Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[CasaStreets]

I think this is the main thing. Why do some people actually want to keep him?

Forget if you think its fair or not. As a club with a new co-owner, what does Ten Haag bring that would make us keep him?

First of all, the things that were good about him when he was at Ajax, when we recruited him, and during his first season didn't suddenly disappear just because you forgot about them.

But I understand your question and I'll go for it. Despite my more pro-EtH arguments in the two threads, I'm actually on the fence about EtH and voted to get rid of him in the poll. But, playing Devil's Advocate, here are 3 reasons I'm on the fence and think keeping him may be smart:

(1) We are completely overhauling the club structure, overhauling recruitment, and (hopefully) making significant squad change this summer. Those are three big moving pieces. While recruitment decision-making authority will (and should) move away from EtH, having a manager who has actually seen these players' strengths and weaknesses in the PL is an important input. In the worst-case scenario, a new manager coming in might ask to have a full season with our existing players.

(2) Regardless of the fact that the pressing tactics have been less effective this season, the team is definitely learning the style of play. We are currently 5th in Opp 3rd tackles, but just have a much lower tackle success rate in our press than the top pressing teams (Pool, Arsenal, Spurs). I hate to individualize this, but much of that is down to Rashford's very poor pressing, which gets even worse when Hojlund is out and Rashford has to lead the press. And the fact our press is leaving a gap between midfield and defense is largely a recruitment problem - we need a faster/more athletic CB and CDM to compress the space. If Casemiro were playing at last season's level and Martinez were fit, I'm not even sure this would be an issue.

(3) His performance last season was at least decent - and even quite good when our starting midfield 3 were available. We can all acknowledge our injuries this season have been exceptional and impacted several of our most influential players. We also acknowledge the drop in quality from our first 11 to our bench is significantly larger than most of our top 4 rivals. So why can't we acknowledge that injuries are a valid reason for him to underperform this season vs last?

I'm posting this everywhere I can but I keep coming back to my belief that 80-90% of our problems are because of the players and maybe 10-20% because of the manager. I think EtH is just the most convenient target because it's much harder to accept that 9 of our starting 11 aren't the right players to play elite football and it's much more convenient to believe that changing just 1 person (manager) is the difference. It's not.

 

[pocco]

Rooney would have been gone in the summer of 2013 had Fergie not been retiring, but not because he was on his last legs.

Valencia was a mainstay in the team for another five seasons though.

Valencia was complaining about lack of opportunities under Moyes. He was largely underwhelming but that season and the season before - we even took the no7 shirt off him as we felt it was weighing him down. Whether you can put this down to Moyes' impact or not, but I don't think he ever reached the levels he had previously.

 

[Alex99]

Valencia was complaining about lack of opportunities under Moyes. He was largely underwhelming but that season and the season before - we even took the no7 shirt off him as we felt it was weighing him down. Whether you can put this down to Moyes' impact or not, but I don't think he ever reached the levels he had previously.

Didn't he request not to have the 7? In the same way Shaw asked to not be 3 a couple of years later?

Also, what's your source on "complaining about lack of opportunities under Moyes"?

His stats were 24 league starts, 6 sub appearances in Fergie's final season, and 20 starts, 9 sub appearances in the Moyes season. It's one overall appearance lower, and only a handful of starts, so hardly a significant drop, and in fact, in Fergie's final season he only made four appearances in the Champions League (two starts, two off the bench), but made 10 under Moyes (nine of which were starts).

 

[Fergies Gum]

Suspect we are getting an announcement in the next few days that Ten Hag is leaving at the end of the season.

 

[pocco]

First of all, the things that were good about him when he was at Ajax, when we recruited him, and during his first season didn't suddenly disappear just because you forgot about them.

But I understand your question and I'll go for it. Despite my more pro-EtH arguments in the two threads, I'm actually on the fence about EtH and voted to get rid of him in the poll. But, playing Devil's Advocate, here are 3 reasons I'm on the fence and think keeping him may be smart:

(1) We are completely overhauling the club structure, overhauling recruitment, and (hopefully) making significant squad change this summer. Those are three big moving pieces. While recruitment decision-making authority will (and should) move away from EtH, having a manager who has actually seen these players' strengths and weaknesses in the PL is an important input. In the worst-case scenario, a new manager coming in might ask to have a full season with our existing players.

(2) Regardless of the fact that the pressing tactics have been less effective this season, the team is definitely learning the style of play. We are currently 5th in Opp 3rd tackles, but just have a much lower tackle success rate in our press than the top pressing teams (Pool, Arsenal, Spurs). I hate to individualize this, but much of that is down to Rashford's very poor pressing, which gets even worse when Hojlund is out and Rashford has to lead the press. And the fact our press is leaving a gap between midfield and defense is largely a recruitment problem - we need a faster/more athletic CB and CDM to compress the space. If Casemiro were playing at last season's level and Martinez were fit, I'm not even sure this would be an issue.

(3) His performance last season was at least decent - and even quite good when our starting midfield 3 were available. We can all acknowledge our injuries this season have been exceptional and impacted several of our most influential players. We also acknowledge the drop in quality from our first 11 to our bench is significantly larger than most of our top 4 rivals. So why can't we acknowledge that injuries are a valid reason for him to underperform this season vs last?

I'm posting this everywhere I can but I keep coming back to my belief that 80-90% of our problems are because of the players and maybe 10-20% because of the manager. I think EtH is just the most convenient target because it's much harder to accept that 9 of our starting 11 aren't the right players to play elite football and it's much more convenient to believe that changing just 1 person (manager) is the difference. It's not.

Forget playing elite football, nobody is even hoping for that at this stage. Good football would be a start, or signs of a clear plan that makes us difficult to beat and gets us scoring goals. You can't convince me it's simply not possible with these players. Onana, Dalot, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo, Eriksen, Mount, Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho, Hojlund... there's a lot of talent in this team. Every manager not named Pep or Klopp would kill to have some of the players we have.

One of my first questions to the new manager would be what they think they could do better with our current squad, because I think plenty of managers will be watching us and thinking they could do better.

 

[TsuWave]

It's worth pointing out that since the League Cup win we've played a total of 41 PL Games. We've won 22, drawn 4 and lost 15. We've scored 54 goals in those 41 games and conceded 54. It's been over a year now since the League Cup final. We've had a year of crap football. That's enough time to pass for me to know that things aren't suddenly going to improve, i'm sure some of you will argue that a 54% win rate is pretty decent and yet we've also lost 37% of those games.

Do you know how many of those 22 League wins we've won by more than a 1 goal margin? 6 games (listed below):

Date	Leg	Opponent (Pos in PL.)	Score
Sat Apr 8, 2023	H	Everton (16.)	2:0
Sun Apr 16, 2023	A	Nottm Forest (18.)	0:2
Sat May 13, 2023	H	Wolves (13.)	2:0
Thu May 25, 2023	H	Chelsea (11.)	4:1
Sun Nov 26, 2023	A	Everton (19.)	0:3
Sun Feb 4, 2024	H	West Ham (6.)	3:0

How many have we lost by more than a 1 goal margin? 9 games (listed below):

Date	Leg	Opponent (Pos in PL).	Score
Sun Mar 5, 2023	A	Liverpool (7.)	7:0
Sun Apr 2, 2023	A	Newcastle (3.)	2:0
Sat Aug 19, 2023	A	Tottenham (8.)	2:0
Sun Sep 3, 2023	A	Arsenal (5.)	3:1
Sat Sep 16, 2023	H	Brighton (6.)	1:3
Sun Oct 29, 2023	H	Man City (2.)	0:3
Sat Dec 9, 2023	H	Bournemouth (15.)	0:3
Sat Dec 23, 2023	A	West Ham (8.)	2:0
Sun Mar 3, 2024	A	Man City (2.)	3:1

So in a years worth of football consisting of 41 league games, we've only managed to win convincingly (by a 2 goal or more margin) in 15% of our games. This is a results business, our form is diabolical and has been for a long, long time now.

EDIT:

Before anyone claims we've done better in the cups. We've managed almost identical win/loss ratios. Won 10 in 19 (53% win rate) and lost 7 in 19 (37% loss rate).

"Something, something... Arsenal...something something Arteta"

 

[jem]

@jem name a better one that was available for us to sign that window?

Better than Antony? Gakpo for a start - not a huge fan but I’m sure we could’ve had him for that kind of money. I’m sure there are more.

 

[pocco]

Didn't he request not to have the 7? In the same way Shaw asked to not be 3 a couple of years later?

Also, what's your source on "complaining about lack of opportunities under Moyes"?

His stats were 24 league starts, 6 sub appearances in Fergie's final season, and 20 starts, 9 sub appearances in the Moyes season. It's one overall appearance lower, and only a handful of starts, so hardly a significant drop, and in fact, in Fergie's final season he only made four appearances in the Champions League (two starts, two off the bench), but made 10 under Moyes (nine of which were starts).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro....im-a-chance-at-manchester-united-4697709/amp/

Ignore the source, the quotes are in there. Just reading articles that discuss his form that season as my memory is a bit foggy, and they talk about how he'd been disappointing both that season and the previous.

In his prime he was a beast obviously, but he wasn't the same after and the RB role probably suited him more when he was eventually converted and enjoyed a bit of a renaissance there.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Better than Antony? Gakpo for a start - not a huge fan but I’m sure we could’ve had him for that kind of money. I’m sure there are more.

I like Gakpo but he’s not a left footed RW which is what we were after.

 

[jem]

If Antony really was the only one available then we play Sancho, Elanga or Pellistri, simple. We don't pay a fortune to downgrade.

Exactly. And honestly, as much as this might disappoint posters like Benito, it’s not really incumbent on fans to come up with a list of names - paid professionals need to do their jobs and do them well.

 

[jem]

I like Gakpo but he’s not a left footed RW which is what we were after.

Well if ETH held such an evangelical view on the need for a left-footer, particular one as one-footed and predictable as Antony, then that in itself is a scathing indictment on his judgement.

 

[TsuWave]

A lot of are scarred by it, I personally try to avoid thinking about it. The hope is that if I push it back in my memories it would feel like it never happened

Crazy that you posted that yesterday, because today the premier league twitter page is celebrating the one year anniversary of that day

Spoiler

 

[Cerberus]

Does anyone understand why he abandoned his own philosophy to play a more direct one as he suggest? Every other manager before him have tried to play there own philosophy. Surely we hired him to play the way he did at Ajax? Doesn’t matter if he has the players to play that way or not. You should at least stick to your philosophy and slowly bring in players to play that way. Also train current players to play that way. Took pep a couple of seasons to get rid of players and sign players but I’m sure he still tried to play his way no matter who he had…

My guess is simply fear. I'm certain he was shaken by the back-to-back defeats at the beginning of his first season and probably felt that he completely underestimated the pace and physicality of the Prem. I think he felt that he needed to get as practical as possible or he'd lose his job quickly and damage his reputation, which is why he signed off on Casemiro despite being ill-suited to his philosophy or the club's long-term needs and why he insisted strongly on Antony despite probably knowing the financial implications. It's well-agreed that those two were panic-buys from Arnold & Murtough but I think Ten Hag was panicking as well, he likely was focused on surviving his first season instead of worrying about how much he'd have to spend the next summer.

 

[CasaStreets]

Forget playing elite football, nobody is even hoping for that at this stage. Good football would be a start, or signs of a clear plan that makes us difficult to beat and gets us scoring goals. You can't convince me it's simply not possible with these players. Onana, Dalot, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo, Eriksen, Mount, Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho, Hojlund... there's a lot of talent in this team. Every manager not named Pep or Klopp would kill to have some of the players we have.

OK, very helpful post. I'm now certain that the bolded part is where we differ most.

I hold a very dim view of some of these players' abilities and think their ceiling is much lower than you do. I love our youngsters but, if they do everything right in their development, they are still maybe ~2 years away from consistently running difficult games. Our starting back 5 is strong. But I genuinely don't believe that's a team capable of consistently contesting for anything higher than 4th. And it gets even worse when you factor in the drop in quality when we have to go to our bench.

Appreciate the good back/forth here.

 

[#07]

What I often find strange is how like clock work our fans in droves turn on a manager every 2 years and label them incompetent, stless frauds, completely certain "the next" manager will miraculously improve the results and consistency of the players on the books. It's never remembered that each change of footballing directiin has NEVER been accompanied with a proper player clesd out to suit the new direction to install a new identity.

Instead each manager going in a new direction merely inherits a majority of players from a different footballing ethos, incredible expected to shoe horn them into their preffered identity. That coupled with a brief of "improving the form of previous regimes" often leads to a first season or two of papering over the cracks. Then once the boss settled in the job tries to fully bed in his true ideals. He finds himself hampered in recruitment and replacement of unsuitable personnel and trying to fully implent a footballig identity to a group ill suited.

Going one of two ways:
either the squad gets caught out unable go implement a new style and performances plummet
or
the new boss attempts to compromise his ideals, resulting in Frankenstein system the manager isn't an expert at implementing, with a schism developed between the players and the coach as both sides become disillusioned with a job neither can fully master.

Meanwhile for the fans, they are killed by the false dawn of old again. They see player they imagine better than then truly failing to do the basics in a system that doesnt quite suit most of them. But lo & behold they are beguiled by hope again and start baying for a new messiah to take them to the orknjsed land of better football.

its completly baffling the vast majority CAN'T accept the simple truth. All the managers recruited since SAF can't ALL be incompetent. With the one common factor running through each failed manager era being a failed recruitment and football direction department.

Some times folks straight up forget footballing success begins and falls with your recruitment and football direction department. If you consistently can't buy or sell without waste and needless loss. If you can't coherrently structure a playing squad over time headed in singular footballing direction, in a scientific fashion. 9/10 times you will fail. You will be lost in thr proverbial wilderness making do with an oasis or two of unsustainable success. Even if you throw billions at your fate. That is why I simply can't undertand all the ire directed at the current manager.


Honestly till our footballing equivalent of "the front office" is fixed. We should not be fooled into believing recruiting a new manager will make an iota of a difference. We should all be tired of managerial false dawns by now.

There's a lot of sense in this.

Where I depart from the logic is in saying changing the coach wouldn't make an iota of difference.

Ten Hag himself has already shown better results could be achieved by playing a more reactive style of football. He ditched suicidal openness after Brentford ripped us one at the start of last season. Yet, for some reason, this year he brought it back.

Now, for all the reasons you have given, the Frankenstein football we played after beating Liverpool at home onwards for much of last season probably wasn't Ten Hag's ideal. However, if you know what this club is like and know it'll take time to get the personnel needed to evolve toward something new, surely you need to be very gradual about it.

Play what kept you afloat last season and buy yourself the space and time to make root and branch changes. Instead, what we've seen this season is stubborn refusal to compromise. With the result we've lost 11 times in the league, and made the likes of Copenhagen and Galatasaray look like world beaters in Europe.

Suboptimal yes but why persist trying a recipe that needs pasta when you only have rice? At some stage you just gotta settle for making a risotto, and accept you can't do a puttanesca until you go to the supermarket and pick up some extra ingredients.

Your wider point that we won't be serious without structural change holds true. However, Ten Hag could have managed the transition to the INEOS era much better than he has. As a result he may end up being one of the next big casualties of it.

 

[RedRover]

It's a good point and that's exactly what I wrangle with too. To what degree should EtH be judged as a tactician/manager of the team for the missteps he's made running our transfers? Obviously, he's fully culpable in the sense they're his decisions. But, on the other hand, recruitment and even style of play are increasingly out of managers' hands at the progressive, elite clubs.

While I also don't know exactly where the lines are drawn between club leadership vs manager vs recruiting, I think that in this environment the contributions managers should make is to ensure a recruit's mentality is aligned with what they want. But managers should be less responsible for answering: is this the ROI-maximizing player for us to acquire given their performance, our budget, style of play, mentality, etc? Frankly, I think that type of equation isn't one most managers are well-equipped to answer in full.

I suppose none of us really know what goes on behind the scenes, or, as you say where lines are drawn - but surely, clubs with elite managers in post are not appointing a Director of Football and/or a team of Executives who makes all of the decisions on style of play and recruitment?

Looking at the very elite managers, surely they are at least in part responsible for guiding the clubs they're managing in respect of what they want to achieve and how they get there?

There seems to be a bit of a myth that managers now are reduced only to coaching players selected by others. Clearly, to some extent that's true, and the days of one man running a club like Fergie or Wenger are gone, but surely there has to be some collaboration and people working together with at least similar views on the direction of travel. If he genuinely thought Antony was good enough, and the new regime he works within want him gone, are they going to respect him? Is he going to accept that when he previously had control? I'm not sure that works.

My issue with Ten Hag generally (alongside his in game decisions) is the fact that we don't look like having any real identity as a side. It's not clear to me what he's trying to achieve in terms of a system. He's been unlucky with injuries this season, to be fair, and there's been some bright spots - Mainoo, Hojlund and Garnacho in particular, but I'd expect to see some progress towards an identity that isn't just lumping long balls and looking to play on the break, even conceding the ball to sides we should be able to control. Since Fergie left midfield control has been a problem and it remains the case and that's a massive issue. There just isn't any evidence to suggest he's going to become the elite manager a club of this stature should have.

 

[kouroux]

Crazy that you posted that yesterday, because today the premier league twitter page is celebrating the one year anniversary of that day

Spoiler

Those feckers

 

[RedRover]

Forget playing elite football, nobody is even hoping for that at this stage. Good football would be a start, or signs of a clear plan that makes us difficult to beat and gets us scoring goals. You can't convince me it's simply not possible with these players. Onana, Dalot, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Casemiro, Mainoo, Eriksen, Mount, Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho, Hojlund... there's a lot of talent in this team. Every manager not named Pep or Klopp would kill to have some of the players we have.

One of my first questions to the new manager would be what they think they could do better with our current squad, because I think plenty of managers will be watching us and thinking they could do better.

Agree with this. I personally think there are non-elite managers in the PL doing more with more limited squads.

 

[Marwood]

@jem name a better one that was available for us to sign that window?

You're saying there was nobody better in the world available for £85 million?

 

[ManRed]

@jem name a better one that was available for us to sign that window?

We needed a striker and he bought a RW rather than working to develop Amad or Pellistri. We ended up with Wout, red flags been there last season as well. Rashford purple patch after worldcup kept him in job.

 

[crossy1686]

Crazy that you posted that yesterday, because today the premier league twitter page is celebrating the one year anniversary of that day

Spoiler

Just shows how much psychological damage United have done to people up and down the country in the last 30 years.

I haven't seen any posts celebrating the anniversary of Villa putting 7 past Liverpool or United beating Arsenal 8-2.

 

[tjb]

First of all, the things that were good about him when he was at Ajax, when we recruited him, and during his first season didn't suddenly disappear just because you forgot about them.

But I understand your question and I'll go for it. Despite my more pro-EtH arguments in the two threads, I'm actually on the fence about EtH and voted to get rid of him in the poll. But, playing Devil's Advocate, here are 3 reasons I'm on the fence and think keeping him may be smart:

(1) We are completely overhauling the club structure, overhauling recruitment, and (hopefully) making significant squad change this summer. Those are three big moving pieces. While recruitment decision-making authority will (and should) move away from EtH, having a manager who has actually seen these players' strengths and weaknesses in the PL is an important input. In the worst-case scenario, a new manager coming in might ask to have a full season with our existing players.

(2) Regardless of the fact that the pressing tactics have been less effective this season, the team is definitely learning the style of play. We are currently 5th in Opp 3rd tackles, but just have a much lower tackle success rate in our press than the top pressing teams (Pool, Arsenal, Spurs). I hate to individualize this, but much of that is down to Rashford's very poor pressing, which gets even worse when Hojlund is out and Rashford has to lead the press. And the fact our press is leaving a gap between midfield and defense is largely a recruitment problem - we need a faster/more athletic CB and CDM to compress the space. If Casemiro were playing at last season's level and Martinez were fit, I'm not even sure this would be an issue.

(3) His performance last season was at least decent - and even quite good when our starting midfield 3 were available. We can all acknowledge our injuries this season have been exceptional and impacted several of our most influential players. We also acknowledge the drop in quality from our first 11 to our bench is significantly larger than most of our top 4 rivals. So why can't we acknowledge that injuries are a valid reason for him to underperform this season vs last?

I'm posting this everywhere I can but I keep coming back to my belief that 80-90% of our problems are because of the players and maybe 10-20% because of the manager. I think EtH is just the most convenient target because it's much harder to accept that 9 of our starting 11 aren't the right players to play elite football and it's much more convenient to believe that changing just 1 person (manager) is the difference. It's not.

I can see where you are coming from on your third point in particular. I felt at the end of last season that we were going somewhere. I genuinely believed that with a few tweaks and a fresh season, we could be challenging this year. The problem for me comes with Ten Haag comes with 2 key weakness that he showed this year. The first was his lack of urgency. We had a moderately successful tactic working last season. He switched it to this 4141, actually basing it on performances closer to the end of last season, which I don't think were great. He signed Mount and stuck to that plan. From the first day of the season, everyone and their dog could see the weakness of the system. We've been the worst team in dealing with counter attacks this season. No top team should look like that, but we have. I've seen Casemiro be thrown to the wolves. I've seen us struggle to keep possession. I've seen us struggle to get our attackers involved. I've seen us struggle to create legible chances and concede countless shots. Yet, outside of a one match switch to a 442 diamond, Ten Haag hasn't even attempted to move away from the system. We've been losing games, throwing away the season, and he hasn't even experimented. He's just crossed his arms and hoped for the best. The only other visible tweak he made came in November 2023, when the team was clearly directed to bypass the midfield. Two seasons in a row he's started poorly. This season he's kept a failed system. Does he even want to keep his job? If he does, does he simply not have any ideas? A top manager failing to this extent would have considered that the shape may not be conducive for the league and changed things. Instead, he's put his head in the ground and blamed injuries, despite the system really not deviating too much in performance with our best crop of players.

Secondly, a good system accounts for these injuries. I don't think our depth is bad enough where we can't play good football against anyone. In trying to defend Ten Haag, people are unreasonably throwing every player we have under the bus. Just like people state that Ten Haag was better at Ajax, players like Casemiro, Varane, Bruno and Rashford have been great at different points. Yet, people are comfortable dumping the latter for their performance whilst playing for United, but don't consider it hypocrisy when asking for Ten Haag's stay.

My honest theory is that he's not cut out for the top level. He doesn't have the tenacity, the sense of urgency or the ability to manage personalities. In addition, he's struggling with the pace and intensity of the league. Wenger had average to poor players in his last ten years, but the football when playing opposition less talented than them, particularly in home games, was consistently good. That's what not being supported with the right talent looks like. Ten Haag has played poor football with better players than Wenger had at Arsenal. He hasn't been able to control games against anyone this season, outside of Crystal Palace in the league cup game. For a United manager, that's inexcusable. For a club who spent 400m with him that's inexecusable. And for me, we don't have to take that level of underperformance. It's not an obligation, we don't owe him a job. The fact is, he has proven he cannot work with this group of players to achieve the minimum expectation of playing good football. As many sales as we make, we aren't going to have a completely new team. Even if we did, he hasn't proven to us that we should trust his judgement in getting these players. In addition, he hasn't proven to us that he can perform well in this league. Fair or not, he blew his chance, and now its time for us to let someone else have that chance.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Well if ETH held such an evangelical view on the need for a left-footer, particular one as one-footed and predictable as Antony, then that in itself is a scathing indictment on his judgement.

Maybe it is. But did anyone seriously complain that we were signing a left footed RW who had impressed enough to be a part of the Brazil NT?

You're saying there was nobody better in the world available for £85 million?

Name them then? Who that summer could we have conceivably bought that was available and better? That fit the criteria of left footed RW?

We needed a striker and he bought a RW rather than working to develop Amad or Pellistri. We ended up with Wout, red flags been there last season as well. Rashford purple patch after worldcup kept him in job.

He wanted a striker first. All reports at the time suggested that. He then didn’t get what he wanted and so pivoted to having an additional attacker instead.

Had Amad or Pellestri done anything to suggest they were ready last season to play regularly for us? I’d argue absolutely not.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

There's a lot of sense in this.

Where I depart from the logic is in saying changing the coach wouldn't make an iota of difference.

Ten Hag himself has already shown better results could be achieved by playing a more reactive style of football. He ditched suicidal openness after Brentford ripped us one at the start of last season. Yet, for some reason, this year he brought it back.

Now, for all the reasons you have given, the Frankenstein football we played after beating Liverpool at home onwards for much of last season probably wasn't Ten Hag's ideal. However, if you know what this club is like and know it'll take time to get the personnel needed to evolve toward something new, surely you need to be very gradual about it.

Play what kept you afloat last season and buy yourself the space and time to make root and branch changes. Instead, what we've seen this season is stubborn refusal to compromise. With the result we've lost 11 times in the league, and made the likes of Copenhagen and Galatasaray look like world beaters in Europe.

Suboptimal yes but why persist trying a recipe that needs pasta when you only have rice? At some stage you just gotta settle for making a risotto, and accept you can't do a puttanesca until you go to the supermarket and pick up some extra ingredients.

Your wider point that we won't be serious without structural change holds true. However, Ten Hag could have managed the transition to the INEOS era much better than he has. As a result he may end up being one of the next big casualties of it.

We are in agreement

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Better than Antony? Gakpo for a start - not a huge fan but I’m sure we could’ve had him for that kind of money. I’m sure there are more.

Personally the biggest issue I have with most of Antony's bashers is they are all using hindsight and his over inflated purchase value to rubbish him as a player, for his underwhelming form. I'm close to 90% certain before his arrival NONE of them thought him a shit player let alone a bad purchase. (I'm sure a check through the posting archives about the time of his arrival would confirm this)

The real truth about him is closer to what happened with a Sancho. Thus far it simply hasn't worked. But it doesn't neccesarily mean a 4th rate player was purchased.

 

[Alex99]

Personally the biggest issue I have with most of Antony's bashers is they are all using hindsight and his over inflated purchase value to rubbish him as a player, for his underwhelming form. I'm close to 90% certain before his arrival NONE of them thought him a shit player let alone a bad purchase. (I'm sure a check through the posting archives about the time of his arrival would confirm this)

The real truth about him is closer to what happened with a Sancho. Thus far it simply hasn't worked. But it doesn't neccesarily mean a 4th rate player was purchased.

I've said a few times that Antony at the £30 million(ish) we supposedly valued him at is seen in a far more favourable light (even if he was still somewhat underwhelming). People are just unable to separate his price-tag from their expectations, despite also frequently pointing out how much we overpaid for him.

 

[Marwood]

Name them then? Who that summer could we have conceivably bought that was available and better? That fit the criteria of left footed RW?

I'm not sure why this criteria has been decided. You sure that was a non debatable demand from ETH? Given his current first choice right winger is....right footed.

In terms of other names, I generally don’t get involved with that business. Whatever names are put forward, it'll be said they weren't available etc. Nor do I watch football much or get paid millions to know.

But Leon Bailey is a better player. Villa got him for £30 million.

But there's absolutely no way there was nobody better available for £85 million. That gets you any winger in the world who hasn't already had that big move.

 

[Wolfbot]

What I often find strange is how like clock work our fans in droves turn on a manager every 2 years and label them incompetent, stless frauds, completely certain "the next" manager will miraculously improve the results and consistency of the players on the books. It's never remembered that each change of footballing directiin has NEVER been accompanied with a proper player clesd out to suit the new direction to install a new identity.

Instead each manager going in a new direction merely inherits a majority of players from a different footballing ethos, incredible expected to shoe horn them into their preffered identity. That coupled with a brief of "improving the form of previous regimes" often leads to a first season or two of papering over the cracks. Then once the boss settled in the job tries to fully bed in his true ideals. He finds himself hampered in recruitment and replacement of unsuitable personnel and trying to fully implent a footballig identity to a group ill suited.

Going one of two ways:
either the squad gets caught out unable go implement a new style and performances plummet
or
the new boss attempts to compromise his ideals, resulting in Frankenstein system the manager isn't an expert at implementing, with a schism developed between the players and the coach as both sides become disillusioned with a job neither can fully master.

Meanwhile for the fans, they are killed by the false dawn of old again. They see player they imagine better than then truly failing to do the basics in a system that doesnt quite suit most of them. But lo & behold they are beguiled by hope again and start baying for a new messiah to take them to the orknjsed land of better football.

its completly baffling the vast majority CAN'T accept the simple truth. All the managers recruited since SAF can't ALL be incompetent. With the one common factor running through each failed manager era being a failed recruitment and football direction department.

Some times folks straight up forget footballing success begins and falls with your recruitment and football direction department. If you consistently can't buy or sell without waste and needless loss. If you can't coherrently structure a playing squad over time headed in singular footballing direction, in a scientific fashion. 9/10 times you will fail. You will be lost in thr proverbial wilderness making do with an oasis or two of unsustainable success. Even if you throw billions at your fate. That is why I simply can't undertand all the ire directed at the current manager.


Honestly till our footballing equivalent of "the front office" is fixed. We should not be fooled into believing recruiting a new manager will make an iota of a difference. We should all be tired of managerial false dawns by now.

I actually find the opposite strange in that many people seem to think the same players have been around for ten years and are mostly terrible which is why we're so poor, a few have but there's also been a huge turnover of playing personnel over the last decade. Many of the players excelled in other teams before we bought or have shown a higher level than we are seeing currently.

I also don't really subscribe to the idea that talented international footballers have only one specific style of football that they can operate in, that might be true of the odd player but not a whole squad.

Occasionally you might have a manager use a system that relies on specialist or highly talented players ie Pep with John Stones, or Spurs relying heavily on the ability of Maddison at the moment. That's fine, but if you don't have that player available you have to be able to adapt and play another way whether it's during a period of injury or until a suitable player is available.

Equally, as is the case with United, if some of the players available to you have clear flaws eg are not very quick, for example, Maguire, Varane, Casemiro, you can't play a high line as they don't have the pace to cover the gaps. With that, I don't understand why your plan would be throw many bodies forward at once, creating a huge gap and exposing the clear weakness of the slower players. You could argue the players higher up the park could recover the ball through pressing but for whatever reason we're terrible at actually winning the ball when we press (could be personnel or coaching) so it doesn't work. I don't see the point in continuing to play that way and putting games at risk and that's on the manager.

I'm not claiming the United squad is capable of competing with the best in Europe, but I am certain they'd look a lot more capable with someone utilising them sensibly.

Play to your strengths and adapt gradually. I think most people would have been more than happy with a season of generally solid performances like last year if it was needed, but we're way worse now.

What he's serving up now is like a shite version of what Solskjaer gave us.

Also, injuries have clearly hampered us but it's infuriating that it seems to be a given that we play one way and that's it. It's possible to adapt during a game so you keep tight for a while and play on the counter, then maybe go hard with the pressing for a bit and try and cause some problems, then sit back again and conserve some energy but we only seem to have one game plan, and we don't even look good at it.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Personally the biggest issue I have with most of Antony's bashers is they are all using hindsight and his over inflated purchase value to rubbish him as a player, for his underwhelming form. I'm close to 90% certain before his arrival NONE of them thought him a shit player let alone a bad purchase. (I'm sure a check through the posting archives about the time of his arrival would confirm this)

The real truth about him is closer to what happened with a Sancho. Thus far it simply hasn't worked. But it doesn't neccesarily mean a 4th rate player was purchased.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ant...ntil-june-2027-option-til-2028.469504/page-370

Wont find many saying he’s shit.

I'm not sure why this criteria has been decided. You sure that was a non debatable demand from ETH? Given his current first choice right winger is....right footed.

In terms of other names, I generwlly don’t get involved with that business. Whatever names are put forward, it'll be said they weren't available etc. Nor do I watch football much or get paid millions to know.

But Leon Bailey is a better player. Villa got him for £30 million.

But there's absolutely no way there was nobody better available for £85 million. That gets you any winger in the world who hasn't already had that big move.

I’m sure it was widely reported that was the criteria. If you want to play hindsight then fine but it’s not a great argument given my whole discussion is based around the context of why he was signed. Greenwood a left footed RW was suspended. We knew he wasn’t coming back anytime so he needed replacing.

So again a reluctance to put forward serious suggestions. Leon Bailey in Sept 2022 was already at Aston Villa and was coming off the back of his remarkable debut season where he got 1 goal and 2 assists in the PL. Really think he was the answer then?

Again if there is absolutely no way please name someone who in September of 2022 was available and clearly looked better at the time? Nobody has managed it so far.

 

[CasaStreets]

Secondly, a good system accounts for these injuries. I don't think our depth is bad enough where we can't play good football against anyone. In trying to defend Ten Haag, people are unreasonably throwing every player we have under the bus. Just like people state that Ten Haag was better at Ajax, players like Casemiro, Varane, Bruno and Rashford have been great at different points. Yet, people are comfortable dumping the latter for their performance whilst playing for United, but don't consider it hypocrisy when asking for Ten Haag's stay.

The fact is, he has proven he cannot work with this group of players to achieve the minimum expectation of playing good football. As many sales as we make, we aren't going to have a completely new team. Even if we did, he hasn't proven to us that we should trust his judgement in getting these players. In addition, he hasn't proven to us that he can perform well in this league. Fair or not, he blew his chance, and now it’s time for us to let someone else have that chance.

Enjoyed the full post - selectively quoting you here.

I’m not sure if it’s a question of urgency or stubbornness but I do agree that, either way, he’s failed to tactically adapt this season. @pocco was making a similar point to me earlier and that resonated.

However, I don’t agree with you that a lot of players are being unfairly thrown under the bus. I harbor nothing against a player of ours who tries their hardest but simply isn’t good enough. I can support them while also recognizing their inadequacy. i think these players can’t consistently accomplish more than push for 4th - that’s their level.

For me, even if we make the perfect managerial choice, the best we can hope for with this squad is pole position in the race for 4th. If that means better football, better GD, and an extra 10-15 points come the end of the season then I see the argument for getting rid. But I think it’s a coin toss if a new manager gets that outcome consistently so long as these are the players available.

 

[Sarni]

I've said a few times that Antony at the £30 million(ish) we supposedly valued him at is seen in a far more favourable light (even if he was still somewhat underwhelming). People are just unable to separate his price-tag from their expectations, despite also frequently pointing out how much we overpaid for him.

He would have still been a horrible transfer at £30m simply because he doesn’t offer much as a player.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Maybe it is. But did anyone seriously complain that we were signing a left footed RW who had impressed enough to be a part of the Brazil NT?

So if we couldn't come up with one, it absolves ETH ?

 

[Marwood]

[/QUOTE]

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ant...ntil-june-2027-option-til-2028.469504/page-370

Wont find many saying he’s shit.

I’m sure it was widely reported that was the criteria. If you want to play hindsight then fine but it’s not a great argument given my whole discussion is based around the context of why he was signed. Greenwood a left footed RW was suspended. We knew he wasn’t coming back anytime so he needed replacing.

So again a reluctance to put forward serious suggestions. Leon Bailey in Sept 2022 was already at Aston Villa and was coming off the back of his remarkable debut season where he got 1 goal and 2 assists in the PL. Really think he was the answer then?

Again if there is absolutely no way please name someone who in September of 2022 was available and clearly looked better at the time? Nobody has managed it so far.

I'm not saying Leon Bailey is the answer. I don't want United to sign him. But course we get him for £85 million and he's a better player. Who cost Villa £30 million.

But like I say, whatever name is mentioned, you're going to refute it somehow.

Let's use reality, his current right winger, who he's dropping Antony for, is right footed. Clearyl ETH isn't welded to a left footer.

What about Jarred Bowen? Left footed. Right winger. Criteria that likely doesn't exist fulfilled. Is he better or worse than Antony?

What about Kulusevski?

I've named three now and I don't watch football outside of the Premier League.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I actually find the opposite strange in that many people seem to think the same players have been around for ten years and are mostly terrible which is why we're so poor, a few have but there's also been a huge turnover of playing personnel over the last decade. Many of the players excelled in other teams before we bought or have shown a higher level than we are seeing currently.

Your argument is sensible. However, excelling at other teams is a separate matter from excelling together, when as players you were bought to specfically suit different systems of play. In my view it's not by coincedence that our squad has failed to produced consistently after each footballing direction change since Fergie. It's not logical to believe all the managers employed just couldn't competently adapt these players to their preffered style. Every single manager
regime

I also don't really subscribe to the idea that talented international footballers have only one specific style of football that they can operate in, that might be true of the odd player but not a whole squad.

On that we have to agree to disagree. In my view very few players actually fit all kinds off footballing philosophies. Most times they tend to be grouped into those who suit possesion play, those who suit direct play or counter attacking and those who suit either high intensity aggressive football or low tempo methodical , mid block play. Groups which in turn are separated by those suited to highly tactical schemes and those suited to simpler ones.

That is why because the shambles in our "front office", each manager we have tried to employ to implement a new footballing philsoph has been stuck with a squad of player bought for oppposing football reason yet expected to almost instantly wed them to the new ideas. I honestly deem it neither practicable nor sustainable Thus one could argue our hign turn over of head coaches is proof of that truth.

Occasionally you might have a manager use a system that relies on specialist or highly talented players ie Pep with John Stones, or Spurs relying heavily on the ability of Maddison at the moment. That's fine, but if you don't have that player available you have to be able to adapt and play another way whether it's during a period of injury or until a suitable player is available.

I agree. However the weakness of most modern type managers us they are wedded stubbornly to a particular philosophy of play. Which leads to them often times trying to got square pegs in round holes to insist on how they believe their preffered system must be implemented. Thus one hit by a severe crisis of personnel like ETH with injuries this season. Many drown in their own stubbornness.

Which sort of answers the main question in the rest of your post, which IMO isn't wrong. This is why I feel INEOS should first fix our front office. Then they can choose to keep ETH or not. Then this time they should fully back who they pick to implement a football direction by helping him populate it strictly with players who suit. Even if it means selling 5-6 players in a window. So that if he fails, you simply get in someone better at implementing that singular direction. Never recruting a polar opposite.

 

[Alex99]

I actually find the opposite strange in that many people seem to think the same players have been around for ten years and are mostly terrible which is why we're so poor, a few have but there's also been a huge turnover of playing personnel over the last decade. Many of the players excelled in other teams before we bought or have shown a higher level than we are seeing currently.

I don't disagree with the tactical stuff, but no one is actually saying that we've had the exact same squad for ten years. They're saying we've had a squad largely full of players that aren't good enough to match our ambitions, which is true.

If you look at our signings over three year periods post-Fergie, they are (by and large) not the signings of a team looking to compete for titles, especially when you consider the weakening foundation of the existing squad:

2013-2016 (Moyes and van Gaal) - Fellaini, Mata, Herrera, Shaw, Rojo, Di Maria, Blind, Depay, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin and Martial.

2016-2019 (Mourinho) - Bailly, Ibrahimovic, Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Lindelof, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez, Dalot and Fred

2019-2022 (Solskjaer) - James, Wan-Bissaka, Maguire, Fernandes, van de Beek, Telles, Cavani, Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo

These were largely either players who were once good enough, but not by the time we signed them, or simply not good enough in the first place.

Since then we've added Malacia, Eriksen, Martinez, Casemiro, Antony, Mount, Evans, Onana and Hojlund, which is basically par for the course.

He would have still been a horrible transfer at £30m simply because he doesn’t offer much as a player.

But at £30 million we're very likely to recoup the majority of the fee, despite his performances.

Dan James was shite (remarkably similar output over a comparative number of games), but he cost a lot less and we (somehow) managed to turn a small profit, so he's not seen remotely as negatively.

Antony would still have been a disappointment at £30 million, but not remotely near the status of "worst ever signing" which he is currently an extremely strong contender for.

 

[tjb]

Enjoyed the full post - selectively quoting you here.

I’m not sure if it’s a question of urgency or stubbornness but I do agree that, either way, he’s failed to tactically adapt this season. @pocco was making a similar point to me earlier and that resonated.

However, I don’t agree with you that a lot of players are being unfairly thrown under the bus. I harbor nothing against a player of ours who tries their hardest but simply isn’t good enough. I can support them while also recognizing their inadequacy. i think these players can’t consistently accomplish more than push for 4th - that’s their level.

For me, even if we make the perfect managerial choice, the best we can hope for with this squad is pole position in the race for 4th. If that means better football, better GD, and an extra 10-15 points come the end of the season then I see the argument for getting rid. But I think it’s a coin toss if a new manager gets that outcome consistently so long as these are the players available.

Make no mistake, I think some of our key players should be sold so we can have a true refresh. For me, outside of what I can consider to be suicidal tactics, I do feel that our defensive and midfield lines should be completely revamped ( outside of Licha). I don't think we progress the ball well and that leads to a slow, bogged down play on the ball. I don't believe Ten Haag was responsible for this, it existed prior to his arrival. In this group, I would sell Bruno. I think he's been absolutely outstanding for us and I'm not someone watching us and blaming him. However, we do struggle in our build up play and his position ( AM) might not be one we use moving forward. This season proved that he's not nearly as flexible as we hoped he would be. He gives his best, and what he provides is very close to world class, but as a team, we may need a change in direction and for him, he can get the chance to be put on a pedastal for a team actively playing good football. Of course, this also means Varane, Maguire, Casemiro, Mctominay...but also Shaw. I've always felt in the modern game, having a truly athletic attacking full back has been a key piece we've been missing in our team. Dalot has played well, but its still under review.

With all this being said, I would still keep Rashford. He's shown he can produce goals and is not the reason for our slow, tepid style of play, despite some of his shortcomings in regard to workrate.

For me, the key tenet to any manager coming in, rather than simply results, is performance. Being able to have our team playing with a style that allows for chance creation and control of games. It doesn't matter if it's possession football or gegenpresss or using wing play. What's paramount is that the manager gets the team to play well enough to convince us that with more investment, we can challenge and win big trophies. Where, like Wenger, we can consistently decimate weaker teams. Ten Haag won't be sacked because United finished outside the top 4 or didn't go further in the UCL, he will be sacked because of the football the fans were treated to on the way to this failure.

 

[Daydreamer]

Name them then? Who that summer could we have conceivably bought that was available and better? That fit the criteria of left footed RW?

Seems suspiciously arbitrary seeing as a right-footed Garnacho is keeping Anthony out of the team, but…

Dejan Kulusevski
Jarrod Bowen
Pedro Neto
Muhammed Kudus
Moussa Diaby

£85m would have secured any one of those - you could have bought some of them twice. You can rattle off a sizeable list without even leaving these shores.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

So if we couldn't come up with one, it absolves ETH ?

Come up with one first. Then decide how easy it was to find one that you’re 100% confident in September 2022 was the man we should have signed instead.

The fact everyone rather than answering it is just dancing around it shows Antony was probably and rightly considered the best available left footed RW at the time. He now of course in hindsight is not considered United standard.

What about Jarred Bowen? Left footed. Right winger. Criteria that likely doesn't exist fulfilled. Is he better or worse than Antony?

Bowen moved to West Ham in the 19/20 season and had his first break out season with 12 goals 12 assists in 21/22 season so he could be classed as an interesting player we may have been able to sign.

However many clubs enquired about Bowen and were told in no uncertain terms he was not for sale. Do a quick google search as I have and you’ll see he fails the “available” test.

In hindsight though if West Ham would have accepted £80m for him (which by all reports they wouldn’t) then yeah he would have been a better signing assuming he performed against low blocks without the space he gets playing for West Ham.

 

[tjb]

I don't disagree with the tactical stuff, but no one is actually saying that we've had the exact same squad for ten years. They're saying we've had a squad largely full of players that aren't good enough to match our ambitions, which is true.

If you look at our signings over three year periods post-Fergie, they are (by and large) not the signings of a team looking to compete for titles, especially when you consider the weakening foundation of the existing squad:

2013-2016 (Moyes and van Gaal) - Fellaini, Mata, Herrera, Shaw, Rojo, Di Maria, Blind, Depay, Darmian, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin and Martial.

2016-2019 (Mourinho) - Bailly, Ibrahimovic, Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Lindelof, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez, Dalot and Fred

2019-2022 (Solskjaer) - James, Wan-Bissaka, Maguire, Fernandes, van de Beek, Telles, Cavani, Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo

These were largely either players who were once good enough, but not by the time we signed them, or simply not good enough in the first place.

Since then we've added Malacia, Eriksen, Martinez, Casemiro, Antony, Mount, Evans, Onana and Hojlund, which is basically par for the course.



But at £30 million we're very likely to recoup the majority of the fee, despite his performances.

Dan James was shite (remarkably similar output over a comparative number of games), but he cost a lot less and we (somehow) managed to turn a small profit, so he's not seen remotely as negatively.

Antony would still have been a disappointment at £30 million, but not remotely near the status of "worst ever signing" which he is currently an extremely strong contender for.

You could argue it's the same in our manager selections.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

its completly baffling the vast majority CAN'T accept the simple truth. All the managers recruited since SAF can't ALL be incompetent. With the one common factor running through each failed manager era being a failed recruitment and football direction department.

Another one of the many lies that has been thrown at people here for sometime now.

1. Everything can be true everytime. Eg. We can have incompetent OWNERS, FOOTBALL STRUCTURE, MANAGER, and Players all at the same time. Nobody can say with guarantee in such a setup only the manager is the holy grail and everybody else is a failure.

2. No manager after leaving United since 2013 has gone and achieved anything big that we wanted him to achieve while he's here. Moyes/Mourinho never won PL in England after leaving United in Westham / Spurs. Van Gal/Ole they vanished in the wind. Same with our players. Same with Woodward/Richard Arnold/Glazers they won't leave United and go in another club and achieve success which they failed to achieve while with us.

This shows you, all our
Owners, Directors and Managers have not and will not achieve any success anywhere else, which they failed to achieve at United. Meaning they can't blame one or the other for their failures.

You know why we are poaching Berrada and Ashworth, because they are competent. Why has Woodward not been poached by say Arsenal or Chelsea or Richard Arnold for that matter.


Competent people are very visible in grand scheme of things. You don't need 400m, 18 months to have a plan of how to play. And for that matter a scale-able plan. You don't need fit first 11 to achieve structured football.

Salah is going 3 months injured Liverpool are top of the league. Watch them against City weekend and see if Klopp will have 27% possession because he has injuries..

When our fans will open their eyes, it will be too late. Hopefully the new management are conversant with the new reality of football and will be ruthless to incompetence and not be delusional as some of our fans.