Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[GreatDane]

Same. I think the caf's gone rabid. Even if we sack ETH now there's no first choice to take over. Might as well give him the chance to continue for the rest of the season with most of his first team back.

I was also of the opinion that we shouldn't have hounded mckenna and Carrick out and hired Rangnick. Still think we could have salvaged the season and qualified for CL. Not so confident for this season but hey, might's well use ETH instead of paying him off and hiring an interim with some random coaches.

Give him the chance to continue what?
He has no plan, no working tactic.
We are boring to watch and our results are shite, how people still want him as our manager is baffling to me.

 

[Teja]

This game left a bad taste in my mouth because we looked clueless playing out from the back. However, we scored 2 goals from 2 shots on target, so that can't be considered as a good game. For example Rashford had a lot of good runs yesterday, but I would still consider dropping him if we could for example play someone else on the right and move Garnacho on the left.

For me, the problem is a year and half in, there is no consistent press. On the ball quality and build up can somewhat be solved with personnel, whereas the pressing (and the intelligence required) is the same whether you're a bottom half side or Man City. It's all about the coaching, work rate and the intelligence of the players. I feel we just stick to canned pressing routines and it's too easy currently for opposition teams to find solutions against these in-game. And when they do, we're a bunch of headless chickens - we don't adapt, we just keep doing the same thing and hoping that it'll work.

On the ball, we already got a little better yesterday when Martinez came on but Eriksen was gassed in like 30 minutes and McT is McT. I think something like:

Onana, AwB, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Mainoo, Mount, <... attack> is already good enough to build up well if they get a run of games together.

 

[croadyman]

Considering Ragnick had -400m worth of talent and a full squad of moaning cnuts who refused to play for him your probably right

People might laugh but if Ralf would have stayed on (Sporting Director) and you gave him 400m this club is in a much better state than it is now that’s almost guaranteed.

Getting rid of him was so arrogant of the club and proved just how clueless we are

 

[Freak]

Getting rid of him was so arrogant of the club and proved just how clueless we are

I'm not sure it was entirely on the club. It seemed like ETH wasn't too keen on working with him as well, and if I remember correctly did not want to get Ralf's feedback when he came in.

 

[AltiUn]

Getting rid of him was so arrogant of the club and proved just how clueless we are

Ten Hag did the same, stupid thing every other manager has done which is give these feckless oafs a "clean slate" when none of them really deserve it.

 

[Borys]

For me, the problem is a year and half in, there is no consistent press. On the ball quality and build up can somewhat be solved with personnel, whereas the pressing (and the intelligence required) is the same whether you're a bottom half side or Man City. It's all about the coaching, work rate and the intelligence of the players. I feel we just stick to canned pressing routines and it's too easy currently for opposition teams to find solutions against these in-game. And when they do, we're a bunch of headless chickens - we don't adapt, we just keep doing the same thing and hoping that it'll work.

On the ball, we already got a little better yesterday when Martinez came on but Eriksen was gassed in like 30 minutes and McT is McT. I think something like:

Onana, AwB, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, Mainoo, Mount, <... attack> is already good enough to build up well if they get a run of games together.

There is no consistent team pressing indeed. Bruno running at players at full speed is not pressing. Yesterday I saw Hojlund press effectively for the first time, but you can see there is no cohesive way to do it, it's just random runs while Rashford and Garnacho stay wide or back. So what's the point of pressing in the first place? It makes us more vulnerable than threatening anyway.

Don't get me started on pressing with Eriksen as part of the midfield.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

He is the worst post SAF manger. Cant understand why he hasn't been sacked yet.

 

[Freak]

He is the worst post SAF manger. Cant understand why he hasn't been sacked yet.

I think he's lucked out because of the Ineos deal taking time. If there was no such takeover/minority share investment process I think he'd be gone by now. He will eventually go anyway so it's just a matter of time.

 

[crossy1686]

I don't think any of those are on the level of LVG or Mourinho, I also think ETH is a lot better than he's shown this season, although a level below the prior two. But I guess you think you made a good point in your head.

You're right, with the exception of Mourinho, the names I mentioned would probably also win a cup or so given the money we've allowed managers to spend. The difference is you think they were amazing appointments despite them all making the team worse.

 

[TsuWave]

When you start seeing "top 10 best players of all time" and "your favourite 11 all time" threads taking up space in the first page, it's a wrap. People coming to redcafe for nostalgia trips because the current side is a chore to watch and even more so to talk about.

We regressed considerably. I don't think we're playing until the end of the month now - but I don't expect us to look much/if any different then

 

[WouterWeghorst]

You say you know how the club is run but then you go on to say "he probably said he'd like Antony and then the club spent all their money on him". He himself insisted that he wanted to be involved in transfers heavily. He's apparently known as being very thorough. There is no universe in which this sort of thing is not communicated to him. He must have known it was going to eat up a good chunk of club's budget. Of course he doesn't negotiate the deal himself. The Antony transfer is especially painful because he had worked with him before. Not only was it a financial disaster for the club but it really makes you question his abilities if he can be so wrong about a player he knew so well.

I agree he shouldn't be a DOF but it's just bizarre to me that we're blaming the club for not making signings that fit his style of play.

Why is that last thing bizarre per se? It's pretty normal that City's DoF signed players that fit Pep's system, right? Why wouldn't a DoF sign players that fit into the style of play Erik would want to put onto the club? I see Ten Hag as a very straight forward type of person. At Ajax (and Utrecht before) he'd state what type of players he needs and the club would find them. Sometimes the club comes up with 'special deals' without him maybe needing this player directly, but it would always fit into the philosophy of the club.

United have lacked coherence in their signing in the past years, as was stated everywhere. Get Mourinho --> Sign his type. Get Erik --> get a vastly different type. IF United decide they want to go into the route Erik has set out, and has showed at Ajax, you also have to sign players that fit that mould. Ten Hag can say 'we need a new RB', then the DoF/scouting department should be able to come up with a number of players they think fits the bill. If Ten Hag's preferred signing is too expensive, don't buy him, go into other options. He can still have a saying without being some sort of DoF some people claim he is/was in these past months.

 

[DSG]

Having a fit set of defenders will help

Are you telling me that professional CBs, one with a WC, several CLs and league titles, are crap and that we’re magically going to be able to defend set pieces when Licha comes back?

It’s coaching. To give up 3 free headers on set pieces is 100% coaching. It’s pretty simple.

How anyone can look at that performance and put the blame of injuries is a fecking joke.

‘It boggles my mind. It can be both: the players not good enough and the coach being shite. To give Ten Hag a pass on something that is so easy to implement — set piece defending — is why standards have dropped so much amongst fans.

 

[Werd.]

Awful coach and an arrogant twat to top it off.

 

[Cassidy]

Are you telling me that professional CBs, one with a WC, several CLs and league titles, are crap and that we’re magically going to be able to defend set pieces when Licha comes back?

It’s coaching. To give up 3 free headers on set pieces is 100% coaching. It’s pretty simple.

How anyone can look at that performance and put the blame of injuries is a fecking joke.

‘It boggles my mind. It can be both: the players not good enough and the coach being shite. To give Ten Hag a pass on something that is so easy to implement — set piece defending — is why standards have dropped so much amongst fans.

I didn't mention anything about set pieces but if you want to talk about set pieces the make up of our midfield was small which didn’t help.

Overall defending our defensive line for majority of the season including yesterday has been missing players. Look what happened to Spurs results when Van de Veen got injured.

We miss Shaw and Martinez and we also need to make improvements in the market at RB. So yes having better defenders and a more balanced midfield too (Casemiro is good in the air, McT usually plays because he helps on set pieces etc) will help

 

[Tom Cato]

Having a fit set of defenders will help

Does this mean we wont be able to play good if our defenders get injured?

 

[Cassidy]

Does this mean we wont be able to play good if our defenders get injured?

No it means we will be able to defend better with a settled defence. Unless you believe having majority of your back line out injured does not mean your will defensive play will be worse off

 

[The Mitcher]

Ten Hag did the same, stupid thing every other manager has done which is give these feckless oafs a "clean slate" when none of them really deserve it.

It's not even the same team, can we quit with this narrative that it's somehow the same team every year sacking managers? Half of that rangnick team is now gone.

 

[croadyman]

We can panic replace him with a caretaker and still do those things you mention while actually looking for a new manager while not having a permanent one employed. We are going nowhere fast under tennhah, this as been going almost a full year now

There are options out there for that but convinced INEOS have no intention of looking even when they get ratified which is concerning

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

It's not even the same team, can we quit with this narrative that it's somehow the same team every year sacking managers? Half of that rangnick team is now gone.

It's amazing that this narrative always gets brought up too.

People will just do anything to absolve the manager.

 

[Shark]

It's not even the same team, can we quit with this narrative that it's somehow the same team every year sacking managers? Half of that rangnick team is now gone.

Rashford, Bruno, Dalo, AWB and Mctomminay are the only ones that remain out of who played on Sunday. Two of them are still key players.

 

[Rista]

Why is that last thing bizarre per se? It's pretty normal that City's DoF signed players that fit Pep's system, right? Why wouldn't a DoF sign players that fit into the style of play Erik would want to put onto the club? I see Ten Hag as a very straight forward type of person. At Ajax (and Utrecht before) he'd state what type of players he needs and the club would find them. Sometimes the club comes up with 'special deals' without him maybe needing this player directly, but it would always fit into the philosophy of the club.

United have lacked coherence in their signing in the past years, as was stated everywhere. Get Mourinho --> Sign his type. Get Erik --> get a vastly different type. IF United decide they want to go into the route Erik has set out, and has showed at Ajax, you also have to sign players that fit that mould. Ten Hag can say 'we need a new RB', then the DoF/scouting department should be able to come up with a number of players they think fits the bill. If Ten Hag's preferred signing is too expensive, don't buy him, go into other options. He can still have a saying without being some sort of DoF some people claim he is/was in these past months.

It's bizarre in the context of the United situation. Ten Hag came in here demanding to be in charge of transfers. We can say the club was stupid to do it but you can't use that as his defence now. "The club shouldn't have listened to him and they should have bought him players that they thought would fit his system". If we're going to do it the right way, then we sign players that fit into club's vision and hire a compatible coach.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

No it means we will be able to defend better with a settled defence. Unless you believe having majority of your back line out injured does not mean your will defensive play will be worse off

Maybe. But United have only conceded 3 more goals than at this stage of the previous season, in which the back line was more settled. It's not like defensive numbers have completely collapsed.

 

[mikeyt]

The biggest disappointment for me with ETH continues to be the lack of play style. He came with a lofty reputation of playing a good brand of football yet we’re almost back to Ole ball with very little patterns of play other than pass it to Onana.

We can rightly criticise his appauling transfers and this season I appreciate we’ve had a lot of injuries but not having the team playing with any real identity after 18 months is poor and cannot be defended. It’s been said on other threads but Ange has been at spurs no time at all and already has them playing a clear way. I can’t see him being here after this season unless by some miracle we finish top 4 and have a good fa cup run

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Aren't we doing quite well in terms of pressing, stats wise? Our midfield is carved through so easily though.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of doubt concerning all the injuries. However, Tottenham were just as plagued with injuries as we were for yesterday's match, and they at least try to play and are able to dominate a midfield. We are terrible. However, I have hope that with Martinez and Casemiro fit, hopefully Shaw back soon as well, our build-up from the back will improve drastically. Hope to have Mount back as well. Casemiro with either Mount or Mainoo and Bruno ahead can be interesting. Having Martinez and Varane as CBs will allow is to sit higher up the pitch as well.

Sometimes it's alright and we do win the ball back (though it's usually due to us robbing someone of possession after they dally on the ball - not cutting off passing lanes - not that that is a bad thing/wrong way to press) but a lot of the times it looks a bit like this:



And we're incredibly easy to play around.

 

[spinblade]

We could not even penetrate a high line spurs in the second half. Before Hag came, we said, he can adjust mid game his style. I do t see it, we play the same way, the same players when available. As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result. This is exactly what's happening. Hag can blame not having the players he needs to play his well, but he needs to drill his style which should influence the signings needed. This dont happen, hopefully it changes. I'm all for one for Hag chance, but my patience is going.

Yeah, exactly. I remember a podcast Steve McClaren did where he said something like "I've never seen a manager who can change a game in-game like Erik." Still waiting to see that fabled in-game pivoting from old Erik. He just stands there with his hands in his pockets giving these little negative head-shakes that send out negative vibes to the team. Even when everyone can see within five minutes that something is wrong, he never seems to see the developing issues. Also, he never seems to make tactical changes from the touchline on the fly but rather waits for half time to try make tactical changes, and generally to dismal results.

Also, do you remember when he was embarrassingly chasing after De Jong and he was asked in a presser, "What will you do if you can't secure Frenkie's signature?" he responded with some crap like, "We'll modify another player from the squad to fit that role."? Do you remember that quote from him? I'm still waiting for that modified player to appear. This guy doesn't improve players or tactics, he doesn't develop players into roles and he doesn't seem to notice issues in games or in players.

 

[sglowrider]

Yeah, exactly. I remember a podcast Steve McClaren did where he said something like "I've never seen a manager who can change a game in-game like Erik." Still waiting to see that fabled in-game pivoting from old Erik. He just stands there with his hands in his pockets giving these little negative head-shakes that send out negative vibes to the team. Even when everyone can see within five minutes that something is wrong, he never seems to see the developing issues. Also, he never seems to make tactical changes from the touchline on the fly but rather waits for half time to try make tactical changes, and generally to dismal results.

Also, do you remember when he was embarrassingly chasing after De Jong and he was asked in a presser, "What will you do if you can't secure Frenkie's signature?" he responded with some crap like, "We'll modify another player from the squad to fit that role."? Do you remember that quote from him? I'm still waiting for that modified player to appear. This guy doesn't improve players or tactics, he doesn't develop players into roles and he doesn't seem to notice issues in games or in players.

Does ETH have a twin? Maybe we got the dud version.

 

[spinblade]

Does ETH have a twin? Maybe we got the dud version.

Is it too late to get a refund?

 

[Jim Beam]

Mourinho is free. He was also our most succesful manager so why not. He shat on everyone and everything while being here but the most important thing is that we get rid of this "arrogant twat" as @Werd. said.

 

[El Jefe]

When you start seeing "top 10 best players of all time" and "your favourite 11 all time" threads taking up space in the first page, it's a wrap. People coming to redcafe for nostalgia trips because the current side is a chore to watch and even more so to talk about.

We regressed considerably. I don't think we're playing until the end of the month now - but I don't expect us to look much/if any different then

This is funny and sad at the same time but true. A Wayne Rooney appreciation thread bump too.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Mourinho is free. He was also our most succesful manager so why not. He shat on everyone and everything while being here but the most important thing is that we get rid of this "arrogant twat" as @Werd. said.

No. I don't want to sack one useless failure with another one.

 

[kouroux]

The biggest disappointment for me with ETH continues to be the lack of play style. He came with a lofty reputation of playing a good brand of football yet we’re almost back to Ole ball with very little patterns of play other than pass it to Onana.

We can rightly criticise his appauling transfers and this season I appreciate we’ve had a lot of injuries but not having the team playing with any real identity after 18 months is poor and cannot be defended. It’s been said on other threads but Ange has been at spurs no time at all and already has them playing a clear way. I can’t see him being here after this season unless by some miracle we finish top 4 and have a good fa cup run

We have been there for a while. Except we used to score more goals under Ole

 

[r0663664]

To me, Erik is just a day-to-day manager. Nobody in United will trust him with anything. He is going thru motion putting up XI week in week out. Football will still be dreadful with occasional victory. Radcliffe's bid is still not official, everyone is at a standstill. For his own sake, Erik needs to leave United. More than 50% in this forum ask for him to be sack, fans in the stadium is already booing the team off the field. When most of fans are against you, I can't see him continuing as United's manager. Then you have pundits who criticised his coaching, in-game tactics, transfer and etc. It is like almost everyone is against you and calling you delusional. I can't see him staying unless there is a dramatic change of form and style of football which I seriously doubt.

 

[Rista]

To me, Erik is just a day-to-day manager. Nobody in United will trust him with anything. He is going thru motion putting up XI week in week out. Football will still be dreadful with occasional victory. Radcliffe's bid is still not official, everyone is at a standstill. For his own sake, Erik needs to leave United. More than 50% in this forum ask for him to be sack, fans in the stadium is already booing the team off the field. When most of fans are against you, I can't see him continuing as United's manager. Then you have pundits who criticised his coaching, in-game tactics, transfer and etc. It is like almost everyone is against you and calling you delusional. I can't see him staying unless there is a dramatic change of form and style of football which I seriously doubt.

He's had it very easy compared to previous managers I feel. Especially considering how appaling the results are. Even the media isn't on his back as much as you'd expect it to be considering the circumstances.

 

[NLunited]

The biggest disappointment for me with ETH continues to be the lack of play style. He came with a lofty reputation of playing a good brand of football yet we’re almost back to Ole ball with very little patterns of play other than pass it to Onana.

We can rightly criticise his appauling transfers and this season I appreciate we’ve had a lot of injuries but not having the team playing with any real identity after 18 months is poor and cannot be defended. It’s been said on other threads but Ange has been at spurs no time at all and already has them playing a clear way. I can’t see him being here after this season unless by some miracle we finish top 4 and have a good fa cup run

Just because YOU can’t see it does not mean there isn’t a style of play.

What we can agree on is that improvement is needed.

 

[Gordon Godot]

Just because YOU can’t see it does not mean there isn’t a style of play.

What we can agree on is that improvement is needed.

Classic post. You have unique insights? There was a good video in a different thread about how Pep has changed the nature of defending, with a well structure team shape that allows them to control the game, force the shape of other teams and then control the game and refine patterns. If you dont have that control, then the narrator said it becomes 'navigating the chaos'. Can think of no better description for United under ETH. There are some basic tactics, then the rest is exactly that, navigating chaos. Dont pretend otherwise

 

[hobbers]

Just because YOU can’t see it does not mean there isn’t a style of play.

Nobody can see it.

 

[Abhinav]

To me, Erik is just a day-to-day manager. Nobody in United will trust him with anything. He is going thru motion putting up XI week in week out. Football will still be dreadful with occasional victory. Radcliffe's bid is still not official, everyone is at a standstill. For his own sake, Erik needs to leave United. More than 50% in this forum ask for him to be sack, fans in the stadium is already booing the team off the field. When most of fans are against you, I can't see him continuing as United's manager. Then you have pundits who criticised his coaching, in-game tactics, transfer and etc. It is like almost everyone is against you and calling you delusional. I can't see him staying unless there is a dramatic change of form and style of football which I seriously doubt.

I think he already realises this. There is a definite change in tone to defiance this season, praising non existent performances. While last season, he was more assured and willing to introspect and communicate the need for improvement.

 

[stefan92]

Nobody can see it.

That's just not true. Lots of people here think they see what he is trying to do. And they are mostly sure that it won't work.

 

[bosnian_red]

Classic post. You have unique insights? There was a good video in a different thread about how Pep has changed the nature of defending, with a well structure team shape that allows them to control the game, force the shape of other teams and then control the game and refine patterns. If you dont have that control, then the narrator said it becomes 'navigating the chaos'. Can think of no better description for United under ETH. There are some basic tactics, then the rest is exactly that, navigating chaos. Dont pretend otherwise

Oh there are definitely patterns of play that are visible, there are definitely visible tactics and setups that are evident. The way we build up is very clear to see, the way we press and set up as a team defensively is very clear to see.

Being able to clearly see it doesn't mean it is good, however. We repeatedly have a 3-1-6 setup in build up where the deep midfielder is tasked with an almost impossible job to be press resistant and build up, or for the wide center backs in that 3 to pass through the lines. It doesn't lend itself to control, it's intent is to have the ball in the attacking players feet while they have an overload.

Pressing wise, we press high with 5 players but then leave the fullbacks at home and give the opposition easy out balls, and again leave the lone DM (just call him a lone midfielder at this point) with acres of space to cover on his own. It's a system set up for failure that won't ever work in this league.

 

[bosnian_red]

Nobody can see it.

As others have said, it's very clear what we are doing and trying to do. It is just a shit plan. But we repeatedly see the same patterns of play, the same build up structures, the same defensive pressing structures. Also we repeatedly see the same outcomes from all these (shit) plans.