Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

Erik ten Hag

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Woziak said:
There really is ole scored 73 goals in the EPL not 121 in the EPL, 73 goals, Cavani, Greenwood a semi motivated Martial, a younger faster Rashford, Igalho as a seasoned veteran and you compare this current attacking 6 to that, lingard and Pogba even contributed with goals that season and I’m sure Cavani got 15 overall and hardly played?

This is the most woeful, inept attacking squad I’ve ever seen at United, it’s truly awful and will struggle to score 50-55 PL goals this season!
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Sorry, I don't buy that an attack of Rashford, Fernandes, and Hojlund isn't one of the best in the Premier League, and it's them that forgot how to play football, instead of the manager. And then you have Garnacho and Amad on the right hand side, as well az Zirkzee as a facilitator false 9 to offer tactical variety. This is an attack that has been underperforming massively because of the tactical setup being detrimental, not one that's simply not good enough to score a lot of goals.

And Gyökeres is not solving any problems for us, either. He's not a 100 million striker. Just a striker who went to an arguably weaker league overall(other than the big 3 and maybe Braga, none of the teams in the Portugese league could earn promotion in the Championship, and the overall player quality is also higher in the latter), but to a much better team (Coventry -> Sporting), and has a much easier job there.
 
Von Mistelroum said:
Yeah we're in serious, serious trouble. We'll stick with him until it's completely impossible to do anything else. This will mean another horrendous season ahead. So sad to see another write off season.
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What's scary is that considering the financial constraints we are under; and having gone all in with ETH the past 3 transfer windows - spending well over 600 million quid in getting 'his players'

How much financial latitude do we have after we sack him? (We just have to look at our transfer activities in the summer.) How do we attract a proper manager after being financially hog-tied with ETHs deadwoods? We have never backed a manager financially as much as we have had with ETH.
 
Rojofiam said:
Sorry, I don't buy that an attack of Rashford, Fernandes, and Hojlund isn't one of the best in the Premier League, and it's them that forgot how to play football, instead of the manager. And then you have Garnacho and Amad on the right hand side, as well az Zirkzee as a facilitator false 9 to offer tactical variety. This is an attack that has been underperforming massively because of the tactical setup being detrimental, not one that's simply not good enough to score a lot of goals.

And Gyökeres is not solving any problems for us, either. He's not a 100 million striker. Just a striker who went to an arguably weaker league overall(other than the big 3 and maybe Braga, none of the teams in the Portugese league could earn promotion in the Championship, and the overall player quality is also higher in the latter), but to a much better team (Coventry -> Sporting), and has a much easier job there.
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Rashford (27) soon and lost his mojo, a new coach might reinvent it, Bruno didn’t do it for Portugal, take the pens away abd his first season, can you really rely on him for 15-20 goals and please Rasmus can’t stay fit and at the highest level, international football he was truly awful for Denmark, remind me how many goals he scored under a different manager ?

Gyrokes is the only mistake Brighton have made, put him in Arsenal or Chelsea team and he’ll clean up, born goal scorer.
 
Woziak said:
Rashford (27) soon and lost his mojo, a new coach might reinvent it, Bruno didn’t do it for Portugal, take the pens away abd his first season, can you really rely on him for 15-20 goals and please Rasmus can’t stay fit and at the highest level, international football he was truly awful for Denmark, remind me how many goals he scored under a different manager ?

Gyrokes is the only mistake Brighton have made, put him in Arsenal or Chelsea team and he’ll clean up, born goal scorer.
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Probably best to leave it at that because I think you're wrong on everything. 27 isn't old by any means, Hojlund is elite, so is Bruno, and Gyökeres is way too overrated.
 
So Berrada and Ashworth giving Ten Hag the dreaded vote of confidence before the Liverpool game and we're going into international break
 
sglowrider said:
What's scary is that considering the financial constraints we are under; and having gone all in with ETH the past 3 transfer windows - spending well over 600 million quid in getting 'his players'

How much financial latitude do we have after we sack him? (We just have to look at our transfer activities in the summer.) How do we attract a proper manager after being financially hog-tied with ETHs deadwoods? We have never backed a manager financially as much as we have had with ETH.
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The pitch to the next guy will have to be "work with what you've got". Which unfortunately will turn off some candidates, but that's just how the cookie crumbles.
 
Skills said:
I think winning the league is extremely hard in this era, and we don't even qualify for the CL half the time and when we do we humiliated in the group stages for the most part.

Tellingly though, the one things that's stayed constant throughout the last decade is that the underlying stats have never rated us as a team. Even in seasons we've finished in the top 4 or second the underlying stats have suggested we're not as good as the table says. That to me, gives away the quality of the managers we've had at the club.

SeasonxPts (Expected Points)Actual PointsTable PositionxPts Position
23/2444.24608th15th
22/2366.4753rd5th
21/2254.52586th8th
20/2165.64742nd4th
19/2070.99663rd4th
18/1961.86666th4th
17/1862.33802nd6th
16/1770.89696th4th
15/1656.44665th8th
14/1563.03704th4th
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You could also make the argument that the managers have overachieved despite the level of performance put out by the team? I think ETH needs to leave but just playing devils advocate
 
Things can always be worse. We could be Chelsea!

Joking aside, our history has shown periods of dominance and periods of failure. United will be back. Buckle up and the process of what's happening now will pay off in the next couple years.
 
The Hilton said:
How can I be "hiding behind" asking you to actually expand on your opinion? That's projection at it's finest.

I'm not against replacing ETH with someone for whom a good argument can be made that they'd do better. I'm just not aware of anyone who's available for whom that's the case. If you can make a case for someone then great, but otherwise your opinion is nothing more than rolling the dice, which could easily make things worse - ETH may be failing to get us playing the type of football we're after, but he still has control of the dressing room. Our last caretaker left us with a huge amount of infighting and egos that we haven't properly cleared out until this transfer window.
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Our last caretaker didn’t leave us with egos. He did not get any new player and the ones he already had have proven to be yet again not good enough, thus having the need for a squad clear out. On the other hand, Eth has actively burdened us with buys of his who were exorbitant and cannot be shifted despite being absolutely woeful for us.

I cannot give you a single name, because I do not have the experience or the vast network which Ashworth has to do his job. You keep asking for names as if it’s the job of the fans to suggest alternatives. It absolutely is not. However fans see what is served each week and know when it is not good enough. Yet you keep asking for alternatives as if the posters on here are equipped to provide you that.

It is not a question of who can I get as better but rather a question of ‘is keeping Eth going to improve us?’ If the answer is not yes, it is the job of the DOF and the Board to find the right guy.

You or I are not making a decision on who should replace him. It’s a discussion on a forum regarding whether he is good enough for Manchester United. Why don’t you let me know your thoughts on that instead of asking inane questions about giving you a replacement name as if you are the hiring committee.
 
Rolaholic said:
Being compelled to say anything at all officially just 2 matches in is definitely an alarm bell moment in and of itself...
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True... And seemingly embargoed until after the Liverpool game.

As though a heavy loss was predicted, and wanted to stop the noise/speculation, through the international break. Weird.
 
Robindinho said:
True... And seemingly embargoed until after the Liverpool game.

As though a heavy loss was predicted, and wanted to stop the noise/speculation, through the international break. Weird.
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It is weird.

Before these interviews came out, I didn‘t think Ten Hag would sacked just yet. Too much has been invested in supporting him, and we brought in two players from Bayern that played for him.

I think they are planning on continuing with Ten Hag until it becomes clear he can‘t turn things around. That‘s why they released the interviews probably.
 
He’ll be gone soon if results and performances don’t improve. And I don’t think they will, at least not enough.

Good to know thoss interviews were before Liverpool. Though even if they were before it wouldn’t necessarily mean much - pretty sure all the previous managers got the support from Woodward and Co before getting sacked one morning.
 
Seriously folks, you need to chill out. Brighton (A) and Pool (H) are pretty tough fixtures. I want him gone as much as everyone here but we'll clearly improve in the next few. He will be around this season unfortunately. Hopefully Tuchel remains available when he's inevitably sacked.
 
Woziak said:
This squad is currently not good enough for top 6, that’s why we came 8th last season with 14 defeats and -1 GD, guess what 1/12th of a new season 66% loss rate and •3 GD,

Let’s be realistic here City, Liverpool, Arsenal , Chelsea, Newcastle, Chelsea and Villa have far better squads right now. Each of those teams has at least 2/3 players who will get you 10-15 goals in the EPL this season, we barely have 1!

It’s time to get real Watkins, Bailey and Rogers or Duran are better than what we have, Isaak, Gordon, Barnes are far superior to our front three and the other teams reserve strikers are better than our front three, We don’t score Goals and this needs to be addressed immediately or ETH must go!

When Fans were losing their s…over Zirkzee to go with Hojlund, I said then we need a top number 9, that’s what United do go spend £100m on Victor Gyrokes and do it in January , tell the other two strikers if they are not at double figure by January one of them will be replaced, that’s how United need to operate, we’ve been a joke for far too long!
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Villa just straight up don't, Chelsea are a shit show and Newcastle are in poor form and have their own issues with Howe seemingly loosing it a bit, FFP etc. We'll get ~65-70 pts ish this season as we did for the last decade. I think we'll finish 5th as a result with Liverpool, Arsenal and City locking up 3/5 spots and likely Spurs at 4th.

A WC #9 won't do anything without a midfield and defence to back it up - we were going to play Evans, Maguire, Amass and Dalot as our defenders and a past-it Casemiro and Mainoo as our mids. The prioritization of transfer targets was right. Signing an Osimhen wouldn't have fixed anything.

Ultimately Ten Hag's pressing scheme was ineffective against Pool. Doesn't mean it'll be ineffective against the likes of Southampton.

Woziak said:
We are talking about attack, Scoring goals my friend let me remind you of last year PL teams top goal scorers in order ;
1. Man City - 96 goals
2. Atsenal - 91 goals
3. Liverpool - 86 Goals
4. Newcastle - 85 Goals
5. Chelsea - 77 Goals
6. Villa. - 76 Goals
7. spurs. - 74 Goals
8. West Ham - 60 Goals
= 10th Man Utd - 57 Goals
= 10th Palace - 57 Gials


This suggests your argument is incredibly flawed as United under ETH or in the previous season under Ragnorak scored less than 59 goals!
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Last season was shit due to a once in a decade injury crisis, why not use the previous year's tallies?
 
NK86 said:
Our last caretaker didn’t leave us with egos. He did not get any new player and the ones he already had have proven to be yet again not good enough, thus having the need for a squad clear out. On the other hand, Eth has actively burdened us with buys of his who were exorbitant and cannot be shifted despite being absolutely woeful for us.

I cannot give you a single name, because I do not have the experience or the vast network which Ashworth has to do his job. You keep asking for names as if it’s the job of the fans to suggest alternatives. It absolutely is not. However fans see what is served each week and know when it is not good enough. Yet you keep asking for alternatives as if the posters on here are equipped to provide you that.

It is not a question of who can I get as better but rather a question of ‘is keeping Eth going to improve us?’ If the answer is not yes, it is the job of the DOF and the Board to find the right guy.

You or I are not making a decision on who should replace him. It’s a discussion on a forum regarding whether he is good enough for Manchester United. Why don’t you let me know your thoughts on that instead of asking inane questions about giving you a replacement name as if you are the hiring committee.
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Plenty of names to replace Ten Hag were mentioned last season, but people will find what ever reason as to why it would be a bad decision or just plain ignore it.
The idea there are no none more capable than a guy that led us to 8th with a negative GD setting multiple negative records on the way is laughable.
 
Baffled at the 186 Caf members who voted him to stay. But then you look at the list and see his staunchest supporters. @VP89 @BenitoSTARR @NLunited

They are pretty quiet though.

I think the start to this season has been underwhelming enough that we probably don’t need any more data to make a decision. I thought the way he set up against Liverpool was borderline mentally incompetent. The positioning of his defenders is moronic. Dalot, pinching in to “help with possession and buildup” was so far out of position when we lost the ball, that 3rd goal was an inevitability.

Bruno is right. Every team loses the ball, it’s how we react and what our shape is like after the turnover that matters.

I think Ten Hag has ruined Rashford.

I think Ten Hag is halfway to ruining Bruno.

I think he’s starting to ruin Garnacho and, most disturbingly, Mainoo, who should be protected at all costs.

Question to all of the Ten Hag supporters: Given where we are now, is there a future where you can actually see Ten Hag lifting the Premier League trophy as any club’s manager, much less Man United?
 
Teja said:
Villa just straight up don't, Chelsea are a shit show and Newcastle are in poor form and have their own issues with Howe seemingly loosing it a bit, FFP etc. We'll get ~65-70 pts ish this season as we did for the last decade. I think we'll finish 5th as a result with Liverpool, Arsenal and City locking up 3/5 spots and likely Spurs at 4th.

A WC #9 won't do anything without a midfield and defence to back it up - we were going to play Evans, Maguire, Amass and Dalot as our defenders and a past-it Casemiro and Mainoo as our mids. The prioritization of transfer targets was right. Signing an Osimhen wouldn't have fixed anything.

Ultimately Ten Hag's pressing scheme was ineffective against Pool. Doesn't mean it'll be ineffective against the likes of Southampton.



Last season was shit due to a once in a decade injury crisis, why not use the previous year's tallies?
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“Ten Hag’s pressing scheme” haha

It’s month 29 and I don’t think we’ve ever had a consistent pressing scheme.
 
Fortitude said:
Instruction. The core principle is as rapid a vertical progression as possible, which plays a huge hand in how many unnecessary turnovers there are from forced passes that aren’t on from players who shouldn’t be attempting them in the first place.
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DSG said:
Baffled at the 186 Caf members who voted him to stay. But then you look at the list and see his staunchest supporters. @VP89 @BenitoSTARR @NLunited

They are pretty quiet though.

I think the start to this season has been underwhelming enough that we probably don’t need any more data to make a decision. I thought the way he set up against Liverpool was borderline mentally incompetent. The positioning of his defenders is moronic. Dalot, pinching in to “help with possession and buildup” was so far out of position when we lost the ball, that 3rd goal was an inevitability.

Bruno is right. Every team loses the ball, it’s how we react and what our shape is like after the turnover that matters.

I think Ten Hag has ruined Rashford.

I think Ten Hag is halfway to ruining Bruno.

I think he’s starting to ruin Garnacho and, most disturbingly, Mainoo, who should be protected at all costs.

Question to all of the Ten Hag supporters: Given where we are now, is there a future where you can actually see Ten Hag lifting the Premier League trophy as any club’s manager, much less Man United?
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I still firmly believe @Sarni is a world class WUM that will reveal himself after Ten Hag is gone. Time will tell.
 
DSG said:
Baffled at the 186 Caf members who voted him to stay. But then you look at the list and see his staunchest supporters. @VP89 @BenitoSTARR @NLunited

They are pretty quiet though.

I think the start to this season has been underwhelming enough that we probably don’t need any more data to make a decision. I thought the way he set up against Liverpool was borderline mentally incompetent. The positioning of his defenders is moronic. Dalot, pinching in to “help with possession and buildup” was so far out of position when we lost the ball, that 3rd goal was an inevitability.

Bruno is right. Every team loses the ball, it’s how we react and what our shape is like after the turnover that matters.

I think Ten Hag has ruined Rashford.

I think Ten Hag is halfway to ruining Bruno.

I think he’s starting to ruin Garnacho and, most disturbingly, Mainoo, who should be protected at all costs.

Question to all of the Ten Hag supporters: Given where we are now, is there a future where you can actually see Ten Hag lifting the Premier League trophy as any club’s manager, much less Man United?
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In fairness I don't think INEOS cares about what the caf's class of 186 think of Ten Hag, they would have kept him anyway.
 
I remember when we were kids and we started playing competitive 5-a-side football - it didn't take six thirteen year old lads more than two or three games to work out that if you tried to play end-to-end attacking football, you'd almost always lose to the team that sat back in formation and picked you off.

EtH still hasn't figured this out three seasons in...that's the most frightening thing...the system he's trying (and failing) to implement won't work even when it's perfect. So we're striving for something that's flawed.
 
Fooza said:


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The most unsurprising briefing. They were never letting him go three games into the season after extending his contract for another season in the summer. Doing it would be admitting it was a mistake and guys with big egos hardly do that. Things would have to get much much worse for them to pull the trigger. Until then the excuses will be rolled out after each defeat. Or like during the Woody era we'd have news about the new stadium plans and infra improvements that would be released.

Hopefully, in the meantime they will lay the groundwork for a better appointment to start from next season. This season can be written off as a transition season for these guys.
 
simonhch said:
“Match tactical plan”, sounds like they are going to start telling him how to play. Which can only be good news.
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No,, it doesn't. What that means is that they are going to provide him the background support so that he can fully concentrate on training and the matches rather than worry about anything else. Basically, he'll be a coach from now on.
 
DSG said:
Question to all of the Ten Hag supporters: Given where we are now, is there a future where you can actually see Ten Hag lifting the Premier League trophy as any club’s manager, much less Man United?
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Think there's a lot of steps before that. We are 3 games in and Im generally quiet because I want to see more games before I decide how this tweaked style and new players go.
 
Knew there would be tis reaction to a Liverpool defeat. The opening results arent good, performances either, though signs of improvement. They dont sway my views to be honest, as think they will improve....I wanted him gone in the summer anyway.

What does however reinforce wanting him gone is some of the things I read....

He wanted McTominay to stay as valued him.

He wanted Amrabat back at the club.

That shows a lack of good judgement to me...thankfully these thoughts were overturned.

So the staunch supporters can use the injuries, the fact heonlynow has a proper squadand that hehasshown discipline with players and bringing in youngsters.....all of which are true. i simplydont trust his judgement and decision making on top of all heothernegatives, eventhoughI feel results will improve fora while I feel
 
devilish said:
Yoro, De Ligt, Zirkzee, Ugarte, Martinez and Mazraoui are hardly shit players. What we need is a change in tactics. Whenever we attack we go too gung-ho which leads to huge gaps in CM when we get countered. Even prime Roy Keane would struggle with the space left a midfield were the two CM + the two wingers bomb forward
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I meant mediocre players. The "All the shit...." was an expression.

ETH has bought:

- 150m+ of defenders
- 150m+ CM's and AM's
- 100m+ strikers
- 80m+ wingers

With the resources already there, you'd think that kind of spend would form the basis of a team that is ready to challenge for bigger prizes. Do you think we are though?
 
djd said:
But that's the point, there's little evidence the team is being developed.

In fact there's not much evidence the team is being coached, which is the very definition of Ten Hag's job.
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I'd say yes and no.

I think it's only fair to play devil's advocate if you are to sack a manager after 3 games in a new season. So let's take a look how he's done with coaching players.

How much can you coach Onana's personal errors away?

How much can you coach an insane amount of injuries away? Being pragmatic and having to play an Amrabat/McTominay is a big obstacle in achieving your goals.

Players who've evolved under EtH.
Dalot
Garnacho (might have anyways, but to be fair EtH chose to give him the chance and put faith in him)
Mainoo (might have anyways, but to be fair EtH chose to give him the chance and put faith in him)

Players who've generally been coached well:
Martinez
Shaw (no more lazyness problems)
Evans
McTominay (Can you really coach him better than he's been?)
Wan Bissaka (He can actually now play it out under pressure and has more directness about him. First games prove it too at West Ham. Did lose motivation quite a lot last season, so could be sideways too)
Maguire

Players who've gone sideways:
Højlund - I'll reserve judgement, but I wont say it's EtH's fault completely that he hasn't been a hit
Bruno
Eriksen (doesn't play much, so it's hard to judge him, but he's aging and EtH did managed that and took him out and used him when needed)
Lindelöf

Players who've declined:
Rashford (overall - he did have one brilliant season under EtH too)
Onana (Not sure if he's just gone sideways - could have been in that category too and just had one brilliant season/outlier-season at Inter)
Casemiro (It was his natural projection anyways)
Antony (big time)

The point is: The squad hasn't really had any great competition so EtH could pick between players. Last year was always at least 3-6 notable players out, so there wasn't any need to prove yourself as you'd just be handed the start anyways. At City and Arsenal there's always competition and you need to prove yourself every single game. Those mechanics are still not at work at United.

I'll let you other guys flog ETH and I probably will disagree with most saying we've been underperforming, but I think you need to see it all through devil's advocate lenses too to truly see why we've been underperforming. So much of it is actually on the recruitment side of things and by not having a competitive squad where there's quality and everyone knows their role. Also it was plain wrong from the previous regime to just leave Transfers with ETH. The blame should lie with them no matter how crap Antony has been.
 
Lentwood said:
I remember when we were kids and we started playing competitive 5-a-side football - it didn't take six thirteen year old lads more than two or three games to work out that if you tried to play end-to-end attacking football, you'd almost always lose to the team that sat back in formation and picked you off.

EtH still hasn't figured this out three seasons in...that's the most frightening thing...the system he's trying (and failing) to implement won't work even when it's perfect. So we're striving for something that's flawed.
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And this is one of the biggest talking points since 2023 preseason; we're working towards something that isn't special nor hard to combat in its ultimate form. And on top, still an unsustainable way to play out a full campaign.

That's why this is a hiding to nothing. Your players have to be *so* much better than everyone else, you'd need a Qatari state fund to make it feasible.
 
Fooza said:


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They are fitting right in. Wait until it's FUBAR, when it's completely unrecoverable and maximum depth is reached, but just late enough in the season that no manager would leave their club. Then appoint some interim and write the season off. We Go Again™ next season. Another false dawn.
 
Lentwood said:
I remember when we were kids and we started playing competitive 5-a-side football - it didn't take six thirteen year old lads more than two or three games to work out that if you tried to play end-to-end attacking football, you'd almost always lose to the team that sat back in formation and picked you off.

EtH still hasn't figured this out three seasons in...that's the most frightening thing...the system he's trying (and failing) to implement won't work even when it's perfect. So we're striving for something that's flawed.
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I think that and the lack of rotation are majorly responsible for our injury issues too.
 
"I think we won, after City, the most trophies in English football so I'm sorry for you" ?

Really, the intolerable bullshit he says would almost be enough in itself to put his position in question. Does he seriously think anyone regards him as a success story because he won two domestic cups? After presiding over the worst Premier League campaign in club history?
 
He can't keep playing this type of football he has to bite the bullet and change it. Even when Ugarte comes in it may be slightly better as he has more energy however the same problems will occur again. He's trying to set up this team like his ajax side but that simply does not work in the Premier league, if he sticks with it he will be sacked. I do think if they sack him it will be van nistelrooy that takes over at least until the end of the season.
 
ROFLUTION said:
I'd say yes and no.

I think it's only fair to play devil's advocate if you are to sack a manager after 3 games in a new season. So let's take a look how he's done with coaching players.

How much can you coach Onana's personal errors away?

How much can you coach an insane amount of injuries away? Being pragmatic and having to play an Amrabat/McTominay is a big obstacle in achieving your goals.

Players who've evolved under EtH.
Dalot
Garnacho (might have anyways, but to be fair EtH chose to give him the chance and put faith in him)
Mainoo (might have anyways, but to be fair EtH chose to give him the chance and put faith in him)

Players who've generally been coached well:
Martinez
Shaw (no more lazyness problems)
Evans
McTominay (Can you really coach him better than he's been?)
Wan Bissaka (He can actually now play it out under pressure and has more directness about him. First games prove it too at West Ham. Did lose motivation quite a lot last season, so could be sideways too)
Maguire

Players who've gone sideways:
Højlund - I'll reserve judgement, but I wont say it's EtH's fault completely that he hasn't been a hit
Bruno
Eriksen (doesn't play much, so it's hard to judge him, but he's aging and EtH did managed that and took him out and used him when needed)
Lindelöf

Players who've declined:
Rashford (overall - he did have one brilliant season under EtH too)
Onana (Not sure if he's just gone sideways - could have been in that category too and just had one brilliant season/outlier-season at Inter)
Casemiro (It was his natural projection anyways)
Antony (big time)

The point is: The squad hasn't really had any great competition so EtH could pick between players. Last year was always at least 3-6 notable players out, so there wasn't any need to prove yourself as you'd just be handed the start anyways. At City and Arsenal there's always competition and you need to prove yourself every single game. Those mechanics are still not at work at United.

I'll let you other guys flog ETH and I probably will disagree with most saying we've been underperforming, but I think you need to see it all through devil's advocate lenses too to truly see why we've been underperforming. So much of it is actually on the recruitment side of things and by not having a competitive squad where there's quality and everyone knows their role. Also it was plain wrong from the previous regime to just leave Transfers with ETH. The blame should lie with them no matter how crap Antony has been.
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This is such arsewater excusism, ETH has been integral to the recruitment process, and the players we have are and had last season are better than he has set them up to be, not saying we have the players to challenge Man City, but the tactical errors that ETH has made and persisted with are beyond inept and have been what has hurt us, ignoring that is incredible....

There are a dozen teams in the prem that have worse squads than us, and did last season, and yet we were comfortably the worst footballing side in the league last season, and lets be honest here so far this season there is little change, other coaches seem to be able to get lesser players playing together in a way that maximises what they have, not ETH he makes us the easiest team to play against in any top league.

but yeah carry on blame everyone but Ten Hag, madness beyond madness
 
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