Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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OpenIntrovert said:
As expected there is a trademark explosion by the "fans" on yesterday's result. But on proper analysis it is more to do with the formation than the players.

I can understand why ETH continued with the 4-1-2-3 formation as the players are already familiarized with that approach in pre-season and in terms of their role based training. The issue is with using a midfielder who likes to drop too deep as a false 9. A false 9 should be more like Messi where he tends to roam around the middle and front of the attacking half, capable of dribbling through the channels or creating chances for the 2 wide forwards. Eriksen tried to help out the central midfield in his pressing and ended up moving away from his position, resulting in Rashford and Sancho unable to cut in and receive passes. To be fair to ETH, Brighton's formation did not allow Eriksen any space as well. Its basically a mismatch of formation as Brighton was playing a 3-6-1 variant where they easily countered our 4-1-2-3.

In the 2nd half, ETH started to move towards a 3-6-1 variant with Ronaldo staying up, Rashford and Sancho as 2 wingers and a 4-man midfield of Shaw Bruno McTominay Dalot (Shaw and Dalot as wingbacks) and Eriksen becoming a regista in front of Maguire and Martinez which helped to counter Brighton's formation, but we just missed too many chances. If ETH had originally used the formation of a 3-5-2 diamond, it would be a different result altogether. Rashford and Sancho as the front 2, with Bruno acting as the AM, Shaw Eriksen Dalot as the CM and Wingbacks, Fred as the DM and Martinez, Maguire and Varane as the CBs would have turned the result in our favour.

The good thing is that ETH is capable of making tactical changes quickly and is not afraid to withdraw his original plan (e.g. Fred changed for Ronaldo). Its quite promising actually, since this means he will be utilizing a different approach against Brentford based on what he has learnt against Brighton.
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What you mean is in your opinion its to do with formation.

These players have been puttimg these performances in for years. Under different managers, in different formations.

I don't think any further analysis is needed. They aren't good enough.
 
Unam333 said:
I had a good night sleep, but after waking up I felt irritated.

One positive we lost early is Ten Hag saw with his own eyes that our players are not good enough.
Now let's see if he learned from yesterday's game.
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He needs to learn quickly and realize that this "clean slate" shit isn't going to work. Half of these players are waaaaaaaay past any clean slates.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
You can't take them for granted but we really should be beating Brighton at home. All things considered.
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We should but we have to accept the mire we are in. Last season has completely broken this team. It's like we are collectively facing football depression. Unless we bolster the squad with strong additions quick it'll be a season of very very slow recovery.
 
altodevil said:
So you are basing this premise from one line in a telegraph article?
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I’d link you the athletic and other sources also but I doubt you’d be inclined to read them seeing as you’re adamant I’ve made this up and you’re burying your head in the sand.

Here’s what Whitwell said on a podcast recently:

 
Ayoba said:
If we lose against Brentford, the game after that is Liverpool which is a certain loss. Could be 3 defeats from 3.

It could get very ugly very quickly!
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Exactly you can have a 3 yrs project but the situation can become ugly and difficult to manage in few weeks

With 0 pts in 3 games would be already an emergency situation in only 3 weeks
 
We can't all revise what's obvious just because a new season has started.

This team was absolutely finished in February. No sense of collective or confidence whatsoever. It was the most disgraceful end to a season a premier league team has ever offered, they werent even going through the motions. It was clear to every pundit and amateur that this side needed massive massive surgery, 'open heart surgery' according to rangnick.

Instead, we added a free transfer, a defender and a sub left back and are sitting here wondering what's going wrong? Come on, there was universal agreement in may about the extent of rebuild needed here and we haven't even put a dent in it.

No manager, not klopp, not guardiola, not ancelotti, can get any more from what we have, and all the optimism that can come from a new manager and set up has been destroyed by the usual suspects- glazers and their band of amateur non football men.

There is no point in any other conversation right now.
 
SER19 said:
We can't all revise what's obvious just because a new season has started.

This team was absolutely finished in February. No sense of collective or confidence whatsoever. It was the most disgraceful end to a season a premier league team has ever offered, they werent even going through the motions. It was clear to every pundit and amateur that this side needed massive massive surgery, 'open heart surgery' according to rangnick.

Instead, we added a free transfer, a defender and a sub left back and are sitting here wondering what's going wrong? Come on, there was universal agreement in may about the extent of rebuild needed here and we haven't even put a dent in it.

No manager, not klopp, not guardiola, not ancelotti, can get any more from what we have, and all the optimism that can come from a new manager and set up has been destroyed by the usual suspects- glazers and their band of amateur non football men.

There is no point in any other conversation right now.
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Exactly. This team was left absolutely butchered last season. You'd be hard pressed to find a team as loathed by their fan base and as mocked by others as United of 21/22. We were supposed to react to that as a club of Manchester United should - with a strong desire to mend things.

Instead were just limping around with a few bandages pretending things aren't too bad.

Whatever we say about Rangnick the coach I'll always maintain that he understood the extent of the problem. That's the most important part of fixing anything.
 
Sviken said:
He needs to learn quickly and realize that this "clean slate" shit isn't going to work. Half of these players are waaaaaaaay past any clean slates.
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I don't know if it's about a clean slate, and more so about confidence in his ability to mask them through his system for at least a brief period of time. I think the preseason fed his confidence on this. Because we at least know that he from the start wanted better midfielders (hence the Frenkie situation). So it's not like it's a complete clean slate.
 
Marwood said:
What you mean is in your opinion its to do with formation.

These players have been puttimg these performances in for years. Under different managers, in different formations.

I don't think any further analysis is needed. They aren't good enough.
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Even if you have the world's best players, if you play them in a formation where their positions are easily countered by the opponent's formation, they will struggle. Playing a 4-1-2-3 against a 3-6-1 is bound to collapse as the 6 man midfield will squeeze the space of a 3 man midfield. It doesn't matter if you have the best DM and best CMs, there is just not enough space to work with. ETH realized this, which is why he made a formation shift in the 2nd half, leading to better control and a goal.
 
Ten Hag is a specialist coach. He should be fixated on football, training and tactics.

He's identifying and targeting transfer targets because there is no joined up thinking behind him at the club. He can't say "I need players in these positions and they need to have these attributes", because it's clear that our club isn't set up to take that information from him, and simply execute deals for player who suit his requirements for each position.

We identified a man who we thought could come in and reshape the club to work effectively and efficiently, knitting the backroom operations more tightly with the view and style of the coach. We even wasted 6 months on him in a role he was unsuited to, presumably in the hope that by taking on that role, he would gain greater insight into what was needed. But then, when he started to outline that the level of change that was actually needed, as opposed to some easy papering over of cracks, we turned him into a laughing stock and alienated him until he left.

So here we are, having brought in a talented and forward thinking coach, but having fixed none of the issues that plagued the coaches who went before him. Instead of giving him a squad to compete in time for a preseason to work with them, we've given him a weaker squad than the one which scraped home in 6th last year and asked him to work miracles. Now we'll rush through a couple of bandaid transfers, we might even force the De Jong deal over the line, but the lads coming in will have to deal with the pressure of being our fix all and saviours of a situation that should never have been allowed to happen.

There is no transfer, appointment or competition that could be made or won this year, that is more important than getting the Glazers out of our club. It should be the overriding objective and focus of every single fan.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
They also showed progress throughout the season.

The season is long, but you can't give time without it being earned.

Hopefully we look back at this result in 6 months and laugh.
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We will, I am cautiously optimistic about the development and recruitment of the right players to fit into Ten Hag's tactical needs.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Exactly. This team was left absolutely butchered last season. You'd be hard pressed to find a team as loathed by their fan base and as mocked by others as United of 21/22. We were supposed to react to that as a club of Manchester United should - with a strong desire to mend things.

Instead were just limping around with a few bandages pretending things aren't too bad.

Whatever we say about Rangnick the coach I'll always maintain that he understood the extent of the problem. That's the most important part of fixing anything.
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Completely agree re rangnick. No he shouldn't have continued as manager, but he was just so calculated in his assessment, he knew we just had to take a rotten few months of terrible results then really start a rebuild this summer. He was blunt in public about what was needed and I imagine the board resented it
 
The forum becomes to difficult to post anything beyond basic observations after a match. People are disappointed and angry and possibly venting. I am personally still happy to see how things develop and don't have any intention of making any judgements either way at this point on the manager and the team until there is more evidence to base it on.

This is simply our starting point and we must measure the team from here.
 
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It makes me sad how far off we have fallen. Every other troll post is about United now, I don't get agitated but just wonder how bad have we become to be subjected to this sort of mockery. Whatever opponent we face, they must think that they can get at us and defeat, which is fair because we are genuinely bad. The only good thing about United right now is finally we have a manger who the majority of the fan base agree with, but everything else has been setup for him to fail, the board, the players. TBH, now I don't have any clue how the club can be fixed.
 
sglowrider said:
Huh? You just woke up from a coma otherwise I am not sure whats causing your hysteria.

We have a DOF now. The board of management doesn't make any footballing decisions other than budgetary.

Its been delegated to our DOF, Murtough. And FYI, new CEO too.
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So the lack of ideas for recruitment is down to director of football and CEO. It just show the incompetence : the board appointed the wrong people, after almost a decade of Woodward. If you are happy with that, it’s good for you mate.
 
To be completely fair, this loss against Brighton is on Ten Hag. Poor team management. He's learning the hard way some things we've known for a while.

That starting McFred and Bruno in midfield is a recipe for disaster, there's no ball control. That while Fred has his qualities (such as being a good presser and a quick player in transition), putting him in the base of midfield exposes his poor first touch and physical weakness making him a target for the press. I don't know if waiting for Frenkie and not signing another #6 was his idea, but if so he's further liable for that mess in midfield. He had Eriksen at his disposal and instead of playing him on the #8 or #6 position, he played him on the #9 where he was utterly wasted. By the time he switched things around in the second half, the game had run away from him.

Finally he left too many subs for the 89th minute, by which time the only effect they had was to run down the clock further.
 
Redfrog said:
So the lack of ideas for recruitment is down to director of football and CEO. It just show the incompetence : the board appointed the wrong people, after almost a decade of Woodward. If you are happy with that, it’s good for you mate.
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Sure I am not the sort to pass judgement based on one match (ETH) or a few months of being in charge (DOF).
But if that's how you judge things or shoot from the hip approach, more power to you. But hopefully, you are smart enough not to do that with your real working life.
 
The majority of the players we have are mid to lower end of the table quality and they are under massive pressure and devoid of confidence.

No manager would be able to make Rashford Maguire and Shaw etc into top of the table players - they just arent it. They will never be it. They never were it.
Just because the play for United doesnt make them good players.

A team can maybe carry one or two less good players from time to time - but in key positions we have shite players and we are looking to carry a load of shite in every match. Thats the facts.

ETH cant be judged until, or unless even, that he gets rid of them and brings in his own set of players.

If the board doesnt back him then thats another story.

I would genuinely like to see the younger lads play in place of the utter shit first team that we have in place
 
SER19 said:
Completely agree re rangnick. No he shouldn't have continued as manager, but he was just so calculated in his assessment, he knew we just had to take a rotten few months of terrible results then really start a rebuild this summer. He was blunt in public about what was needed and I imagine the board resented it
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United is still a public listed company. Any employee of a listed company who blabbed on as much as he did in public deserves to be sacked. It was naive of him. The platform was just too big for him. Its not some news show or Youtube channel.

Don't think he was accustomed to a spotlight being so bright.
 
nau05194 said:
The forum becomes to difficult to post anything beyond basic observations after a match. People are disappointed and angry and possibly venting. I am personally still happy to see how things develop and don't have any intention of making any judgements either way at this point on the manager and the team until there is more evidence to base it on.

This is simply our starting point and we must measure the team from here.
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Excellent post!
 
McGrathsipan said:
The majority of the players we have are mid to lower end of the table quality and they are under massive pressure and devoid of confidence.

No manager would be able to make Rashford Maguire and Shaw etc into top of the table players - they just arent it. They will never be it. They never were it.
Just because the play for United doesnt make them good players.

A team can maybe carry one or two less good players from time to time - but in key positions we have shite players and we are looking to carry a load of shite in every match. Thats the facts.

ETH cant be judged until, or unless even, that he gets rid of them and brings in his own set of players.

If the board doesnt back him then thats another story.

I would genuinely like to see the younger lads play in place of the utter shit first team that we have in place
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But a few of players he had at Ajax were PL rejects. Yet he made them to be superstars in the CL.

He has a system that works. He just needs time.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
By rights?
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On paper.

United have the better players. The difference between the two sides was the tactics (EtH's fault) and the coaching (not EtH's fault at this stage of the season).

I like his ideas. And I think they'll be successful in the long run. But he also has a stubbornness that's reminiscent of LvG. He basically pretended that Fred was FdJ yesterday, rather than doing the pragmatic thing and playing McFred in their natural roles.

It's going to be a long and bumpy road until he gets the precise players he needs. At the moment, it looks like he isn't the kind of adaptable manager that can drag any old group of players into something better than they used to be. That's not a dig at him because even some of the greats were the same. Just a (very very) early observation.
 
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He’s been set up to fail (like all of our managers) No scouting network, just relying on him and players he’s worked with or watched while at Erdevise.

He should’ve had players in before pre season and concentrated on what he does best - coaching.

We need so many players to start and for depth. That squad is in hell of a state.
 
If he is a proper manager Shaw, Maguire and McFred will be on the bench next week. We are already losing with them so give me Malacia, Varane, Eriksen/Garner. Apparently Eriksen played more forward passes in the limited time he was moved to CM than Fred or McTominay had played the whole time they were on the pitch. Just saying club isn't gonna get any better or win many games as long as Fred, McTominay and Maguire are 3/4 of the CM & CB
 
Classical Mechanic said:
The parallels with LVG's early days are strong too. Some good stuff in pre-season but then a wretched opening day defeat at home against a side we should be beating by rights.
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I don't like the LVG comparison because LVG's pattern of plays were far more dull than what we saw with ETH. Like you could see some of what Klopp and Pep do in ETH"s tactics compared to LVG's. The only thing LVG did is prioritize possession, but his sides lacked, what on the surface, looks like risk taking (quick vertical progression of the ball, and over the top passes).
 
JJ12 said:
He’s been set up to fail (like all of our managers) No scouting network, just relying on him and players he’s worked with or watched while at Erdevisie.

He should’ve had players in before pre season and concentrated on what he does best - coaching.
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That seems based more on speculation. It could well be that it was him who insisted on waiting for FDJ and rejecting suggestions for other #6s. In which case the lack of #6 at the start of the season burdens him the most.

In any case he had Eriksen and instead of playing him at #8 to help with ball control in midfield, he played him at #9. He could have played Ronaldo at #9, or if he didn't want to play Ronaldo from the off then Rashford up top and Elanga/Garnacho at LW. But no, he chose the most unorthodox line up by playing without a ball playing CM and without a striker and he paid for it. He didn't need setting up to fail yesterday, he achieved that by himself.

EDIT: Yes, sure, there are glaring problems with the club and its recruitment. And yes, ETH of course deserves time to suss things out. We're not saying otherwise. But yesterday he had the options to set up a better team than he did and chose not to. So most of the blame lies with him for this particular game. Let's hope he learns from it.
 
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Dante said:
It's going to be a long and bumpy road until he gets the precise players he needs. At the moment, it looks like he isn't the kind of adaptable manager that can drag any old group of players into something better than they used to be. That's not a dig at him because even some of the greats were the same. Just a (very very) early observation.
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It's worth noting that United played Brighton in the second last game of last season and were thrashed 4-0, could have been even more. It's only 3 months since that match and we started this season with nine players from last season's squad, only Eriksen and Martinez as new additions. I know it's only Brighton, but Potter has made a serious team there that regularly put it up to the top teams and know how to beat United. You could make an argument that strip away the hype and this was always going to be a very difficult first match-up for Ten Hag. I think he is capable of making players better but it's hard to judge it just off one difficult match-up.
 
SER19 said:
We can't all revise what's obvious just because a new season has started.

This team was absolutely finished in February. No sense of collective or confidence whatsoever. It was the most disgraceful end to a season a premier league team has ever offered, they werent even going through the motions. It was clear to every pundit and amateur that this side needed massive massive surgery, 'open heart surgery' according to rangnick.

Instead, we added a free transfer, a defender and a sub left back and are sitting here wondering what's going wrong? Come on, there was universal agreement in may about the extent of rebuild needed here and we haven't even put a dent in it.

No manager, not klopp, not guardiola, not ancelotti, can get any more from what we have, and all the optimism that can come from a new manager and set up has been destroyed by the usual suspects- glazers and their band of amateur non football men.

There is no point in any other conversation right now.
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The amazing thing for me is that our top three areas to improve at the start of the summer were defensive midfield, right back and striker... so we start the season with Dalot, McTominay and no striker whatsoever! A midfielder was needed from the last start of last season, never mind this season. They've had over a year to identify a player. Matic has left too, so I would argue we need two, not just one. Haven't even got one in.
 
The fact that the club made him manager, rather than head coach indicated that it was going to be business as usual.
 
Sviken said:
He needs to learn quickly and realize that this "clean slate" shit isn't going to work. Half of these players are waaaaaaaay past any clean slates.
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Apart from that, Ten Hag needs to get new players in and promote youngsters pronto. Time to get ruthless on and off the pitch. Sticking to the usual suspects won't get us top 4.
 
Why do new managers come here and immediately reject advice from the old regime? I understand wanting to be your own man and all, but listening to others is always a good thing.

This is not your average club. Expectations are always sky high and results have been piss poor. This is not a time to go solo.
 
Apart from the deer in the headlights moment subbing three players on the 89th minute, I can't understand why Malacia didn't start. If he's not better than Shaw or Dalot then why the flip did we sign him.
 
Jacob said:
His first mistake was getting rid of Rangnick (if he did).
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Yeah he should've had the humility and wisdom to at least meet with Rangnick and hear his assessment of the squad.

It's a bit tiresome to keep switching managers only for them to go through the same tedious process of slowly coming to the conclusion certain players are crap, when we've all known it for ages.
 
Maguire will struggle to play a high line . De Gea, Awb and Fred will always struggle to play out from the back. The team will struggle to control the game against a high intense pressing team with McFred and Bruno in midfield. Rashford will always be unreliable. These are inevitable and will all be problems for Ten Hag
 
I don't think he is the one who got rid of Rangnick, people like Murtough and Fletcher probably convinced him it wasn't a good idea to keep him after last season.

Remember the leaks that Murtough wasn't talking to Rangnick and their relationship was broken, we just need to imagine what he said to Ten Hag about him and his time at the club.
 
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