Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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We learned absolutely nothing from last night. The team is still vulnerable from set-pieces, can't control games for large spells, and can be unnecessarily wasteful in front of goal. It's chaotic.

When we do actually score 2+ goals in games, we concede multiple goals.

United 3-2 Forest
United 3-2 Villa
United 2-2 Spurs
Newport 2-4 United
Wolves 3-4 United

Bayern 4-3 United
United 2-3 Galatasaray
Copenhagen 4-3 United
Galatasaray 3-3 United

The 3-0 away win at Everton is the only game we didn't concede in while scoring multiple goals. And even then, Everton had a higher xG. That could have been another 3-3 or 2-3 type of game.
 
Judas said:
We've had finishing struggles all season to be fair, last season too, a few months ago I was hoping it would eventually click, now I cant really say I'm convinced it will.
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We didn't create a lot before though. Yesterday we did, and Hojlund got 3 goals, 2 assists in 3 PL games. With Rashford got 2 in 2 and I think an assist somewhere.

Hojlund also missed a couple but broadly speaking it's great to see we carved open a good PL outfit away from home at will for about 70 minutes.

The manager had his full side out so he had no excuses and I'm on board with that. But I think we played a lot more cutting edge footbal than many games from say, Arsenal, who haven't really suffered losing as many key players as we have.
 
Berbasbullet said:
We didn’t do that though, we kept attacking and got caught on the break. Until we conceded the 3-2 goal we were keeping the ball pretty well and actually killing the game okay (winning corners and keeping the ball far from our goal).

But we then conceded and it became an open game with Antony’s ridiculousness.
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This doesn't really describe what I felt during the game. In 2nd half, Wolves were pushing. We gave them hope because we didn't manage to score which left the door open for them. I don't think, we attacked them a lot, granted, when we won the ball, which happens naturally when you defend, obviously we tried to attack them with pace but more often than not we couldn't create nor sustain any pressure. In 1st half, there was some urgency, the first 20-25 minutes saw us being really good and dominant but the longer the match went, the more Wolves took the initiative even though they weren't really able to convert that into good chances.

iirc there was a phase during Oles time as well where he had problems managing games in terms of being bad at finding a balance between going for it and trying to hold on. This is when our deficiencies regarding actual control and keeping possession to frustrate opponents really shine. I am fine with that not being the plan A but there are certainly situations where it is really benefitial to play like that.

Overall, we did play well yesterday. And that against a rather good Wolves team. But fortune was a little bit on our side as we were able to pounce back twice after conceiding. Both times in a little fortunate circumstances. That was crucial breaking momentum for the opponent, testiment for them to beat that even once.
 
Fallon d'Floor said:
We learned absolutely nothing from last night. The team is still vulnerable from set-pieces, can't control games for large spells, and can be unnecessarily wasteful in front of goal. It's chaotic.

When we do actually score 2+ goals in games, we concede multiple goals.

United 3-2 Forest
United 3-2 Villa
United 2-2 Spurs
Newport 2-4 United
Wolves 3-4 United

Bayern 4-3 United
United 2-3 Galatasaray
Copenhagen 4-3 United
Galatasaray 3-3 United

The 3-0 away win at Everton is the only game we didn't concede in while scoring multiple goals. And even then, Everton had a higher xG. That could have been another 3-3 or 2-3 type of game.
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I thunk chaos actually best describes United under ETH. As we saw yesterday its not about players missing. He doesnt know how to control a game or the opposition.We cant retain the ball, so even if we press and win high on occasion we typically lose it again and then are wide open through the middle. His entire approach seems to be flawed, it was equally evident at the start of the season when everyone was fit
 
NZT-One said:
This doesn't really describe what I felt during the game. In 2nd half, Wolves were pushing. We gave them hope because we didn't manage to score which left the door open for them. I don't think, we attacked them a lot, granted, when we won the ball, which happens naturally when you defend, obviously we tried to attack them with pace but more often than not we couldn't create nor sustain any pressure. In 1st half, there was some urgency, the first 20-25 minutes saw us being really good and dominant but the longer the match went, the more Wolves took the initiative even though they weren't really able to convert that into good chances.

iirc there was a phase during Oles time as well where he had problems managing games in terms of being bad at finding a balance between going for it and trying to hold on. This is when our deficiencies regarding actual control and keeping possession to frustrate opponents really shine. I am fine with that not being the plan A but there are certainly situations where it is really benefitial to play like that.

Overall, we did play well yesterday. And that against a rather good Wolves team. But fortune was a little bit on our side as we were able to pounce back twice after conceiding. Both times in a little fortunate circumstances. That was crucial breaking momentum for the opponent, testiment for them to beat that even once.
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I was talking specifically about the last 10 mins or so of the game. Don’t disagree with a lot of your post though.
 
The park the bus tactics last night were frustrating but it’s been a feature of every manager we’ve had since Fergie

I put it down to the sheer amount of pressure
Fallon d'Floor said:
We learned absolutely nothing from last night. The team is still vulnerable from set-pieces, can't control games for large spells, and can be unnecessarily wasteful in front of goal. It's chaotic.

When we do actually score 2+ goals in games, we concede multiple goals.

United 3-2 Forest
United 3-2 Villa
United 2-2 Spurs
Newport 2-4 United
Wolves 3-4 United

Bayern 4-3 United
United 2-3 Galatasaray
Copenhagen 4-3 United
Galatasaray 3-3 United

The 3-0 away win at Everton is the only game we didn't concede in while scoring multiple goals. And even then, Everton had a higher xG. That could have been another 3-3 or 2-3 type of game.
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That’s a mad old set of results right there

In the league last year we conceded 2 goals or more on nine occasions. This year it’s already ten.

There’s one clear point of difference there (clue - he wears number 24)

Not a De Gea apologist by the way, he was often crud last season but at least he behaved like an actual goalkeeper.
 
GreatDane said:
Our strongest 11 are quite good, they deserve a better manager.
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It's very arguable that the first 11 is very much one of his making. Very much his signings and his promotions to the first team. Very much his tactical set up in the first half.

There's obviously still a problem with in game management, terrible transfers and player discipline but some hope remains. I'm still on the fence about this guy. He deserves the sack if he can't produce top form until the end of the season.
 
Gordon Godot said:
I thunk chaos actually best describes United under ETH. As we saw yesterday its not about players missing. He doesnt know how to control a game or the opposition.We cant retain the ball, so even if we press and win high on occasion we typically lose it again and then are wide open through the middle. His entire approach seems to be flawed, it was equally evident at the start of the season when everyone was fit
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Absolutely. We gave up a lead twice vs Spurs, threw away a 2-0 lead vs Newport, and just about got over the line last night after being 3-1 up at one point.

The players are back and the team still lacks balance. Spurs had 16 shots, Newport had 17 shots, and Wolves had 16 shots.

We've been better in front of goal recently, yet still wasteful.
 
Berbasbullet said:
I’m not sure so I agree with you but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. I mean didn’t we concede both goals on the counter attack? I remember lots of our shirts pushed up into their half.
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Goals number two and three were both from set-pieces.

The first we dealt with an attacking corner poorly, the second we bizarrely overcommitted a ridiculous number of players forward and, as is usually the case, we got countered on. Wasn't in open play though.
 
Did anyone else notice his face after Mainoo scored? Don't think I've seen him like that before - the guy looked manic :lol:
 
Dont think there's many other managers out there with the vision to sub on two centrebacks and two of the the clubs slowest players in the final few minutes and then send them both up for a corner in injury time, while winning.

Then get left in a 3v1 counterattack where Dalot was the only player in our half at one point.
 
hobbers said:
Dont think there's many other managers out there with the vision to sub on two centrebacks and two of the the clubs slowest players in the final few minutes and then send them both up for a corner in injury time, while winning.

Then get left in a 3v1 counterattack where Dalot was the only player in our half at one point.
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Lets get one thing clear, whoever the ten hag outers want as manager is going to make suspect decisions. Theyl make moves which baffle fans, and you can't run away from that. The caf favorite just got thumped 4-0 to Luton, and the other scraped through Brentford at home in the same gameweek.
 
Trophy Room said:
I can see what he is trying to do. Bad subs but then again no bench strength. Set plays still a problem.
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Yeah, it is clear what he is trying to do. It's just a question of whether he can get everything tightened up before a decision has to be made by INEOS on his future. We are still struggling to get the balance right between opening up to attack and then leaving spaces for teams to score against us. I don't think he's been helped with the injuries and also as importantly what I think is now looking like a transfer failure in Onana. However, I do believe with the right players in place there is potential in the tactics to do well.
 
Less than 18 months less on his contract , I genuinely think INEOS will give him a new contract
 
Red00012 said:
Less than 18 months less on his contract , I genuinely think INEOS will give him a new contract
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A lot of new backroom staff will come in and those who appointed him will go. It will be tough for ETH to survive unless he has a major turnaround.
 
He needs to win FA cup and to beat Liverpool at OT to get new contract.

If we finish 7th with no trophy he'll be released.

All up to him and the boys.
 
VP89 said:
Lets get one thing clear, whoever the ten hag outers want as manager is going to make suspect decisions. Theyl make moves which baffle fans, and you can't run away from that. The caf favorite just got thumped 4-0 to Luton, and the other scraped through Brentford at home in the same gameweek.
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Yeah but these are ridiculous decisions in every single game. Games that should be dead rubbers against teams that dont even show up, and he still tries his best to screw them up with shocking game management.

And people will try and put it all on the players, and yeh the players are clearly total idiots for how they conducted that second half and especially injury time, but this is too many times now. Too many times we should be controlling games to an easy win and we're getting caught out in the 93rd minute, outnumbered 3v2 from another horrific set piece "play".
 
Toshey said:
He needs to win FA cup and to beat Liverpool at OT to get new contract.

If we finish 7th with no trophy he'll be released.

All up to him and the boys.
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How would failing to get the bare minimum of top 4 keep his job? This didn't even stop LVG from losing his job. Have standards really fallen that low? Are INEOS exaggerating how high their standards are? I don't think so. He should have gone months ago.
 
Red00012 said:
Less than 18 months less on his contract , I genuinely think INEOS will give him a new contract
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Unless he somehow pulls a rabbit out of a hat and finishes top 4(5) and/ or wins the FA CUP, I can't see renewing a contract being a thing until 6 months into next season and he'd need to be on a title challenging run. INEOS seem to be making all the right moves, extending his contract now is basically doubling the loss you'll make if you sack him within a year. It's exactly what we did during Mourinho, stupid move.
 
One observation about ten hag commentary is how plenty of people who are very quick to pile on seem very slow to credit the emergence of mainoo and garnacho. Yes they are clearly top talents but hes trusted them more than many managers would and so far there's absolutely no indication that he's stifled their potential or development.

Add in hojlund, who i think is a huge talent, and there's a trio of key positions with young players of huge promise.

Seems to me like it's the same thing managers of other clubs might get some credit for, after all he was tasked with a rebuild wasn't he?

They're not the only young prospects either but are already central to us

Players who seem likely to be part of any team he might continue to develop are

Onana, Dalot, Martinez, Mainoo, Rashford, Garnacho, Hojlund. That's 7 players with an average age of 23.
 
VP89 said:
We didn't create a lot before though. Yesterday we did, and Hojlund got 3 goals, 2 assists in 3 PL games. With Rashford got 2 in 2 and I think an assist somewhere.

Hojlund also missed a couple but broadly speaking it's great to see we carved open a good PL outfit away from home at will for about 70 minutes.

The manager had his full side out so he had no excuses and I'm on board with that. But I think we played a lot more cutting edge footbal than many games from say, Arsenal, who haven't really suffered losing as many key players as we have.
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Yeah I don’t really have an issue with our football I thought going forward we were very good bar Bruno which was a very welcome surprise because we created very well as a team and made good decision as. My issue is the late game management and consistent lack of ability to coach the defensive side properly when we need to be solid at the back. It’s not a coincidence we struggle to see out leads especially after subbing off midfielders.
 
I hope thinks turn around for the end of the season with everyone back.

I just can't understand why we left ourselves exposed for their third goal. It was crazy, Maguire Evans surely know better. ETH should have been shouting for more cover.
 
SER19 said:
One observation about ten hag commentary is how plenty of people who are very quick to pile on seem very slow to credit the emergence of mainoo and garnacho. Yes they are clearly top talents but hes trusted them more than many managers would and so far there's absolutely no indication that he's stifled their potential or development.

Add in hojlund, who i think is a huge talent, and there's a trio of key positions with young players of huge promise.

Seems to me like it's the same thing managers of other clubs might get some credit for, after all he was tasked with a rebuild wasn't he?

They're not the only young prospects either but are already central to us

Players who seem likely to be part of any team he might continue to develop are

Onana, Dalot, Martinez, Mainoo, Rashford, Garnacho, Hojlund. That's 7 players with an average age of 23.
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He is bringing them in but equally they are academy products with no link to ETH. Its the bare minimum he should be doing in my view, we need to be careful about scratching around for things to praise. He's also wasted £400m. Hojlund had one of his better games last night but still has a lot to prove. Onana is poor, he's also 27 and was available for free last summer before we spent £45m on him. Why is he in this list? I would rather we had promoted youth than waste £80m on Antony and £60m on Mount. If Amad doesn't get more game time it will be criminal, especially if Antony starts or is subbed on ahead of him.

You talk about 'continue to develop' but which established players have improved? Garnacho and Mainoo we currnetly seen benefit of coaching in youth set up, which we know has improved a lot.
 
hobbers said:
Yeah but these are ridiculous decisions in every single game. Games that should be dead rubbers against teams that dont even show up, and he still tries his best to screw them up with shocking game management.

And people will try and put it all on the players, and yeh the players are clearly total idiots for how they conducted that second half and especially injury time, but this is too many times now. Too many times we should be controlling games to an easy win and we're getting caught out in the 93rd minute, outnumbered 3v2 from another horrific set piece "play".
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A lot of hyperbole in that post.
 
The Mitcher said:
How would failing to get the bare minimum of top 4 keep his job? This didn't even stop LVG from losing his job. Have standards really fallen that low? Are INEOS exaggerating how high their standards are? I don't think so. He should have gone months ago.
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Maybe they might consider what Arteta has done with Arsenal as a template. He finished outside the top 4 for two seasons, won one trophy but did demonstrate some progress while sorting the squad out drastically. It also depends on how they see the project- players like Hojlund, Mainoo, and Garnacho are coming along well with their development with EtH and that might work in his favor.

For top 4 to happen he'd have to go on a run similar to what Liverpool did during that second Covid season (i believe it was then?) but it's probably not likely.
 
Fallon d'Floor said:
Absolutely. We gave up a lead twice vs Spurs, threw away a 2-0 lead vs Newport, and just about got over the line last night after being 3-1 up at one point.

The players are back and the team still lacks balance. Spurs had 16 shots, Newport had 17 shots, and Wolves had 16 shots.

We've been better in front of goal recently, yet still wasteful.
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And the only save Onana made was using his face .. and not his hands ..
 
Irwin99 said:
Maybe they might consider what Arteta has done with Arsenal as a template. He finished outside the top 4 for two seasons, won one trophy but did demonstrate some progress while sorting the squad out drastically. It also depends on how they see the project- players like Hojlund, Mainoo, and Garnacho are coming along well with their development with EtH and that might work in his favor.

For top 4 to happen he'd have to go on a run similar to what Liverpool did during that second Covid season (i believe it was then?) but it's probably not likely.
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Based on the Villa points tally (5th spot), if their points ratio continues to end of season 75points will secure 5th spot.

This means we need at least 40 points out of our final 16 games. Villa, city , Newcastle , Liverpool and Arsenal still to play. So you have to win at least 3 of those games

We really have to win all games that you really should be winning. Beating Villa Sunday week would really be a statement of intent. Being 5 points off then with 14 to play would really start to ramp up pressure on them.

In terms of spurs and Villa , there is a decent chance the required points tally for 5th is probably gonna be closer to 70. These sort of clubs usually start sh*tying the bed if things are tight for CL near end of season. So the key is to keep chipping away at the gap.
 
Irwin99 said:
Maybe they might consider what Arteta has done with Arsenal as a template. He finished outside the top 4 for two seasons, won one trophy but did demonstrate some progress while sorting the squad out drastically. It also depends on how they see the project- players like Hojlund, Mainoo, and Garnacho are coming along well with their development with EtH and that might work in his favor.

For top 4 to happen he'd have to go on a run similar to what Liverpool did during that second Covid season (i believe it was then?) but it's probably not likely.
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Transfers like Casemiro (multiple times CL winner), Onana (played a CL final last year), Mount (also CL winner as a starting player) are players that have the proven quality to win the biggest titles. You sign such players to win stuff now. And with such signings it's a failure if you don't even challenge for titles.

Show me a single transfer who had that experience in winning the biggest titles in Arteta's first two years. There are none. Arsenal signed players who needed to develop, which justifies giving Arteta time to do that. United signed a mix of the final (bordering on past it) product and talented youngsters (Antony is still young, Hojlund as well as the most expensive).

Even now United's squad is almost a year older on average than Arsenal's, and that's several years after Arteta took over and started to sign and integrate a lot of youngsters, who by now matured a bit.
 
hobbers said:
Yeah but these are ridiculous decisions in every single game. Games that should be dead rubbers against teams that dont even show up, and he still tries his best to screw them up with shocking game management.

And people will try and put it all on the players, and yeh the players are clearly total idiots for how they conducted that second half and especially injury time, but this is too many times now. Too many times we should be controlling games to an easy win and we're getting caught out in the 93rd minute, outnumbered 3v2 from another horrific set piece "play".
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Yeah like that wolves team we just played that hasn’t lost a home game since September. Def a dead rubber game.
 
Irwin99 said:
Maybe they might consider what Arteta has done with Arsenal as a template. He finished outside the top 4 for two seasons, won one trophy but did demonstrate some progress while sorting the squad out drastically. It also depends on how they see the project- players like Hojlund, Mainoo, and Garnacho are coming along well with their development with EtH and that might work in his favor.

For top 4 to happen he'd have to go on a run similar to what Liverpool did during that second Covid season (i believe it was then?) but it's probably not likely.
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Are we still really defending ETH? At least with Arteta it was clear what he wanted the team to do even if he lacked some of the players. Who on earth can say what ETH wants from the team. Football for most of season has been woeful, yes it was better last night but Wolves are midtable and have been on the end of some bad results themselves. It was clear at start of season and last night that even with a full squad we are still wide open, concede loads and cant control matches. its the opposite of what the top teams do today. We as a club and fans need some basic standards. The obsession with this guy is absurd.
 
Given I was complaining about it for ages and saying how dumb our pass network charts were, using 2 #10's... It's only fair to put yesterday's in. Very clearly told Mainoo as that second midfielder to play as a double pivot compared to pushing him up. Led to a much better performance. Still a huge gap between the deep players and the attack, but no surprise that dropping one of them deeper led to a much more balanced performance (even if we lost control of the game again, though I'd put that down to the refs garbage decision and shit subs more than the system).

 
I have to give Ten Hag credit for blooding in some younger players and players from the academy. It’s great to see and he has actually been successful in transitioning these into regular first team players. His major problem right now is quality in squad depth. This should improve over time and especially with a new recruiting structure in place. His best 11 is enough to get us top 4. Problem is they all likely won’t stay fit and the drop off in quality and the ability to play his system is just not there. He needs to drop Antony though and try someone else as a backup for Garnacho on the right.
 
BoulderDevil said:
I have to give Ten Hag credit for blooding in some younger players and players from the academy. It’s great to see and he has actually been successful in transitioning these into regular first team players. His major problem right now is quality in squad depth. This should improve over time and especially with a new recruiting structure in place. His best 11 is enough to get us top 4. Problem is they all likely won’t stay fit and the drop off in quality and the ability to play his system is just not there. He needs to drop Antony though and try someone else as a backup for Garnacho on the right.
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Amad must be getting impatient.
 
Irwin99 said:
Maybe they might consider what Arteta has done with Arsenal as a template. He finished outside the top 4 for two seasons, won one trophy but did demonstrate some progress while sorting the squad out drastically. It also depends on how they see the project- players like Hojlund, Mainoo, and Garnacho are coming along well with their development with EtH and that might work in his favor.

For top 4 to happen he'd have to go on a run similar to what Liverpool did during that second Covid season (i believe it was then?) but it's probably not likely.
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Well, they are stupid because they are hoping that Ten Hag magically improves the squad and will accept having no veto and little say on transfers.
 
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