped somewhat with this in the first season. Especially defensively. Also having Rashford (or a forward) hitting what is expected.You can still remain relatively consistent while rebuilding, and win games against the odds. He showed some of that in his first season here, in fairness. Well up to March 2023 anyway, then everything went downhill.
I agree, it isn’t. But, they also felt he deserved another chance in a better environment, which is why he’s still here. If improving the team were as simple as replacing ETH, they could have easily found someone other than Tuchel, given their best-in-class reputation. It’s not a matter of Tuchel or bust as that would be a bad way of running things.
I also agree with the second part of your post; I've expressed the same sentiment. The only thing we disagree on is that you don't believe it'll happen and I believe it will.
It wasn’t though, it was a brilliant performance. Probably the most we have looked like a top team in years. We completely controlled the game in a way we have never really managed. That’s the kind of control I’ve been looking for us to have for soo many years. It’s clear from performances this season we have been improving game on game. The issue is our attack is still someway off the top sides so even playing well we will be inconsistent at taking chances. What I don’t get is downplaying the performance though, not many will play better than that.Strong performance is probably taking it to far, it was an OK performance nothing more nothing less. It was an OK performance with a disappointing result and amongst an iffy start to the season on the back of last seasons horrors it's not good enough.
I have no problem saying we have shown improvement from last season it's would be difficult not to in all honesty but we are not anywhere near where we should be.
The assumption is that we won't continue under performing what our underlying metrics suggest as they tend to balance out eventually. I've already acknowledged that we need to show this more consistently and soon for this to be any sort of meaningful progress.
And yes, I genuinely believe we would win that Palace game 9 times out of 10 if we performed at that level. In the first half, our play deserved a score of 2-0, if not 3-0. Had we taken that lead, given our control of possession, Palace would likely have had no incentive to attack in the second half, and we wouldn’t have felt the need to keep pressing for a goal allowing Palace to have the chances they had. It would have died down, much like the Southampton game did.
Have a consistent first XI helped somewhat with this in the first season. Especially defensively. Also having Rashford (or a forward) hitting what is expected.
This thread was missing the good old ‘you need years before you can judge him’ and ‘any manager will be amazing if they are given lots of time’ reiterated in some capacity. Thank you.
He is not getting inside the players heads like Guardiola does for city.
That final twenty minutes under ferguson, we would have been pressing for a goal. Instead it looked like we settled for a point. Players had basically given up.
The man just can't get a break, win draw lose he's constantly under review.
It's a tough job to be a united manager if Jose with 2 trophies and a 2nd place finish got sacked, he's got no chance here.