Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Lash]

Every manager has a vision. Even you or me or any Tom, Dick or Harry can have a vision. The 50 managers between Busby and Fergie had a vision That doesn't mean that they all have the ability and the nous to execute that vision. We have seen ETH for two seasons now and it should be pretty evident to everyone that he is not up to the task. We don't need to listen or read about his vision anymore. What we needed to believe in him was watch it being executed on the pitch, not listening to it on some show.

He came in and demanded a big say in the transfers. Then he went on and picked his ex Ajax players, the players who played for him previously or the players he was aware of from the Dutch league or elsewhere to execute his "vision" at this club. So far, he has failed spectacularly in every department - he hasn't recruited well, he hasn't implemented a good style of play, got us winning or laid a foundation for the future. However, now, Dan Ashworth and Joe Wilcox or whoever else will come and recruit players and suddenly he'll be able to implement his vision? How is that logical?

This "New Structure" has become kind of a Holy Grail and a potent excuse to defend this failing manager. Anyone will admit that we didn't have the right people in charge on the recruitment side of this club and is one of the main reasons we have been this shit the last XI years. However, the problem with the structure is that it indulges the managers too much and there is no one with the authority in those management positions. The structure has failed this club and us fans, not these fecking managers who have wasted money and walked out with huge payouts. We have allowed each and every manager to throw 500m down the drain without thinking about the long-term future of the club. Our cycle is - Get a new manager, call every player bought by the previous manager deadwood, buy him new toys worth half a billion dollars, make the finals of or win a mickey mouse cup or two for instant gratification and then sack them when they inevitably fail.

We simply have to accept the fact that he isn't good enough. Winning with Ajax and taking them to a single CL semi-final some years back is no guarantee that the manager will succeed at United. There have been plenty like DeBoer, Bosz etc. who won plenty with Ajax and then sold their vision to the world but failed to execute it elsewhere. ETH is no different. No structure can save him.

Yet you want to just repeat it by just sacking him? Why not actually let the new structure give a coach what they deem the requisite players to execute the collective vision. If he can't do it next year, his contract is up - what's the problem? If we sack him, we then have to:

a) find someone available and potentially pay for them
b) find someone who fits the style we want to implement
c) sign players to implement style
d) give them time to get the team into the style required.

We have to do c) regardless. Why not break the cycle of giving the manager free reign on transfers and give him one final season with a proper functioning football operation behind him? If he can't do it then, he obviously isn't the manager for us. You have to hope in the summer this lot will not sign players a la Casemiro, Varane and overpay for Antony, so the players they sign will not be deadwood for a new manager.

 

[izak]

So much talk over a guy who is getting sacked in less than 2 months time regardless. I'm much more concerned about his replacement.

Who would replaces him is the big question that needs answering??

 

[RedRover]

Hats off to United fans. I am baffled that a manager who has underperformed all season, missing out on champions league spot by a margin, out of champions league in group stage is still being backed in here.

Ange at Spurs has come in and lost the club leading scorer is ahead. Emery who joined after Ten Hag is ahead at a smaller club. Yet fans think Ten Hag is the answer.

Seems there's two schools of thought, to some degree.

Either, Ten Hag is a misunderstood genius who will if given time and with (essentially) a new team transition the club into the future - like Cruyff did with Barcelona.

Or, he's one of a number of managers who've come to the PL after performing in a less competitive league and is out of his depth.

Personally, I think the evidence suggests it's more than the latter. The current "chaos" system we seem to be employing might be exciting to watch, and arguably, goes against the general football narrative (i.e. try to control the game/don't concede chances) but it doesn't make it clever or revolutionary. The more chances you concede, the more likely you are to concede. Playing on the break against mid-table opposition isn't sustainable. Every system he's tried to employ, other PL managers have worked out. If Liverpool's forwards could finish we'd have ben four down at half time.

The structure at the club has been terrible and that has probably made his job a lot harder. Doesn't mean he's good enough.

The idea that there is nobody who could do better, I don't agree with. There's half a dozen PL managers who'd be doing a better job.

 

[pocco]

It’s a childish article.

It was just light-hearted fun, no big deal.

 

[Jev]

It was just light-hearted fun, no big deal.

Couldn’t really tell if the journalist was being sarcastic.

 

[Fortitude]

There was that one game where Ole brought on all the fullbacks, can't remember which one, but all the subs were either a right back or left back.

@Fortitude has a point, Dutch coaching style is very different and if you haven't grown up with that teaching, it's can be very hard even as a professional footballer to pick up all the finer details, if as he says the coach doesn't know how to bridge that knowledge gap. Which may very well be the case.

It's part of the reason I took comparisons to Ange and Emery lightly, their styles and instructions are very simplistic by comparison and players have adapted to them much quicker as a result.

The problem ETH has at Utd is simple, he lacks footballers with the intelligence and technical ability to play how he wants. LVG had a lot of better more intelligent players, that's why they were able to acclimatise and adapt to his style much quicker. Maybe he's a better teacher than ETH, but even still I think he'd struggle to get this group of players playing that way.

The Overlap episode with Rooney divulging some of LVG's principles and teaching go a long way to further explaining the point about Dutch philosphies and the implementation of them to an audience who are not familiar. LVG force-fed his squad information and data and made them process it in all forms, which they found absurd, but the reality is that he basically put them through footballing school with theory (bespoke folders of information), visual interpretation (he made them watch hours and hours of footage to the point some of the players dreaded it), homework (that they were supposed to do on their own time and come back to him and prove they had done) to repetition (coaching drills over and over and over again) to application (what we clearly see as by far the best coaching and execution of a managers wishes in the entire post-Fergie era). What also separates him from the others is the fearlessness in getting kids out of the academy and into the first team if they excelled in the processing of the information, and equally, his fearlessness in moving on those who were too old or stuck in their ways to take on his teaching. We were coached to comfortably par best levels in the country and I'd say with a better set of players, he'd have had us challenging for the title, but the fundamental points are that he took the squad and moulded it to exactly what he wanted and left no room for doubt that his ideas had been wholly conveyed, whether the fanbase found that boring or not, there wasn't a question that it had been taught and assimilated.

It puts him a few levels above ten Hag as a coach because he knew exactly how to make those who have no schooling in the complexities of Dutch football within the space of a preseason. When people say these things take time, it really is coach dependent as their methods will determine what is and is not taken on board. Van Gaal basically made it impossible not to understand given he probed all methods of learning to force realisation - perhaps you don't get it via the hands on drilling, so you've got a folder full of information supporting it. Perhaps you still don't get it, so he's compiled a bespoke video highlighting everything you're not doing right (much to the umbrage of some of our players who didn't like criticism, let alone constructive criticism they were expected to learn from). On top of that, one to one conversations, testing their knowledge and all the other things that are perceived as wacky, but are in fact making sure they had taken on the information and could then apply it in a real world setting (game time). LVG was always known as a teacher as well as a coach, so it makes sense. In my previous post, I said perhaps ten Hag is fine tuned to those students who will go on to world beaters but has no clue how to bridge the gap with the more simple unlearned in the class; LVG simply did not have that problem - if you were willing to try, he would have you taught in very short order, none of this two years to implement business. Now that might be sound and dandy in terms of the football, but in terms of the personnel and personable elements, it's no wonder players have varying stories about hating him or his methods, so whilst he may get you up to speed on the pitch, by that time, he may have students who cannot stand him and can't wait to be rid of him, which it's pretty clear ten Hag doesn't have, as his players are giving their all for him despite the morale being all over the place, so the ideal is somewhere in-between both coaches.

Incidentally, Pep is more LVG than ETH in force-feeding his principles down the throats of his squad, to the point where, if you don't get it, you literally don't play, and he will give over a year for a student to take his class and pass it. He obviously gets away with it for a plethora of reasons, but it goes to show that schooling is paramount and we see the coaches that get players to perform to the wire on what they ask of them and the ones that don't. It's clear by now that ETH doesn't have the capacity to convert, so what would have to happen for him is a blanket reset and getting new players in who have a higher capacity for learning. The problem there is, you are supposed to earn that, and the crux is whether this new management buy into what he tells them in their meetings as to whether he will be granted that time. If he gets it, he's seriously the luckiest and most blessed from above manager we've had in the post-Fergie era because, multiple times over, he could have easily seen the door under different circumstances. His margins for error have been enormous compared to the others who were on a death spiral the moment things went really badly for them.

Agree with the bolded.

 

[pocco]

Couldn’t really tell if the journalist was being sarcastic.

In what way? I think he knows that we don't really intend to give the opposition so much space.

 

[Jev]

In what way? I think he knows that we don't really intend to give the opposition so much space.

Well, then he was being sarcastic.

 

[Fortitude]

I'm Dutch and a big Van Gaal school fan back in the day. I don't think Fortitude has a point for the arguments stated above. Plenty of evidence and facts prove Ten Hag is anything but ''wooden', does a lot of tinkering but in the meantime finally gives United a new, regular starting tactic in 4-2-3-1. And perhaps this is why we are still P6 after so many injuries: the subs don't have to learn new things. Positioning and tailor made instructions to say Maguire, Mctominay, its obvious for anyone to see.

Also, Pep Leijnders has been backbone of Klopp for years. Rene Meulensteen for SAF. Pep been schooled by lots of Dutch trainers. Arteta did schooling in The Netherlands. Somehow 'the Dutch system'' is well permeated through the PL and has been for years.

Ten Hag is a modern exponent but actually his style is not 'Dutch' at all. He plays way different. On top of that whatever the Dutch system was, its old and obsolete. And for all the Cruyff love, he, too, would just park the bus if it would mean a win.

I remain, what Ten Hag wants to play, requires players he doesn't have for the full. It is also quite unique. As a lot of top managers in the PL make it such a rich ground for tactical geniuses and show casing. I have full faith in him for the moment.

What would make you stop having that you might ask? If he has a 3 or more bad game run of losses. If after a succesfull summer transfers, next season sees no improvement and we hover P7. But I had that stance last year too, when I expected the Glazers to sell before the summer and give Ten Hag the means for a big overhaul.
Also, maybe even more important: I like watching Ten Hags united. Its full of fight, feisty and you never know how and if they come back but that they can fight back has been proved many times. I love it. I'm still buzzing over that LFC win.

There is no pure Dutch system implemented here since LVG had his time, but I stated it's an amalgamation of Dutch, Spanish and German principles homogenising now as elements from each are used and extracted in most systems we see. ten Hag's principles are clearly Dutch, even if he doesn't respect the possession aspects of midfield, he expects his players to be eclectic (Total) and to have immediate and intricate understanding of what to do when left to their own devices. Players are not taught to play multiple positions to a very high level in England throughout their education; some may have the gift and ability to do so, but it is not an expectation. The ability to switch and cover and be seamless in sequences that are not within your positional remit, have nothing to do with English football and are inherently Dutch and something they've taken to other nations and had them take on board to varying degree.

You say the old systems are obsolete, but the reality is they have been built upon and are still the cornerstone of so much we see for a number of teams, whether the players know it or not. ten Hag is so Dutch in his belief his players will get it that you probably just take it for granted whilst it's quite way out for England to think players are just seamless in transitions or unfamiliar areas of the pitch to them. Part of the extraction from chaos is that your players understand what's unfolding faster than the opposition does and can adapt to it on the fly. That's great when your holding midfielder is versed in centreback, fullback and sweeper play and can drop into any of those positions on a whim and play a pseudo role until everything is back in order. Not so much if your guys only know the confines of the role they are trained in. There's order to the chaos along those lines because your players aren't unsettled despite not being in their nominal positions for a period of time. You can't implement that with players who have no grasp of what it's like to play roles that aren't theirs until it's no longer required of them.

I apologise, but I can't really make sense of your post(s) in terms of what it is you want to ask or state. You also seem to think I'm a fan of De Zerbi or want him here. I've made no suggestion toward that, just highlighted he was one of those coaches who isn't afraid of making mistakes or being introspective enough to take a look at what's not working and adjust it accordingly.

 

[Insanity]

Yet you want to just repeat it by just sacking him? Why not actually let the new structure give a coach what they deem the requisite players to execute the collective vision. If he can't do it next year, his contract is up - what's the problem? If we sack him, we then have to:

a) find someone available and potentially pay for them
b) find someone who fits the style we want to implement
c) sign players to implement style
d) give them time to get the team into the style required.

We have to do c) regardless. Why not break the cycle of giving the manager free reign on transfers and give him one final season with a proper functioning football operation behind him? If he can't do it then, he obviously isn't the manager for us. You have to hope in the summer this lot will not sign players a la Casemiro, Varane and overpay for Antony, so the players they sign will not be deadwood for a new manager.

So, he couldn't do it with his hand-picked players but will be able to do it with the players that the new structure going to pick for him?

Will he be the only one who'll get a chance in his new structure or will we need to do justice to our other managers too?

How will the cycle go: ETH - Ole - VG - Jose - Moyes or will we start from Moyes after ETH and go Moyes - Jose - VG - Ole?

I don't think you read my full post or may be I wasn't able to explain my point clearly. The cycle we need to break is hiring these duds and giving them a carte blanche to recruit the players they want to implement their "vision". I don't think the structure failed Ole because it didn't get him the correct players, I think the structure failed in giving Ole the full time job. If you get my point.

No structure is perfect, if there was a perfect structure then managers won't ever be fired but only retire. My expectations from the structure is a little different from everyone else'. I want it to decide on a vision for this club, not every incoming manager. What we have done in the last XI years is to let every new manager come in with their "vision" and then recruit players they wanted to implement that vision. Which has led us to a medley of players who are part of different visions of different managers. I'll give you an example, Licha is an excellent footballer, probably the best player ETH has bought in the last two years. He has an excellent vision and reading of the game. He is a warrior. His passing is wonderful and he is a good defender. However, due to lack of height and physicality, I bet you that eight out of ten managers won't use him in central defense. The same way Smalling and Blind, which was a very good partnership, was broken when Jose came in for VG.

Once the structure decides a vision for the club, then it needs to recruit managers and players to execute that vision. Getting every manager a whole new sixteen is not a sustainable way to run a football club. The structure should be built in such a way that continuity can be maintained even in case a manager doesn't work out and needs to be replaced.

Coming back to Ten Hag, I see no point in giving him another season as I don't think it is going to change anything. His problem hasn't been our lack of recruitment due to our current structure as he has got majority of the players he wanted in the last 2 years. The issue has been he has too many flaws to be a manager at this club

- He is not able to identify players he needs for a physical league like this one.
- He does not believe in rotation. He ran the players into the ground last season.
- He has no style of play and makes it up as he goes. Even with injuries we should have seen improvements in our pressing, passing, set-pieces, set-piece defending etc.
- Last season the excuse was that he wasn't getting time on the training field with games coming thick and fast. Now we play one game a week most weeks and we see the same chaotic style of play.
- He doesn't seem to have the charisma to lead such a big club.

When I look at him and his body of work here, it doesn't scream a man who is going to make us challenge for big trophies again. Does it to you? If no, then what is the point of giving him another season?

 

[pocco]

Well, then he was being sarcastic.

Yeah in that sense. Though there is a bit of a grey area in that we have allowed it to happen all season - so it's difficult to say we don't intend to have these chaotic games in the hope that our attacking threat outperforms their attack.

 

[Jev]

Yeah in that sense. Though there is a bit of a grey area in that we have allowed it to happen all season - so it's difficult to say we don't intend to have these chaotic games in the hope that our attacking threat outperforms their attack.

I think it’s somewhat intentional, otherwise it would have probably been pretty easy to do something about it given that no other team in the world, literally, are as open as us. Though I have no idea why he’d want us playing this way and his bizarre answers when pressed on it aren’t particularly illuminating

 

[Alex99]

I think it’s somewhat intentional, otherwise it would have probably been pretty easy to do something about it given that no other team in the world, literally, are as open as us. Though I have no idea why he’d want us playing this way and his bizarre answers when pressed on it aren’t particularly illuminating

The most bizarre aspect of his answers when he's asked about it is the insistence that it is, in fact, working as intended, and contrary to what anyone who watches us can observe, we're the team dominating games.

I know there's an element of not throwing your players under the bus, but he's got a ready made excuse for the failings. Why he's not saying something like "it's a process and we're still trying to take the necessary steps forward, but it's difficult with injuries affecting the line-up each week" is beyond me.

 

[pocco]

I think it’s somewhat intentional, otherwise it would have probably been pretty easy to do something about it given that no other team in the world, literally, are as open as us. Though I have no idea why he’d want us playing this way and his bizarre answers when pressed on it aren’t particularly illuminating

Yeah I (and everyone who watches us) am with you there. I've seen his sit-down chat with Gullit, which appears to be some PR before the summer, and I think he doesn't have a clue what he's doing anymore. At one point he even says 'it's difficult to have a plan with the ball'...really? Practically every other manager in the PL has implemented a clear plan with the ball.

He thinks he's some sort of genius but he comes across a bit stupid at times, whilst trying to act clever. If you have an idea but nobody else can make sense of it or make it work, then it is simply a poor idea. Talking about players being back in position to prevent counters, when you have placed them high up the pitch, just doesn't make sense. The players aren't robots who can just keep running the length of the pitch all game, quicker than the opposition.

 

[Socratic]

Not against Tuchel at this stage.
Would like Van Nistelrooy in the set up with view to succession plan, put together a good side at PSV but whether he'd take a non-manager position is debateable.

 

[Jev]

The most bizarre aspect of his answers when he's asked about it is the insistence that it is, in fact, working as intended, and contrary to what anyone who watches us can observe, we're the team dominating games.

That, and his insistence that the shot count is not worrying because we’re only conceding low-quality shots. Not only does conceding a lot of shots, regardless of the quality, increase the risk of an unlucky deflection like Chelsea’s winner the other day; anyone who watches our games knows we’re conceding at least a handful of big chances every single game. The fact that we haven’t conceded much more isn’t down to ETH’s calculated risk, it’s a miracle. I don’t get how he gets fans and journalists like Carl Anka to buy into it.

 

[pocco]

The most bizarre aspect of his answers when he's asked about it is the insistence that it is, in fact, working as intended, and contrary to what anyone who watches us can observe, we're the team dominating games.

I know there's an element of not throwing your players under the bus, but he's got a ready made excuse for the failings. Why he's not saying something like "it's a process and we're still trying to take the necessary steps forward, but it's difficult with injuries affecting the line-up each week" is beyond me.

I think he's been trying to drive the narrative for a long time now. The reason for that is open to interpretation, but I noticed he got more nonsensical once INEOS arrived and stopped blaming the players all the time. Personally I feel like it started out as PR for INEOS but now I feel like he's driving the narrative in preparation for him being sacked. The recent article where he is apparently complaining about lack of direction from INEOS, the sit down with Gullit etc, all just makes me think he's on a PR drive and his apparently very active agent is probably behind a lot of it.

 

[Alex99]

That, and his insistence that the shot count is not worrying because we’re only conceding low-quality shots. Not only does conceding a lot of shots, regardless of the quality, increase the risk of an unlucky deflection like Chelsea’s winner the other day; anyone who watches our games knows we’re conceding at least a handful of big chances every single game. The fact that we haven’t conceded much more isn’t down to ETH’s calculated risk, it’s a miracle. I don’t get how he gets fans and journalists like Carl Anka to buy into it.

I could accept the daft shot count thing if were managing an equally daft shot count at the other end. The fact that a lot of our goals are coming from defensive mistakes or individual brilliance, rather than any actual passages of play is extremely worrying, because as you say, we're not just conceding a lot of low quality chances, but at least a couple of decent chances every game too.

I think he's been trying to drive the narrative for a long time now. The reason for that is open to interpretation, but I noticed he got more nonsensical once INEOS arrived and stopped blaming the players all the time. Personally I feel like it started out as PR for INEOS but now I feel like he's driving the narrative in preparation for him being sacked. The recent article where he is apparently complaining about lack of direction from INEOS, the sit down with Gullit etc, all just makes me think he's on a PR drive and his apparently very active agent is probably behind a lot of it.

I said it a while ago, but he'll be gone in the summer with a departure by "mutual agreement". He's putting in the work now, albeit fairly subtly, to get his name out there for a job next season.

He won't want to go into next season with it being the final year of his contract, and we won't want to extend his contract, even by a year. We're very unlikely to qualify for the CL at this point, so we'll be able to activate that clause and get rid of him on the cheap. INEOS want their own man in.

 

[TrebleChamp99]

There is no point in defending him at this point.
He will be replaced whether you like it or not.

He hasnt been offered a new contract and that should tell you everything you need to know about the situation.

If INEOS were confident they wouldnt even risk losing him so they would have Brailsford tying him down.

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

Incidentally, Pep is more LVG than ETH in force-feeding his principles down the throats of his squad, to the point where, if you don't get it, you literally don't play, and he will give over a year for a student to take his class and pass it. He obviously gets away with it for a plethora of reasons, but it goes to show that schooling is paramount and we see the coaches that get players to perform to the wire on what they ask of them and the ones that don't. It's clear by now that ETH doesn't have the capacity to convert, so what would have to happen for him is a blanket reset and getting new players in who have a higher capacity for learning. The problem there is, you are supposed to earn that, and the crux is whether this new management buy into what he tells them in their meetings as to whether he will be granted that time. If he gets it, he's seriously the luckiest and most blessed from above manager we've had in the post-Fergie era because, multiple times over, he could have easily seen the door under different circumstances. His margins for error have been enormous compared to the others who were on a death spiral the moment things went really badly for them.

Agree with the bolded.

I agree with this. Well said. One note from myself: I do believe LvG has lost some touch, even if he still has a great eye for what is needed. But where he failed miserably at United, aside for being too rigid personality and some players just didn't believe in him: during games Van Gaal always stayed seated. He rarely coached from the sideline. His explanation was that the players themselves have to correct one another. This is of course a rather naive and outdated point of view. The modern coach - wich Ten Hag clearly is - does a lot of work during the game. It also makes you more visible to the fans.

There is no pure Dutch system implemented here since LVG had his time, but I stated it's an amalgamation of Dutch, Spanish and German principles homogenising now as elements from each are used and extracted in most systems we see. ten Hag's principles are clearly Dutch, even if he doesn't respect the possession aspects of midfield, he expects his players to be eclectic (Total) and to have immediate and intricate understanding of what to do when left to their own devices. Players are not taught to play multiple positions to a very high level in England throughout their education; some may have the gift and ability to do so, but it is not an expectation. The ability to switch and cover and be seamless in sequences that are not within your positional remit, have nothing to do with English football and are inherently Dutch and something they've taken to other nations and had them take on board to varying degree.

You say the old systems are obsolete, but the reality is they have been built upon and are still the cornerstone of so much we see for a number of teams, whether the players know it or not. ten Hag is so Dutch in his belief his players will get it that you probably just take it for granted whilst it's quite way out for England to think players are just seamless in transitions or unfamiliar areas of the pitch to them. Part of the extraction from chaos is that your players understand what's unfolding faster than the opposition does and can adapt to it on the fly. That's great when your holding midfielder is versed in centreback, fullback and sweeper play and can drop into any of those positions on a whim and play a pseudo role until everything is back in order. Not so much if your guys only know the confines of the role they are trained in. There's order to the chaos along those lines because your players aren't unsettled despite not being in their nominal positions for a period of time. You can't implement that with players who have no grasp of what it's like to play roles that aren't theirs until it's no longer required of them.

I apologise, but I can't really make sense of your post(s) in terms of what it is you want to ask or state. You also seem to think I'm a fan of De Zerbi or want him here. I've made no suggestion toward that, just highlighted he was one of those coaches who isn't afraid of making mistakes or being introspective enough to take a look at what's not working and adjust it accordingly.

No no I didn't expect anything. I'm just glad we can exchange views and even in disagreement we can be civil. In general I think we do think alike. You write excellent analytic in-depth pieces.

The funny thing is currently I haven''t watched Dutch eredivisie at all. It's too slow even if a lot of them play the Dutch 4-3-3. I only started noticing Ten Hag when Ajax did so well in the Champions League against really big teams like Real Madrid. He himself says at United he plays different, all started more from Ole's right idea to counter and inject some high turnover style. How that clicked instantly with Rashford was just amazing to see. (Also so sad to see it go completly this season. For a guy at his wages it is unacceptable and I actually question why ETH okayed a 375k a week bump for him.)

Whether it is enough, I don't know. Some of the critics have more than one point. The chaos is unsustainable. But he impresses me a lot with being so level headed, positive without going the Rodgers way. Again, for me the main difference is the fighting spirit. Never say die. Arteta's growing pains had Arsenal sunk many times but in all of Ten Hag's time ive rarely seen United just crumble and end with 3 or 4 goals difference defeat.

Last note: there is another Dutch coach bound to end up in the premier league. Spurs asked but he said no, for now. His name is Arne Slot of Feyenoord.

Okay another last note on Dutch system: if one guy supposedly plays the Dutch system to new ways, it must be Bosz at PSV. The quality of his players in general is so low but he is like 17 points ahead of feyenoord in an unprecedented run. Ten Hag play looks very calm vs PSV chaos theory. I wonder if Bosz will get a new chance a big club in the future. A complete football crazed, Bielsa like dedicated pro. Wonderfull man.

 

[RatPack]

I realise this is a fans forum, but some of this discourse is borderline madness.

For me it's actually simple: do I believe a different (available) manager with the same issues ETH has, this same squad of players, could be doing better than where we are? Yes, I do. I think an incredibly pragmatic, negative manager could organise us well, get a bank of 5 in front of a deep back 4 and rely on the outball to create chances for our fast strikers. We would probably have more points than we do this season, and broadly be in line with Spurs and Villa. Around 4th.

But that is as far as we'd ever get with that system. Ole had better players, at better points in their career and couldn't push it forward. Plus, all the same fans demanding a shiny new mangaer were the same ones complaining about that style in the first place.

ETH came in and is trying (and failing right now) to implement modern football at a club that hasn't modernised anything in 15 years. He's shipped over 20 members of the first team squad, and not come close to replacing those numbers. He's been hamstrung by 3 of his key signings basically not playing football this year. He doesn't have a LB to field, and similarly has gone weeks without a CF. He has played our first choice back 4 precisely once this season.

From all those that have spent time with him, he's smart, driven and passionate about Manchester United. He has coaching pedigree. It's not working right now - for sure - but for all the criticism of his decision to go donut, if not for a few borderline penalty decisions, this conversation would almost be moot.

So for those so desperate to get him out and bring in someone like De Zerbi - what on God's green Earth makes you think that the XI players a new manger would be able to field could progress our style?

Spot on

 

[pocco]

I realise this is a fans forum, but some of this discourse is borderline madness.

For me it's actually simple: do I believe a different (available) manager with the same issues ETH has, this same squad of players, could be doing better than where we are? Yes, I do. I think an incredibly pragmatic, negative manager could organise us well, get a bank of 5 in front of a deep back 4 and rely on the outball to create chances for our fast strikers. We would probably have more points than we do this season, and broadly be in line with Spurs and Villa. Around 4th.

But that is as far as we'd ever get with that system. Ole had better players, at better points in their career and couldn't push it forward. Plus, all the same fans demanding a shiny new mangaer were the same ones complaining about that style in the first place.

ETH came in and is trying (and failing right now) to implement modern football at a club that hasn't modernised anything in 15 years. He's shipped over 20 members of the first team squad, and not come close to replacing those numbers. He's been hamstrung by 3 of his key signings basically not playing football this year. He doesn't have a LB to field, and similarly has gone weeks without a CF. He has played our first choice back 4 precisely once this season.

From all those that have spent time with him, he's smart, driven and passionate about Manchester United. He has coaching pedigree. It's not working right now - for sure - but for all the criticism of his decision to go donut, if not for a few borderline penalty decisions, this conversation would almost be moot.

So for those so desperate to get him out and bring in someone like De Zerbi - what on God's green Earth makes you think that the XI players a new manger would be able to field could progress our style?

What is 'modern football'? Is it this? I saw clubs in the 90's using some of these priciples, with quick 'transitions' (counters), long balls over a high line etc. Hell he's even partial to a big target man (Haller, Weghorst, Hojlund, McTominay). In my view, modern football has largely been centred around control of a game, through possession mainly.

I don't think what he's trying to do is very revolutionary at all.

 

[TrebleChamp99]

I realise this is a fans forum, but some of this discourse is borderline madness.

For me it's actually simple: do I believe a different (available) manager with the same issues ETH has, this same squad of players, could be doing better than where we are? Yes, I do. I think an incredibly pragmatic, negative manager could organise us well, get a bank of 5 in front of a deep back 4 and rely on the outball to create chances for our fast strikers. We would probably have more points than we do this season, and broadly be in line with Spurs and Villa. Around 4th.

But that is as far as we'd ever get with that system. Ole had better players, at better points in their career and couldn't push it forward. Plus, all the same fans demanding a shiny new mangaer were the same ones complaining about that style in the first place.

ETH came in and is trying (and failing right now) to implement modern football at a club that hasn't modernised anything in 15 years. He's shipped over 20 members of the first team squad, and not come close to replacing those numbers. He's been hamstrung by 3 of his key signings basically not playing football this year. He doesn't have a LB to field, and similarly has gone weeks without a CF. He has played our first choice back 4 precisely once this season.

From all those that have spent time with him, he's smart, driven and passionate about Manchester United. He has coaching pedigree. It's not working right now - for sure - but for all the criticism of his decision to go donut, if not for a few borderline penalty decisions, this conversation would almost be moot.

So for those so desperate to get him out and bring in someone like De Zerbi - what on God's green Earth makes you think that the XI players a new manger would be able to field could progress our style?

This is too simplistic.
The managers job especially at United is to instruct your coaches to focus on a particular area of play and adapt that plan based on the players and philosophy you intend to impose that will ultimately achieve success.

As bas as we have been in the past 10 years we still have a cohort of coaches and players that are able to coach a football team in patterns of play, phases of play, shape and technique on a one - to - one level. As in notice that certain players are struggling in a system, speak to them, understand the issues and have a plan or ability to get the best out of them.

None of the players we have are unable to be coached on that level, we have enough quality in the squad that if 5 players are out injured someone can fill in.

If you have a player like Bruno for instance who is playing Hollywood balls for United and is playing composed and integral for Portugal then what is the issue, is he unable, is he being told to play and coached a certain way?

The acceptance and pointing straight to the players is baffling without looking at the coach, why isnt the message getting across if he doesn't want them playing that way? are the players absent minded and not listening as they think they know better or are they desperate for guidance and coaching in what to do in certain situations and a plan to adapt on the pitch?

Can other managers in the league spot our set up and changes easily and have better communication and transfer of plan from their coach or are do their players just try harder?

We are talking elite level sports, millions upon millions of pounds in the league up and down.

I strongly believe that ETH may have a fantastic style of play, he may be the best coach in the world, but he isn't the best coach for United, he is unable to transfer his plan to the players, he does not have an adaptable coaching technique that allows that plan to transfer to the players and he seemingly needs very specialised players to implement a style and structure.

Mangers like Klopp, Guardiola, Arteta have a philosophy they centre themselves around that that they can communicate to their team of coaches and players and even better can actively translate that to players actions on the pitch. If they cant get that ideal position they adapt and strive to reach it.

Multiple times this season we have been Lucky or the chaos of a game has gone our way. There has been no transference of a philosophy across the squad no matter who is available and that is clear.

That responsibility is the managers.

 

[Rista]

I realise this is a fans forum, but some of this discourse is borderline madness.

For me it's actually simple: do I believe a different (available) manager with the same issues ETH has, this same squad of players, could be doing better than where we are? Yes, I do. I think an incredibly pragmatic, negative manager could organise us well, get a bank of 5 in front of a deep back 4 and rely on the outball to create chances for our fast strikers. We would probably have more points than we do this season, and broadly be in line with Spurs and Villa. Around 4th.

But that is as far as we'd ever get with that system. Ole had better players, at better points in their career and couldn't push it forward. Plus, all the same fans demanding a shiny new mangaer were the same ones complaining about that style in the first place.

ETH came in and is trying (and failing right now) to implement modern football at a club that hasn't modernised anything in 15 years. He's shipped over 20 members of the first team squad, and not come close to replacing those numbers. He's been hamstrung by 3 of his key signings basically not playing football this year. He doesn't have a LB to field, and similarly has gone weeks without a CF. He has played our first choice back 4 precisely once this season.

From all those that have spent time with him, he's smart, driven and passionate about Manchester United. He has coaching pedigree. It's not working right now - for sure - but for all the criticism of his decision to go donut, if not for a few borderline penalty decisions, this conversation would almost be moot.

So for those so desperate to get him out and bring in someone like De Zerbi - what on God's green Earth makes you think that the XI players a new manger would be able to field could progress our style?

Except there is no indication of any of this happening and actually working out. You're effectively saying "yes, we could get a manager who would get us better results but ETH is building something special for the future". But it's really not based on anything substantial other than ETH being dutch, smart and driven. Even his own signings haven't been good, and some have been a disaster that have further set us back.

The point about a couple of penalties changing everything doesn't really work in our favour considering that by almost every metric we're very, very lucky to be where we are. 6th flatters us massively and variance has been very kind to us. In other words, if we were less lucky we'd be looking closer to bottom of the table than where we are right now.

 

[Insanity]

What is 'modern football'? Is it this? I saw clubs in the 90's using some of these priciples, with quick 'transitions' (counters), long balls over a high line etc. Hell he's even partial to a big target man (Haller, Weghorst, Hojlund, McTominay). In my view, modern football has largely been centred around control of a game, through possession mainly.

I don't think what he's trying to do is very revolutionary at all.

Correct. The idea that this idiotic and suicidal style of football is somehow "Modern", is flawed to begin with.

 

[redNATION]

Is this guy still here

Amazing how we’ve rewarded failure in the post Fergie era, from the executive positions right down to player level.

 

[Maticmaker]

ETH has had up to now (what our late Queen Elizabeth II once referred to in another context)... 'annus horribills' season 2023/24.

Starting with another embarrassing transfer period, followed by 'crackpot' pre-season tour, then the early loss of key players through injury mainly defenders meant that what progress had been made towards the end of last season, soon evaporated. Let's remember in ETH's his first season we won one cup reached the final of another and qualified for the CL.
All of that of course doesn't excuse the kind of performances we have seen, even the ones like Sunday, where whilst we stopped Liverpool in their tracks, with two 'magic' goals, nevertheless the performance overall was poor.

It's hard to tell if ETH has given up on this seasons plans and is now simply 'bailing out' as fast as he can to keep what is left of the season afloat, or if he is simply 'going where he's pushed' and trying to look and sound as if that is what he planned along. Either way he seems to be leaking the support from fans in many quarters.

Most fans (I think) would agree our biggest problem (I would argue even before SAF left) was what to do about replacing Michael Carrick and installing a 'match control unit' in our mid field capable of building a team around.... you could argue that Pep has done the opposite at City and built a team of players with 'mid-field nous' that can cover all of the pitch.
We have never solved this dilemma and this is what lies at the heart of our problems

It's also difficult to factor in all the off the pitch activity around ownership and future direction of travel for the club, including possibly a new ground; what if any difference has this had on performances... the question is we simply don't know.
However in my opinion unless and until Sir Jim gets his top team in place and is starting to 'crank the engine of change at OT,' then we should stick with ETH and support what he is trying to achieve.... but he needs to be very clear what that is and to lay down some markers for fans to assess the distance of travel.

 

[Giggsy13]

Unlike other seasons where the results were poor, the squad have not given up on ten Hag. Usually at this stage we get leaks of a toxic dressing room and division amongst the squad. Notice how all of that is gone despite the mixed results. IMO, that will be one of the reasons that INEOS will give him another season to sort it out.

 

[Rista]

Has anyone got unquestionable faith in him?

I haven’t seen anyone with that view.

I believe there are fans who are willing to be a bit more patient and can see (if you squint) the makings of some good football on the horizon. But I don’t think anyone is blind to the issues we have and Ten Hag’s responsibility to address them.

Yes, I was mainly refering to the comment section on a video that was posted on here. There's a world of a difference between being a bit more patient and that. But we know we had that problem with previous managers too. People being too attached to the idea of finding another SAF and us "not being like other clubs", treating sacking of a manager as the worst thing that could happen.

 

[RedStarUnited]

That, and his insistence that the shot count is not worrying because we’re only conceding low-quality shots. Not only does conceding a lot of shots, regardless of the quality, increase the risk of an unlucky deflection like Chelsea’s winner the other day; anyone who watches our games knows we’re conceding at least a handful of big chances every single game. The fact that we haven’t conceded much more isn’t down to ETH’s calculated risk, it’s a miracle. I don’t get how he gets fans and journalists like Carl Anka to buy into it.

I honestly think that 4-1 Real Madrid away win he had, has destroyed him in the long run. The stats for that game were..

Madrid		Ajax
58	Possession	42
20	Shots	16
8	Shots on Target	8

After the game, he said " This was pretty close to perfection". Look at the shots conceded here, this is not perfection. The result was amazing but he should have been worried about the shots conceded. In the next round, they play Spurs, and manage to find themselves 3-0 up in the second half of the second leg and playing home. They concede 3 goals in 45 minutes and lose on away difference. Stats for that game?

Ajax		Spurs
40	Possession	60
16	Shots	24
4	Shots on Target	7

His plan allows for too many chances for the opposition. He should have learned from the Madrid match and tightened up his defence for the second half of the second leg,

5 years later and he still hasn't learned, Its a shame.

 

[Longshanks]

I agree with this. Well said. One note from myself: I do believe LvG has lost some touch, even if he still has a great eye for what is needed. But where he failed miserably at United, aside for being too rigid personality and some players just didn't believe in him: during games Van Gaal always stayed seated. He rarely coached from the sideline. His explanation was that the players themselves have to correct one another. This is of course a rather naive and outdated point of view. The modern coach - wich Ten Hag clearly is - does a lot of work during the game. It also makes you more visible to the fans.



No no I didn't expect anything. I'm just glad we can exchange views and even in disagreement we can be civil. In general I think we do think alike. You write excellent analytic in-depth pieces.

The funny thing is currently I haven''t watched Dutch eredivisie at all. It's too slow even if a lot of them play the Dutch 4-3-3. I only started noticing Ten Hag when Ajax did so well in the Champions League against really big teams like Real Madrid. He himself says at United he plays different, all started more from Ole's right idea to counter and inject some high turnover style. How that clicked instantly with Rashford was just amazing to see. (Also so sad to see it go completly this season. For a guy at his wages it is unacceptable and I actually question why ETH okayed a 375k a week bump for him.)

Whether it is enough, I don't know. Some of the critics have more than one point. The chaos is unsustainable. But he impresses me a lot with being so level headed, positive without going the Rodgers way. Again, for me the main difference is the fighting spirit. Never say die. Arteta's growing pains had Arsenal sunk many times but in all of Ten Hag's time ive rarely seen United just crumble and end with 3 or 4 goals difference defeat.

Last note: there is another Dutch coach bound to end up in the premier league. Spurs asked but he said no, for now. His name is Arne Slot of Feyenoord.

Okay another last note on Dutch system: if one guy supposedly plays the Dutch system to new ways, it must be Bosz at PSV. The quality of his players in general is so low but he is like 17 points ahead of feyenoord in an unprecedented run. Ten Hag play looks very calm vs PSV chaos theory. I wonder if Bosz will get a new chance a big club in the future. A complete football crazed, Bielsa like dedicated pro. Wonderfull man.

I think the Rashford issue is more to do with bringing Hojlund than anything else. Rashford is at his best making out to in runs behind/along the defensive line. The problem is Hojlund also like to spin in behind onto his left foot, straight into the space Rashford wants to work in.

I think ETH has asked Rashford to be more of a wide creater for Hojlund this season. Asking him to sacrifice himself a little for Hojlund and I'm not sure it's worked. I'm also not sure Hojlund currently is worth sacrificing Rashford for in all honesty I think he has struggled to adapt at times this season. Which is very much to be expected.

 

[NLunited]

I honestly think that 4-1 Real Madrid away win he had, has destroyed him in the long run. The stats for that game were..

Madrid		Ajax
58	Possession	42
20	Shots	16
8	Shots on Target	8

After the game, he said " This was pretty close to perfection". Look at the shots conceded here, this is not perfection. The result was amazing but he should have been worried about the shots conceded. In the next round, they play Spurs, and manage to find themselves 3-0 up in the second half of the second leg and playing home. They concede 3 goals in 45 minutes and lose on away difference. Stats for that game?

Ajax		Spurs
40	Possession	60
16	Shots	24
4	Shots on Target	7

His plan allows for too many chances for the opposition. He should have learned from the Madrid match and tightened up his defence for the second half of the second leg,

5 years later and he still hasn't learned, Its a shame.

These stats don‘t factor in the quality of chances. I watched both games; we were the better team in both games. Except for the last 30 minutes against Spurs where Ajax was completely spent. That‘s the reason for the collapse. Spurs went for it and killed us.

This narrative is the same bs as we heard after the 4-3 win against Pool. ‚They had so many chances they should have won‘. No, they didn‘t: we limited them to low quality shots in that period. Never mind that we had a higher xG as well.

I have no problem allowing 20 shots out of the box against a good team if we create multiple ‚100%‘ chances ourselves.

We will have to be more dominant against lesser teams in the PL to bring those shot numbers down. Get the high press right and the rest defense needs to be more aggressive. And most importantly, we need to improve on the ball.

At Ajax, we never looked as disjointed as we do here; we were better in possession and were better at getting the ball back after a turnover.

No one is saying here there aren‘t any issues with the performances: those shot numbers are actually too high and we are regularly making dumb defending errors. Turnovers are our biggest issue.

But you have to ask yourself whether you are willing to play a more risky style which is entertaining. I‘m in.

So we had one good year with Ten Hag and one poor one (incomplete squad, riddled with injuries). The club is in the process of getting sorted. Now we have to decide whether we stick with it or start over.

If it‘s Southgate next year I might skip watching our games.

 

[Lash]

So, he couldn't do it with his hand-picked players but will be able to do it with the players that the new structure going to pick for him?

Will he be the only one who'll get a chance in his new structure or will we need to do justice to our other managers too?

How will the cycle go: ETH - Ole - VG - Jose - Moyes or will we start from Moyes after ETH and go Moyes - Jose - VG - Ole?

I don't think you read my full post or may be I wasn't able to explain my point clearly. The cycle we need to break is hiring these duds and giving them a carte blanche to recruit the players they want to implement their "vision". I don't think the structure failed Ole because it didn't get him the correct players, I think the structure failed in giving Ole the full time job. If you get my point.

No structure is perfect, if there was a perfect structure then managers won't ever be fired but only retire. My expectations from the structure is a little different from everyone else'. I want it to decide on a vision for this club, not every incoming manager. What we have done in the last XI years is to let every new manager come in with their "vision" and then recruit players they wanted to implement that vision. Which has led us to a medley of players who are part of different visions of different managers. I'll give you an example, Licha is an excellent footballer, probably the best player ETH has bought in the last two years. He has an excellent vision and reading of the game. He is a warrior. His passing is wonderful and he is a good defender. However, due to lack of height and physicality, I bet you that eight out of ten managers won't use him in central defense. The same way Smalling and Blind, which was a very good partnership, was broken when Jose came in for VG.

Once the structure decides a vision for the club, then it needs to recruit managers and players to execute that vision. Getting every manager a whole new sixteen is not a sustainable way to run a football club. The structure should be built in such a way that continuity can be maintained even in case a manager doesn't work out and needs to be replaced.

Coming back to Ten Hag, I see no point in giving him another season as I don't think it is going to change anything. His problem hasn't been our lack of recruitment due to our current structure as he has got majority of the players he wanted in the last 2 years. The issue has been he has too many flaws to be a manager at this club

- He is not able to identify players he needs for a physical league like this one.
- He does not believe in rotation. He ran the players into the ground last season.
- He has no style of play and makes it up as he goes. Even with injuries we should have seen improvements in our pressing, passing, set-pieces, set-piece defending etc.
- Last season the excuse was that he wasn't getting time on the training field with games coming thick and fast. Now we play one game a week most weeks and we see the same chaotic style of play.
- He doesn't seem to have the charisma to lead such a big club.

When I look at him and his body of work here, it doesn't scream a man who is going to make us challenge for big trophies again. Does it to you? If no, then what is the point of giving him another season?

They're not his hand picked players though - Antony is and he deserves massive criticism for that, but Martinez hasn't been available enough, Neither Mount and Hojlund wasn't meant to be the only forward. His hand picked players would have included De Jong, so a proper structure wouldn't have given him Casemiro as an alternative or let him chase De Jong for so long.

With the new structure, they should be clearer on expectations than "get them back to the United way", which has been the brief for pretty much everyone that's been hired bar Moyes.

I do get your point, I think it's both not getting the right players, but that's because they let the wrong people chose what was necessary. So to me that doesn't mean change the manager (who was talented prior to coming to us), it means moving the power to the footballing structure away from the manager and they then become a head coach. Then the head coach can be very interchangeable without much issue.

I'm not asking for perfection though, they just need to do what you say in your next paragraph, but he doesn't need a whole new sixteen and neither would a new manager. The vision of the club is tightly coupled to the manager, they need to pick the manager that matches the vision, I don't think we're disagreeing on that point at all. Licha may have flaws, but he has strengths that enable us to play far better as a team. Maybe he doesn't end up being first choice, but he is an absolutely fantastic player to have in the squad and not detrimental in anyway to a new manager if he was in their squad but didn't quite fit their style.

I actually think it's more of a case of making sure the whole operation works well. If you have a new coaching staff, manager, CEO, DOF, Technical director and head of recruitment starting if something is going awry, how do you pin point where it's going wrong? Similarly, why are we just immediately attributing any success to the new manager? It's only one season and that's if he makes it that far, then at least you've understood properly the issues. There is still the possibility the new structure makes a tonne of mistakes in the first instance of working together, so actually it's better they do it with a manager we can easily move on.

So point one and two should be resolved by a better recruitment strategy. He has no striker to rotate, he has no defence to rotate. The last 3 points are valid criticisms, but I believe there are some extenuating circumstances and I think the charisma point is probably something I share.

For the reasons I stated above. In all the chaos, he's managed to get us to cup finals and still will probably do it again this year. I think one last roll of the dice is hardly going make an impact and the alternative of a new manager just adds more complexity than is needed right now as we make massive changes.

Edit: final point I remembered. Ten Hag had successful recruitment and a great team under a good structure in VDS and Overmars, why not see him in that structure again before making a decision? There isn't an obvious option to replace him with anyway.

 

[Berbaclass]

These stats don‘t factor in the quality of chances. I watched both games; we were the better team in both games. Except for the last 30 minutes against Spurs where Ajax was completely spent. That‘s the reason for the collapse. Spurs went for it and killed us.

This narrative is the same bs as we heard after the 4-3 win against Pool. ‚They had so many chances they should have won‘. No, they didn‘t: we limited them to low quality shots in that period. Never mind that we had a higher xG as well.

I have no problem allowing 20 shots out of the box against a good team if we create multiple ‚100%‘ chances ourselves.

We will have to be more dominant against lesser teams in the PL to bring those shot numbers down. Get the high press right and the rest defense needs to be more aggressive. And most importantly, we need to improve on the ball.

At Ajax, we never looked as disjointed as we do here; we were better in possession and were better at getting the ball back after a turnover.

No one is saying here there aren‘t any issues with the performances: those shot numbers are actually too high and we are regularly making dumb defending errors. Turnovers are our biggest issue.

But you have to ask yourself whether you are willing to play a more risky style which is entertaining. I‘m in.

So we had one good year with Ten Hag and one poor one (incomplete squad, riddled with injuries). The club is in the process of getting sorted. Now we have to decide whether we stick with it or start over.

If it‘s Southgate next year I might skip watching our games.

Agree

 

[Insanity]

They're not his hand picked players though - Antony is and he deserves massive criticism for that, but Martinez hasn't been available enough, Neither Mount and Hojlund wasn't meant to be the only forward. His hand picked players would have included De Jong, so a proper structure wouldn't have given him Casemiro as an alternative or let him chase De Jong for so long.

Anthony, Martinez, Onana, Amrabat, Mount, Malacia, Hojlund....

If everything he was supposed to do with us depended on getting DeJong, then that in itself shows he wasn't the right man for the job.

He had a choice of taking Rangnick's input on our squad and using his vast scouting knowledge to help him coming in. Instead he chose to ignore him completely and went to recruit the players he had worked with before. That's on him, not on any structure. The structure's fault was catering to him and paying exorbitant fees and wages for some utterly mediocre players he picked.

With the new structure, they should be clearer on expectations than "get them back to the United way", which has been the brief for pretty much everyone that's been hired bar Moyes.

So, he'll have to abandon his vision to buy into the United way, no?

I do get your point, I think it's both not getting the right players, but that's because they let the wrong people chose what was necessary. So to me that doesn't mean change the manager (who was talented prior to coming to us), it means moving the power to the footballing structure away from the manager and they then become a head coach. Then the head coach can be very interchangeable without much issue.

Again I don't get the point in keeping him. As I mentioned in my earlier post, he has come up short on many criteria. How is that going to change with the new structure? Why don't get a manager who aligns with the vision of this club instead of forcing ETH to buy into that vision?

I'm not asking for perfection though, they just need to do what you say in your next paragraph, but he doesn't need a whole new sixteen and neither would a new manager. The vision of the club is tightly coupled to the manager, they need to pick the manager that matches the vision, I don't think we're disagreeing on that point at all. Licha may have flaws, but he has strengths that enable us to play far better as a team. Maybe he doesn't end up being first choice, but he is an absolutely fantastic player to have in the squad and not detrimental in anyway to a new manager if he was in their squad but didn't quite fit their style.

I actually think it's more of a case of making sure the whole operation works well. If you have a new coaching staff, manager, CEO, DOF, Technical director and head of recruitment starting if something is going awry, how do you pin point where it's going wrong? Similarly, why are we just immediately attributing any success to the new manager? It's only one season and that's if he makes it that far, then at least you've understood properly the issues. There is still the possibility the new structure makes a tonne of mistakes in the first instance of working together, so actually it's better they do it with a manager we can easily move on.

So point one and two should be resolved by a better recruitment strategy. He has no striker to rotate, he has no defence to rotate. The last 3 points are valid criticisms, but I believe there are some extenuating circumstances and I think the charisma point is probably something I share.

For the reasons I stated above. In all the chaos, he's managed to get us to cup finals and still will probably do it again this year. I think one last roll of the dice is hardly going make an impact and the alternative of a new manager just adds more complexity than is needed right now as we make massive changes.

Edit: final point I remembered. Ten Hag had successful recruitment and a great team under a good structure in VDS and Overmars, why not see him in that structure again before making a decision? There isn't an obvious option to replace him with anyway.

So did, DeBoer or other Ajax managers before him. We have to remember that he excelled in a league where Ajax are utterly dominant both financially and in terms of their structure. They are expected to win the league most seasons. And outside the Eredivise, all he has to show for on his resume is one Champions league run to the semi-finals where they lost to Pochettino managed Spurs.

We have managed cup runs with all our managers. Even Ole took us to a couple of finals. I don't think that's a big deal when you have one of the most expensively assembled squad in world football with the highest wage bill.

The problem is that even when we did reasonably well last season result wise, there wasn't a discernible style of play that ETH implemented. We were scraping through games after the league cup final (Even the league cup final wasn't the most pleasing on the eye). And have continued in the same vein since then. We can't score goals and we can't defend very well. We give up a high number of shots every game. That isn't just because of injuries to a couple of our players. Someone showed the stats in another thread of the quarter finals and the semi-finals of Ajax's CL run under ETH and in those games two his team gave up a very high number of shots to both their opponents.

Some of our highest defeats under ETH have come with Martinez, Varane, Casemiro and Shaw in the team.

IMO, after two seasons it's pretty clear what he brings to the table. Is that good enough? I don't think it is.

 

[Berbaclass]

Murtough was a big backer of ETH so will be interesting now.

 

[Berbaclass]

From the article

Yet the biggest and most consequential decision of all could regard the manager. Ten Hag is currently working with INEOS across plans for next season and wants to stay at United and work under the new set-up, but his position remains under scrutiny amid wildly inconsistent results.

Ten Hag was the overwhelming choice to become United manager following a process led and executed by Murtough. Yet another managerial search could end up top of the to-do list for Murtough’s successor.

 

[UnitedSofa]

Murtough was a big backer of ETH so will be interesting now.

So was the majority of the fanbase! Can't pin that on Murtough, EtH was widely sought after.

 

[Oranges038]

I'm Dutch and a big Van Gaal school fan back in the day. I don't think Fortitude has a point for the arguments stated above. Plenty of evidence and facts prove Ten Hag is anything but ''wooden', does a lot of tinkering but in the meantime finally gives United a new, regular starting tactic in 4-2-3-1. And perhaps this is why we are still P6 after so many injuries: the subs don't have to learn new things. Positioning and tailor made instructions to say Maguire, Mctominay, its obvious for anyone to see.

Also, Pep Leijnders has been backbone of Klopp for years. Rene Meulensteen for SAF. Pep been schooled by lots of Dutch trainers. Arteta did schooling in The Netherlands. Somehow 'the Dutch system'' is well permeated through the PL and has been for years.

Ten Hag is a modern exponent but actually his style is not 'Dutch' at all. He plays way different. On top of that whatever the Dutch system was, its old and obsolete. And for all the Cruyff love, he, too, would just park the bus if it would mean a win.

I remain, what Ten Hag wants to play, requires players he doesn't have for the full. It is also quite unique. As a lot of top managers in the PL make it such a rich ground for tactical geniuses and show casing. I have full faith in him for the moment.

What would make you stop having that you might ask? If he has a 3 or more bad game run of losses. If after a succesfull summer transfers, next season sees no improvement and we hover P7. But I had that stance last year too, when I expected the Glazers to sell before the summer and give Ten Hag the means for a big overhaul.
Also, maybe even more important: I like watching Ten Hags united. Its full of fight, feisty and you never know how and if they come back but that they can fight back has been proved many times. I love it. I'm still buzzing over that LFC win.

That's not a new tactic, it's been that way for a long long time and it's a rotten formation that should be binned, because it stifles the attacking side of a team. Arsenal went downhill under Wenger using that formation because they didn't have enough up front to convert chances.

On the second bolded, I 100% agree, there just isn't enough technical ability or athleticism is this squad to play the way he wants. I'd also add in brains there too. Does he deserve more time to address that? I don't know if the club see it that he does.

Utd are a club in transition and finishing 3 and 6 isn't really that bad when you consider where Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal have finished at times. Utd fans just can't accept it that most of these players aren't really any better than 6th place. Bring a new guy in and you're starting a 3 year process over again and it will get worse again before it gets better.

Personally, I think you stick at it and let the system weed out the weaknesses, I believe this approach is a much more viable option for long term stability and success.

 

[soapythecat]

Murtough was a big backer of ETH so will be interesting now.

Most definitely. It would suggest the Wilcox and/or Ashworth is close to being appointed perhaps. The decision to give him a new contract (which they have to do, surely, if he is still head coach next season) must follow swiftly if they are to keep him in place. No new contract must indicate he will be sacked at the end of the season.