Thinking about it more, it's scary how much we probably need Mainoo this season.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
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I just said he won a tropy and got rid of terrible players. I can add improving player individually like Rashford and AWB, but other than that, the second main thing people say he is here for has been lacking. Style of play.
You're bringing the collective IQ of the forum down with your posts.
That didn't stop fergie.
What brings the collective IQ of the forum down is calling counter attacking football transition football.
Mate, you shouldn't double down on such stuff. If a manager needs 11 of his own players to look improved to last season in the 1st match against a pretty unprepared Wolves team, than something is off. Calling for his head or being seriously worried at this point is a bit premature but lets not put BS arguments in front of it. It will things only make worse and debates will become more frantic.
No manager is perfect. Certainly not ETH. So be it. We need to go a certain way, even if it isn't the most straight or greatest or fastest way, changing managers all the time isn't an option. And as long as it isn't an option, OTT criticism should be off the table.
He's done plenty of good mate. Last season was a pretty success season for a new manager inheriting what he inherited. I'm really not sure what your expectations were for last season.
Or not understanding the difference...
He's done well but the style of play is still as horrendous as ever.
Last season was the first time since Fergie we finished top 4 and won a trophy.
How is that not considered a good debut season for Ten Hag ?
How is that not considered a good debut season for Ten Hag ?
Absurd. Moments FC bailed us out of this game.
Doubling down my arse.
Is our current squad good enough?
Does our current squad have major holes in key positions like midfield and striker?
Answer those questions with a bit of common sense and honesty and you arrive at the same conclusion as me.
Look at Chelsea. Look at Arsenal. Look at City. We need to continue to buy more players; lots of them. Fail to do that and we’ll pay the price.
I have a feeling I'm going to warming up the aul' ignore button fairly soon judging by the crap being posted in here by a certain few after ONE game of the season
I think our players are more than good enough to play good attacking football, but ETH is trying to turn lead into gold by trying to create a system from scratch yet again by getting certain players to play in positions/roles they aren't actually suited to. Why get Onana, Mount and Martinez etc to play "transition football" when their skill sets are different.
We ended the season winning 8 of our last 11 league games.
At times, they will. At other times, they won’t. This is because our best players aren’t that good.
They’re good, but they’re flakey. Look at Rashford; he’s arguably our best player, yet he’s as thick as mince.
We need a lot more, even now.
That's not fair, let @Samid vent.
Disagree. They are more than capable, they are being set up wrong.
We have zero cohesion in the final third. Not one player with a good consistent cross in the team.
When Liverpool were good, they rained in crosses from Trent and Robbo until teams caved in.
When Liverpool were good, they rained in crosses from Trent and Robbo until teams caved in.
With Rashford and Bruno you feel we're kind of geared towards this type of football. Pep laughs at Rashford as he can't keep the ball, we have Bruno the same. Garnacho a direct player that is best against a tired side. Antony and Sancho probably more suited but quite isolated and no central striker (tonight and past seasons).
Hojlund is a young prospect but I've been impressed with his hold up play and predicted during the summer we'd be relying on him. With Hojlund and Sancho looking much sharper, maybe another midfielder in Amrabat and Bruno dropping a bit deeper and Case up to fitness we can look like a much better side. It's still a very off the cuff moments side, isolated players hoping for a breakthrough.
With Mount he can perhaps swap in for advanced players and weaker sides. Wolves came to OT last year and ran the midfield, and have done so again. If Mount was to work in a City style midfield we just don't have the ball retention to carry it out further forward. Like I say though, Hojlund and a strong sharp Sancho could be a surprise key to make this work against more skillful sides.
Hojlund is a young prospect but I've been impressed with his hold up play and predicted during the summer we'd be relying on him. With Hojlund and Sancho looking much sharper, maybe another midfielder in Amrabat and Bruno dropping a bit deeper and Case up to fitness we can look like a much better side. It's still a very off the cuff moments side, isolated players hoping for a breakthrough.
With Mount he can perhaps swap in for advanced players and weaker sides. Wolves came to OT last year and ran the midfield, and have done so again. If Mount was to work in a City style midfield we just don't have the ball retention to carry it out further forward. Like I say though, Hojlund and a strong sharp Sancho could be a surprise key to make this work against more skillful sides.
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Yes and no.
There is no midfielder at the club capable of playing to the desired standard in a deeper position alongside Casemiro. We also don’t have a fit striker at the club. We can’t change the system even if we wanted to.
Agreed. He’s tactically elite.
Judging by this game case is not up to it either.
That one was obvious, the Bruno-Mount-Casemiro midfield is as flawed as McFred. No assured passers and Casemiro looks like last season took too much out of aging legs, if we don't invest in an alternate he is going to pull a Matic on us.
Is our squad perfect? No it isn't. Is it good enough to be the better team against Wolves? Of course it is.
Some of you guys are exclusively looking for new players to improve things. But is only one aspect of it. Not even City has the perfect squad even if they are probably the closest to it. And if we lose to City or Arsenal because of one point at the end of the season, we can meet again and talk about new players.
Don't want to argue with you - at the end of the day, we are on the same side because I, just like you, think that criticism on ETH, while perfectly legitimate, should stay fair. But if this standpoint is backed up with weak arguments, it doesn't really help.
Believe it or not - we will never have the perfect squad. But lets not act as if this is the reason we deliver performances like tonight.
3 points more important but it is very worrying how even a wolves side keep hold off the ball better than us. Have to improve or we are in for a hiding from a big side.
The complete lack of ability to control a game is worrying. We basically play Ole ball every game still.
Problem with that is he'd need another 400 mill to get the signings he wants and most of ETHs signings will become the new dead wood.
Some thoughts from the game and ETH's post match comments.
1. While the first half seemed really bad, I'm not totally convinced that we had a tactical issue rather than an execution issue. In our build up from the back, Shaw and Casemiro go into a flat 2, and Licha often had an open lane to hit the ball straight into Garnacho or Mount's feet in wide areas. Ideally, Garnacho and Mount have the option to spin, or play first time balls into Shaw, Casemiro, or Bruno, who seemed to create numerical overloads, allowing us to progress up the middle block. The problem was the passes were too slow and the touches too lax, for us to do this often - but those were not particularly difficult passes or movements for the technical quality of our players (and I don't think that I am not one of those who overestimates the skillset of our players generally). Hopefully this improves with time and match sharpness.
2. When we did progress the ball in the first half, we were often able to get Antony and Garnacho face-up, 1 on 1 with their wing backs, with space and options to run into. At this point, you do need some quality, especially in touch and decision making, but these are "good" attacking scenarios. We blew these opportunities, and it may be right to be worried about our quality in the final third, especially with players like Antony (who simply has to add to his attacking bow this season to be an effective top 4 level attacker), but I thought the general approach to the attacking transitions was fine.
3. I really disliked Mount and Bruno's position in our build up phase, but ETH's comments shed some light on what we were trying to do. I think its likely that midfield ball progression is actually going to fall on the likes of Shaw, Licha, and Casemiro, who are supposed to have the best opportunities to be "open" in the build up phase (given the midfield overload). Mount and Bruno remain high because of their quickness over shorter spaces and ability to press and regain turnovers in the opponents low block, which they did effectively on occasion. I think this is also why Casemiro seemed to have a poor game. He dived into many challenges in the mid block when Wolves broke the Bruno / Mount line rather than drop deep and defend space in front of the back line, perhaps because of the "win it high" tactical approach. I think this is also why Wolves were so willing to dribble out the back continually - the ability to beat that press deep in your own half may be the best bet to create chances, and they were fairly confident in their recovery pace should that approach fail.
4. Neither Rashford nor Sancho are likely to be good fits for the 9 role in this set up. Rashford because his main weapons are facing up defenders in direct attacking transitions, not forcing center backs deep and bringing his midfield into play. Sancho because of his very limited pressing ability in the opposition low block. Again, we have to hope Rasmus hits the ground running, or some working version of Martial (though he also isn't the best presser, but much better than Sancho is blocking passing lanes).
1. While the first half seemed really bad, I'm not totally convinced that we had a tactical issue rather than an execution issue. In our build up from the back, Shaw and Casemiro go into a flat 2, and Licha often had an open lane to hit the ball straight into Garnacho or Mount's feet in wide areas. Ideally, Garnacho and Mount have the option to spin, or play first time balls into Shaw, Casemiro, or Bruno, who seemed to create numerical overloads, allowing us to progress up the middle block. The problem was the passes were too slow and the touches too lax, for us to do this often - but those were not particularly difficult passes or movements for the technical quality of our players (and I don't think that I am not one of those who overestimates the skillset of our players generally). Hopefully this improves with time and match sharpness.
2. When we did progress the ball in the first half, we were often able to get Antony and Garnacho face-up, 1 on 1 with their wing backs, with space and options to run into. At this point, you do need some quality, especially in touch and decision making, but these are "good" attacking scenarios. We blew these opportunities, and it may be right to be worried about our quality in the final third, especially with players like Antony (who simply has to add to his attacking bow this season to be an effective top 4 level attacker), but I thought the general approach to the attacking transitions was fine.
3. I really disliked Mount and Bruno's position in our build up phase, but ETH's comments shed some light on what we were trying to do. I think its likely that midfield ball progression is actually going to fall on the likes of Shaw, Licha, and Casemiro, who are supposed to have the best opportunities to be "open" in the build up phase (given the midfield overload). Mount and Bruno remain high because of their quickness over shorter spaces and ability to press and regain turnovers in the opponents low block, which they did effectively on occasion. I think this is also why Casemiro seemed to have a poor game. He dived into many challenges in the mid block when Wolves broke the Bruno / Mount line rather than drop deep and defend space in front of the back line, perhaps because of the "win it high" tactical approach. I think this is also why Wolves were so willing to dribble out the back continually - the ability to beat that press deep in your own half may be the best bet to create chances, and they were fairly confident in their recovery pace should that approach fail.
4. Neither Rashford nor Sancho are likely to be good fits for the 9 role in this set up. Rashford because his main weapons are facing up defenders in direct attacking transitions, not forcing center backs deep and bringing his midfield into play. Sancho because of his very limited pressing ability in the opposition low block. Again, we have to hope Rasmus hits the ground running, or some working version of Martial (though he also isn't the best presser, but much better than Sancho is blocking passing lanes).
People are actually complaining about ten Hag after one bad game? Seriously feck right off with that.
What's his release clause? Probably something characteristically absurd like 50m (*I realize it's probably closer to 15-20m, but Brighton are really playing their part in inflating the player and manager market...)
Lets be real and remember that such passive-aggressive posts aren't really helping either. Bad performances will always bring in critics. And a fraction of them will be OTT. This has probably always been this way. It will be the same in the future.
I am sure personal insults will surely help to calm the situation down.
I said it during pre-season and I'll say it now, playing this way is a suicidal approach in modern football and we're going to get battered more than once because we're so bloody easy to play through. I like Mount as a player but he doesn't fit in with Bruno because they both leave Casemiro exposed and Case cannot do it all on his own. I don't see at all why we needed to buy Mount and that money should've been spent elsewhere.
It isn't knee jerk after one game because it's literally been there for donkey's years and we are seemingly incapable of fixing that issue.
Absolutely cacking the thought of going to the Etihad or especially Anfield, it's gonna be a cricket score.
We're basically hoping to be Bielsa's Leeds but actually have some form of quality but even that's rarely been on show for sustained periods. I just don't understand the approach at all, even taking into account the type of squad we have.
It isn't knee jerk after one game because it's literally been there for donkey's years and we are seemingly incapable of fixing that issue.
Absolutely cacking the thought of going to the Etihad or especially Anfield, it's gonna be a cricket score.
We're basically hoping to be Bielsa's Leeds but actually have some form of quality but even that's rarely been on show for sustained periods. I just don't understand the approach at all, even taking into account the type of squad we have.
Not if we also bought Brighton's recruitment team (and their CEO). We could spent a lump sum then save on it by acquiring obscure players for buttons (well, buttons plus united U23 mark-up) and sell the remnants for 50m each...
Did a great job in his first full season and gets my full support until the end of this one. If the football is still poor then he was given a fair crack at it. I’ll take poor performances if picking up 3 points until our new striker is fully integrated.
This thread is utterly embarrassing tonight. Thank god match going reds have more sense than half the Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime in here.
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