Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

[doubleohseven]

What's the context around being absolutely clueless in your third season in charge? Showed up by two managers who've barely even set foot in the league. Brightons Fabian Hurzeler is actually the youngest ever full time boss in the league. Explain the context here, and what makes fans who've had enough, hyperbolic and entitled.

The season is, of course, three games old.

BHA's new groove was Zirkzee's knee away from falling behind to United.

I agree about the Liverpool debacle. But is it fair to suggest EtH wins because of 'individual brilliance' and deny the reverse (loses because of individual errors)?

As I said, they'd ignore hyperbole like 'shown up' and focus on the wider context. But, also, this is hypothetical and based on variables (other
managers, wages, do they want to move, etcetera).

Just don't think clubs hiring managers see it the same way as us fair albeit frustrated folk on Red Cafe.

 

[Red Star One]

Disagree.

Taking over a team of proven Champions, already in the CL with a better negotiating position for new acquisitions rather than the tail-end of Ole/Rangnick and a decade into Woodward/Arnold's 'leadership'?

Well I strongly disagree here. Team of proven champions, sure, but that squad was falling apart and aging. Moyes was never backed as much as ETH (not even a fraction, imagine if we allowed Moyes to sign 5-6 duds he has worked before) and the expectations/pressure were much bigger than currently under ETH. Let me remind you that ten Hag crashed out from a super easy CL group and landed on the 4th place there as well as finished 8th in the league last year, and yet he still survived only thanks to the FA cup. Completely unthinkable for Moyes to survive such dross.

They'd assess his first season as progressive. The second season ended with honours despite being ravaged with injury. Not bad for 'outschooled by the majority of other managers'.

Palace, for example, would assess it so, considering Glasner's primary honour is a Europa League won on penalties versus Rangers. He did indeed beat EtH last season, fair play, but we had Casemiro in central defence that night.

In short, other clubs would assess context rather than hyperbolic over-reactions from entitled supporters of other clubs.

As they've done for some time.

I don't think there's too much time and tolerance for constant excuses in the mid-table and low-table clubs. No-one at a relegation fodder would be talking "oh but his tactics might result in injuries, so when we have some players injured don't expect any results", no-one there would forget wasting tens of millions on former players that don't improve the team. There would be a much bigger pressure than here on winning points - and he's not very good at it. I really doubt anyone would care about his constant excuses.

 

[justsomebloke]

But many here seem to think that its only silverware that counts and not statistics, performances, or league positions. That's why, despite the damning stats last season -- the number of (negative) records that ETH broke last season was staggering -- they defended him.

I know. To those people I say: The alternative isn't stats or performances really - what counts to me is being a team that challenges for the only silverware that really matters, which is the PL title. That's the basic measure of a season, first and foremost because it's what shows how good a team you are. Finishing second may not be much of a triumph in itself, but it puts you in a place where you may be poised to challenge for the title.

Which matters a lot more than winning a domestic cup, which are just nice icing on the cake, consolation prizes, and winning them doesn't really say a lot about what sort of team you are. Not very good but lucky teams sometimes win them. Not very good but lucky teams don't finish in the top two in the PL.

A European title is something more than that, but it still doesn't outweigh league performance to my mind.

 

[Gehrman]

Can't believe all the people who backed after our worst ever pl and cl run because we won a FA cup. We used to make fun of Wenger for consistently getting top 4 + Fa cups while spending a pittance. Ten Haag has an spent tons and he should have bern out last season.

 

[Red Star One]

I agree about the Liverpool debacle. But is it fair to suggest EtH wins because of 'individual brilliance' and deny the reverse (loses because of individual errors)?

It is fair, because it's down to the tactics. Every team will have individual errors every single game. If your tactics is such as ours, where every individual error can result in structure completely broken and oftentimes a big chance for the opponent, it's managers responsibility, as he decided about such risky tactics.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Can't believe all the people who backed after our worst ever pl and cl run because we won a FA cup. We used to make fun of Wenger for consistently getting top 4 + Fa cups while spending a pittance. Ten Haag has an spent tons and he should have bern out last season.

It was honestly maddening reading some of the posts defending last season's performances.

It beggars belief how standards have slipped for so many posters here.

It took a 3-0 defeat to Liverpool after so many prior humiliations(including a worse 1 to the same team) to finally realize ETH is not up to par.

Our results/performances after the 7-0 drubbing have been shambolic and he genuinely should have been sacked then. He didn't have any goodwill to survive that kind of result.

 

[Revan]

Bit of an unfair assesment. He did brilliant in his first season taking Middlesbrough all the way to the playoffs after taking over when they were near relegation. Last season was hard for him because the board decided to sell his best player and didn't really back him in the transfer window. He still managed a respectable 8th place and challenged for a playoff spot towards the end of the season.

I don't see why you think McKenna will be damaged goods. I've watched all three of Ipswich's games and they had the toughest start possible against Liverpool and City. Thought they held their own for a large part of the Liverpool game. Had some decent chances. Unlucky against Fulham on Saturday, played some nice football and their press looked as effective as it did in the Championship which is a good sign. A lot of positives to take and if I was a Ipswich fan I would be feeling a little more optimistic about staying up. Long way to go though of course. He has a lot of new players so patience is needed for McKenna to bed them in.

I think you need to be exceptional in Championship, to have a chance of being successful in a top EPL team. Carrick has been ok there but not exceptional.

At the contrary, McKenna has been exceptional. He basically promoted a third division team to EPL in the space of two years. But I think his team is not of EPL standards thus I fully expect them to get relegated. And then, it would take a very brave top EPL club to give him a chance, despite that I think he is potentially one of the most talented managers in the league.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I see fans have gone soft again. He's so clearly a disaster.

 

[doubleohseven]

Our results/performances after the 7-0 drubbing have been shambolic and he genuinely should have been sacked then. He didn't have any goodwill to survive that kind of result.

He won the club's first trophy only the week before and finished above Liverpool, qualified for another final (which he won since beating Pool en route) and got top four.

In his first season. After the twin Ole/Rangnick horror.

The whole blasphemy angle about the 7 0 game is excruciating at times. Yes, it was awful and it should never happen against any opposition, but it ultimately meant feck all.

Sacking a coach, given the aforementioned context, over one result is just plain stupid and would set the most dangerous of unnecessary precedents.

 

[Zumbi]

Disagree.

Taking over a team of proven Champions, already in the CL with a better negotiating position for new acquisitions rather than the tail-end of Ole/Rangnick and a decade into Woodward/Arnold's 'leadership'?

EtH is essentially taking over from Ferguson, also, that's where he is ultimately expected to travel.



They'd assess his first season as progressive. The second season ended with honours despite being ravaged with injury. Not bad for 'outschooled by the majority of other managers'.

Palace, for example, would assess it so, considering Glasner's primary honour is a Europa League won on penalties versus Rangers. He did indeed beat EtH last season, fair play, but we had Casemiro in central defence that night.

In short, other clubs would assess context rather than hyperbolic over-reactions from entitled supporters of other clubs.

As they've done for some time.

Exactly. And then they’d choose a manager that isn't Ten Hag.

 

[FrankDrebin]

The 7-0 drubbing wasn't the only walloping we took that season and there continues to be more.

But, yeah, we should stick with him.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

He won the club's first trophy only the week before and finished above Liverpool, qualified for another final (which he won since beating Pool en route) and got top four.

In his first season. After the twin Ole/Rangnick horror.

The whole blasphemy angle about the 7 0 game is excruciating at times. Yes, it was awful and it should never happen against any opposition, but it ultimately meant feck all.

That game didn't mean feck all. There's a clear nose-dive in results/performances since that game.

A 7-0 loss to your rivals doesn't mean feck all especially with zero goodwill beforehand.

Carabao Cup is a minor trophy. It's the least important trophy on store. I'd rather win 1 league title in 5 years than 5 carabao cups in a row. Citing that as some form of goodwill is laughable.

Other clubs would have booted him out if he got that result at those clubs. Deservingly so.

 

[Offside]

The 7-0 drubbing wasn't the only walloping we took that season and there continues to be more.

But, yeah, we should stick with him.

City away that season 6-3. The Sevilla away game we were outplayed to an extent I've barely seen.

 

[Lentwood]

It's not true that every successful team at the professional level is defensive and sits back and hits people on the counter.

ETH doesn't want his team taking unnecessary risks of the ball when playing out of the back precisely because of the risk of counter attack.

You draw the opposition on to you to create an artificial transition and work it around them or play it back if the pass isn't on. Liverpool did that well on Sunday, we didn't because they were more physical and we made bad decisions with the ball

Who said "every successful team at the professional level is defensive?".

I don't think that was implied by my post, I actually said you COULDNT ultimately be successful in league formats playing that way.

The best teams, the teams who win titles, are attacking, but they attack by controlling games and starving the opposition of the ball and counter attacking opportunities.

They don't play this wild, basketball-style football that leads to crazy variance and huge spaces all over the field.

 

[FrankDrebin]

City away that season 6-3. The Sevilla away game we were outplayed to an extent I've barely seen.

And the many midtable sides that have continuously played us off the park. Just fortunate those teams are erratic with their finishing.

 

[VP89]

Stop falling for the endless propaganda.

If this is the manager-independent 'game model' we might as well sack off all the new appointees because it's exactly the same shit we were doing last season. The only difference is we've had two number 10s/false 9s leading the press rather than 1 striker. And that was only because 1 striker is injured and the other is a new signing/very unfit. We aren't even playing with a higher line, against Brighton and Liverpool it was right back to standard with the cataclysmic gap between the defence and the front five. And ETH still has both full backs pressing up rather than pushing one into midfield to help Casemiro.

'Game model' might mean something in terms of the profile of players we sign. Like Yoro and Ugarte. It is meaningless hokum when it comes to how ETH has us playing.

No one is falling for propaganda. If you think this is the same structure as last season then there's a wider problem with how you've viewed the games.

It still has flaws, we do get into compromising positions but we aren't remotely as open as we were (barring the Liverpool fixture).

 

[Blood Mage]

The back vote trending upwards. Never change Redcafe

 

[Shark]

The season is, of course, three games old.

BHA's new groove was Zirkzee's knee away from falling behind to United.

I agree about the Liverpool debacle. But is it fair to suggest EtH wins because of 'individual brilliance' and deny the reverse (loses because of individual errors)?

As I said, they'd ignore hyperbole like 'shown up' and focus on the wider context. But, also, this is hypothetical and based on variables (other
managers, wages, do they want to move, etcetera).

Just don't think clubs hiring managers see it the same way as us fair albeit frustrated folk on Red Cafe.

Falling behind, and likely would have ended 2-2 because ETH simply cannot hold onto a lead, this has been evident for over a year now. Also, do you not put individual errors down to tactics that force those errors? If multiple players in a team are making individual errors in both attack and defense, something is seriously wrong with the system surely. Even if you discount the individual errors, he's built a side that's allergic to scoring goals. In fact his judgement regarding attacking signings has been as diabolical as his football on the pitch. If ETH hasn't been shown up in England, literally nobody has.

 

[FrankDrebin]

The back vote trending upwards. Never change Redcafe

Got up the Fa Cup final highlights on youtube again.

 

[Lentwood]

Ole bewteen January 2020 to when he was sacked had the better squad. Defense was worse but he had better midfield and more importantly forwards who can actually score. Ten Hag is the one most to blame for the state of the squad currently because of his signings.

I don't buy it. I think our squad now is borderline very good, but the manager is an abject failure.

You only need to go back to OGS squad and see where they are now to know it was a very average squad.

Jose's "where they play...IF they play" comments spring to mind.

Remember, the likes of Rashford (still here and derided as terrible), Pereira (Fulham), Dan James (Leeds), AWB (West Ham) Martial (free agent), Pogba (banned), De Gea (Fiorentina), Lindelof (5th choice), Bailly (Villarreal), Maguire (4th choice), Telles (Saudi Arabia), DvdB (Girona), Fred (Fenerbache) etc...all played pretty regularly under OGS, if not every week!

 

[laughtersassassin]

It really is comical that he is still here and still has people thinking he can turn it around.

 

[Lentwood]

I'm not actually entire sure about that but this should not even be up for a debate, we've spent half a billion since he left and largely on players that ETH handpicked himself.

I think it's much better, see my post above.

I think the players' looked more capable/comfortable under OGS because his tactics were basic and quite conservative.

I genuinely believe EtH has a good squad but is killing it with his crazy tactics.

 

[GueRed]

The football we've played under ten Hag almost makes me miss the Ole days

 

[Drainy]

Who said "every successful team at the professional level is defensive?".

I don't think that was implied by my post, I actually said you COULDNT ultimately be successful in league formats playing that way.

The best teams, the teams who win titles, are attacking, but they attack by controlling games and starving the opposition of the ball and counter attacking opportunities.

They don't play this wild, basketball-style football that leads to crazy variance and huge spaces all over the field.

There are multiple theories for the best way to control games and the meta is constantly shifting.

United are attempting to get a system working that is one of the current 'meta' strategies. They aren't there yet for a few reasons

 

[Lay]

It really is comical that he is still here and still has people thinking he can turn it around.

fecking hell. Yet people still want him in. Why don't we have standards anymore?

 

[Robbie Boy]

Our lack of control in games is absolutely infuriating.

 

[Zumbi]

No one is falling for propaganda. If you think this is the same structure as last season then there's a wider problem with how you've viewed the games.

It still has flaws, we do get into compromising positions but we aren't remotely as open as we were (barring the Liverpool fixture).

You’re not falling for the propaganda. You are the propaganda.

 

[VP89]

It's exactly the same structure bar the lack of striker. And that we played with a higher line at OT vs Fulham and looked good for about 30 minutes out of possession.

In possession nothing has changed at all, front 5 pushed up hiding from the ball, no movement, recycling possession between full back and winger, then it goes back and we recycle between Casemiro and the CBs, then it goes back to Onana and he or Casemiro punts it to the other team. Rinse and repeat.

So off the ball we are different and we also play a higher line.
I agree our offensive game needs work, but in case you didn't know that's been taken over by a new coach who needs time.

Thanks for basically confirming that we set up differently, in any case.

 

[VP89]

You’re not falling for the propaganda. You are the propaganda.

A worthwhile post cheers mate.

 

[laughtersassassin]

The football we've played under ten Hag almost makes me miss the Ole days

Ole was better than ETH just didn't win cups so had nothing to save him.

Both not good enough though

 

[Dec9003]

Thats not remotely accurate. We are playing in a different style to last season. It's obviously got its flaws but to suggest it's the same is quite lazy.

Suggesting there's no game model is lazy too.


I think you need to read more into when certain appointments were made.

The shape is different when we press now, but the principles are the same as last season really. We looked less open against Fulham (sort of) and we conceded fewer shots, but we also have an actual defence inplace now which will naturally improve things without changing the system. I think on the ball we are very similar, one deep midfielder with a lot of options high infront of him, with two midfielders often operating closer to the striker than their deepest midfield partner.


The 'new' shape actually started toward the end of last season after the terrible result vs Palace. It was tested against Newcastle and worked, it looked like it was setting a way of playing for the cup final which again, to ETH's credit did work. I don't think it has worked as well on the whole this season, though. We still look too open and changing to have four players high in our press is probably a little bit naive, as we are naturally going to be open if a team can beat that initial press. It especially doesn't work with Zirkzee and Rashford in the side, as they don't press as well as the front four did last season, which features MCT who is no longer here. Despite all the poor results, if ETH can change his principles and system, he can still be successful here. Sadly, I don't believe he is going to do that.

 

[Raw]

Our lack of control in games is absolutely infuriating.

It really is. It's one thing losing a midfield battle to City/Liverpool/Arsenal, but when you're conceding multiple big chances against teams like Fulham at home then you feel like pulling your hair out. It's so clearly a tactical decision that ETH is too stubborn to change.

 

[Offside]

The football we've played under ten Hag almost makes me miss the Ole days

We had no control of games as now but we had such firepower. Now we can barely score a goal. Leaky at the back. Abysmal keeper and non existent midfield. We’re a broken team.

 

[AlexUTD]

Erik Ten Hag: "It is a process. Yes we came 7th last season but we won the Carling Cup and only Man City have won more trophies than us the 3 last seasons. Trust the process."

 

[AarhusUnited]

You’re 100% right and these posts are really tiring. Some posters go to incredible lengths to justify Zirkzee as a ten Hag signing just because of his passport. There’s enough to bash ETH with, but some people love to make up stuff, and say the weirdest things, just to push their agendas, like taking Sancho’s side over ten Hag, or claiming that he’s still the one identifying players and giving their names to Ineos, etc. They are doing exactly what you said: burying their heads in the sand.

I am 100% in agreement with you here.. But even if all these players was picked by ETH, where have all those posters been for the last 10 years.. I am sure the club told ETH to pick those players he wanted, because it was easier for them and he got to be the fall guy when everything came falling down. And even if thats not the case, no manager should have so much power over transfers, or anything else for that matter, at a club like United.. If he wanted that power, United should have looked elsewhere. Just show how bad we have been run..
I want him out, but i dont blame him for everything there is wrong with this club, there are lots of reasons to want him out, but transfers aint one of them, they might be bad, but he should never been given that power in the first place..

 

[ROFLUTION]

You sack the new manager if things stay the same. Same as every other club. I don't get what's crazy about that. It's the standard practically everyone employs. It doesn't permanently make United worse if that is done. I don't get the hesitancy to doing that.

No. You sack the manager if you have a better option. What's the point of sacking if you just leave it to someone crap?

 

[DSG]

It’s hard for them to back down when they’ve invested so much into him already. He could get us relegated and there would be threads justifying this and proving that nobody could do better.

I mean, I think they are absolutely demented for taking their position, but at that point, even the Ten Hag Inners would admit he’s not good enough.

It is only 3 games into the season. Can he turn it around? 5% chance? If Leicester can win the league I suppose it’s possible that Ten Hag can…

 

[Sarni]

I think it's much better, see my post above.

I think the players' looked more capable/comfortable under OGS because his tactics were basic and quite conservative.

I genuinely believe EtH has a good squad but is killing it with his crazy tactics.

I find it hard to assess his squad because he basically makes almost every single player worse. It’s definitely better than the level it’s performing at, but whether it’s a good one we cannot be sure until we have a proper manager managing it.

 

[Shark]

No. You sack the manager if you have a better option. What's the point of sacking if you just leave it to someone crap?

Probably around 80% of managers in the PL alone are better options, nevermind other leagues. We're not talking about replacing somebody even like Mourinho or LVG who had incredibly more pedigree than ETH. What has he achieved that has fans like you so sure there's no better options in world football? It's just bizarre.

 

[Rojofiam]

I am 100% in agreement with you here.. But even if all these players was picked by ETH, where have all those posters been for the last 10 years.. I am sure the club told ETH to pick those players he wanted, because it was easier for them and he got to be the fall guy when everything came falling down. And even if thats not the case, no manager should have so much power over transfers, or anything else for that matter, at a club like United.. If he wanted that power, United should have looked elsewhere. Just show how bad we have been run..
I want him out, but i dont blame him for everything there is wrong with this club, there are lots of reasons to want him out, but transfers aint one of them, they might be bad, but he should never been given that power in the first place..

I don't even think they've been that bad. Apart from Antony, I'm pretty sure most managers would love to work with every other ex-Ajax player he signed: Onana, Mazraoui, Martínez, de Ligt. These players are all perfectly compatible with playing a modern, possession-based, high line, high pressing type of football, which most top managers' philosophies heavily revolve around anyway.