Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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If we need a player like Martinez to play to our strengths, maybe the Mount funds should’ve been spent securing one.
 
I'm really struggling with this one. I thought he was a really top class manager, and he comes across really well. His ideas and how he talks about them sound ideal for us, but time and again things look absolutely ridiculously poor on the field.

The issue is that we've seen this with every manager since SAF and it's hard not to wonder if there's anyone that can do anything useful with the current setup, or if every manager, regardless of talent, would go the same way. We've allowed a situation where player power rules, where those players are constantly rewarded for mediocrity and then feel emboldened to fight against any manager they don't like for whatever reason.

I suspect that if Beckham, Keane etc., had been essentially bulletproof, and they had known that just getting other players involved to get rid of any manager who makes them work too hard or upsets their mates would work every time, they might have done the same to SAF. From the top down it's not about football, it's about money and power. This is going to ruin any manager who comes along I suspect.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
The SAF comparisons have started.

Honestly @Skills is right. Our fanbase has a weird cult-like feeling when it comes to supporting managers. I've never seen anything like it.
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Ten Hag did really well last season and most United fans (myself included) convinced themselves that we'd finally turned a corner. Sadly it has been exposed as a purple patch/extended honeymoon period and many don't want to believe it. It's the classic boom bust cycle that we've been going through for the last ten years (well apart from with Moyes and Rangnick as they were shite for their whole tenures).
 
OrcaFat said:
This is the classic short-termer view. I guarantee you would have sacked SAF long before anyone realised he was special.
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He had already done special things in the game, very special things.

The only view in modern football is short term. The game has changed, player power and mentality has changed. It’s time to wake up.
 
TheReligion said:
Well we did want another CB or did you miss that too?
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If we need a player like Martinez to consistently play well then an adequate backup should have been prioritised over a player like Mount. It’s not really good enough to say we’re going to struggle to play decent football until all our defenders are fit at the same time, no club in the league operates that way.
 
Glad we got the 3 points but what the hell is the game plan? Why is the football always crap? Win or lose it’s a 90 minute slog every week

We can come away with points simply because we have a few decent players but we must play some of the worst football in the league it’s hard to watch. Embarrassing watching the club struggle to pass a ball, we struggle to do the basics

Generally dog shit
 
Injuries or whatever excuses he wants, he has been here for long enough and there is no clear style of play at all. We are just like we were under Ole

It's sad cos I really want Ten Hag to succeed but I honestly just can't see it anymore. If he keeps using lines about concentration and we need to be better etc. then it's him who is paid to fix that

It makes no sense how international managers can get a tune out of the same players but a guy who works day in and day out gets hot air
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
The SAF comparisons have started.

Honestly @Skills is right. Our fanbase has a weird cult-like feeling when it comes to supporting managers. I've never seen anything like it.
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It’s not so much supporting the manager as supporting the notion that the job cannot be done at the drop of a hat.

It may be the case that EtH is not as good as we hoped when we appointed him. He’s almost certainly not going to be as good as SAF (surely nobody thinks he will be). However, the club and the team are more likely to develop and improve if the manager has time to implement his long term plan. That’s the crux of it but I also allow for the likelihood that EtH learns and develops himself (as I would expect any manager to do). He will get better at all the little things whilst the overarching plan moves forward.

It didn’t have to be EtH. It doesn’t have to be him. But it is him. Sure, the holy grail is a manager with a long term plan who, somehow, starts winning immediately. If you know who that guy is, I’ll take him, no questions asked.

EtH was, I’m sure, appointed for his long term vision. He’s said from day one that it is a long term project. Guaranteed he said it in his job interview. You cannot judge the success of a long term process by looking at what happens at the beginning and that applies to finishing third and wining a trophy in his first season as much as it does to starting the season so erratically this year.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
The SAF comparisons have started.

Honestly @Skills is right. Our fanbase has a weird cult-like feeling when it comes to supporting managers. I've never seen anything like it.
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Why can you not compare? It took SAF years to be successful.

Our fanbase has a weird cult-like feeling when it comes to SAF, almost feels like most posters believe he was a success from the very beginning.
 
Dec9003 said:
If we need a player like Martinez to consistently play well then an adequate backup should have been prioritised over a player like Mount. It’s not really good enough to say we’re going to struggle to play decent football until all our defenders are fit at the same time, no club in the league operates that way.
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Again, no one is saying that. You move from extreme to extreme to try and force your view.

How do you think Arsenal would be doing without Saliba, Gabriel, Zinchenko? Liverpool without VVD, TAA, Konate? Actually how would any side manage with one fit full back and the rest of their first choice defenders injured? No difference to play style or performance?

And that’s with Ten Hag being here one year. Only one player in that defence is actually his. Martinez.
 
Von Mistelroum said:
I'm really struggling with this one. I thought he was a really top class manager, and he comes across really well. His ideas and how he talks about them sound ideal for us, but time and again things look absolutely ridiculously poor on the field.

The issue is that we've seen this with every manager since SAF and it's hard not to wonder if there's anyone that can do anything useful with the current setup, or if every manager, regardless of talent, would go the same way. We've allowed a situation where player power rules, where those players are constantly rewarded for mediocrity and then feel emboldened to fight against any manager they don't like for whatever reason.

I suspect that if Beckham, Keane etc., had been essentially bulletproof, and they had known that just getting other players involved to get rid of any manager who makes them work too hard or upsets their mates would work every time, they might have done the same to SAF. From the top down it's not about football, it's about money and power. This is going to ruin any manager who comes along I suspect.
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Feels like the only manager that could have coped with post- 2013 climate was Pep. That is, someone with a bullet-proof reputation (more than Klopp, given the respective titles and CLs) who was genuinely higher-status than the players and could command their respect; more ruthless and project-driven than an Ancelotti; and not on the downward slope and falling into self-parody like Jose ( instead, having progressive player-improving coaching ideas and willingness to revise his ideas through bringing in new up and coming coaches). Even then, it probably would have taken him also requesting a new DOF and leeway to get rid of literally any player regardless of wage/status
 
OrcaFat said:
It’s not so much supporting the manager as supporting the notion that the job cannot be done at the drop of a hat.

It may be the case that EtH is not as good as we hoped when we appointed him. He’s almost certainly not going to be as good as SAF (surely nobody thinks he will be). However, the club and the team are more likely to develop and improve if the manager has time to implement his long term plan. That’s the crux of it but I also allow for the likelihood that EtH learns and develops himself (as I would expect any manager to do). He will get better at all the little things whilst the overarching plan moves forward.

It didn’t have to be EtH. It doesn’t have to be him. But it is him. Sure, the holy grail is a manager with a long term plan who, somehow, starts winning immediately. If you know who that guy is, I’ll take him, no questions asked.

EtH was, I’m sure, appointed for his long term vision. He’s said from day one that it is a long term project. Guaranteed he said it in his job interview. You cannot judge the success of a long term process by looking at what happens at the beginning and that applies to finishing third and wining a trophy in his first season as much as it does to starting the season so erratically this year.
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The problem is that we're not improving.

We got off a worse start this season despite more investment in the squad. We've got a negative goal difference in the league. We lost our opening 2 games in the CL.

There is no sign of clear progression. There is sign of increasing mediocrity since the league cup final and the results bear that out. If we were slowly improving and showing signs of progression, he'd be getting more support from the people critical of him.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
The SAF comparisons have started.

Honestly @Skills is right. Our fanbase has a weird cult-like feeling when it comes to supporting managers. I've never seen anything like it.
Click to expand...

Yep. I don’t think other teams are this attached to their managers unless they’ve been players at the club too.
 
JoaquinJoaquin said:
Funny how you can’t explain what the game plan is either eh. But yeah, let’s do 7 years.
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We all know what the game plan is, surely? We have a pretty clear general tactic and set up - pressing high up with two high no8s, CBs and FBs tucking into midfield to cover the space. The problems are that we are not well enough drilled to carry out the plan for 90 mins and we have forwards out of form. Not to mention the injuries (psstt “don’t mention the injuries!”). Hope that helps.
 
Dec9003 said:
Rather than attacking me personally, please could you tell me what style of play the manager is currently trying to implement, if you can that is.
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It was explained by posters over and over again, don't be surprised when people get tired of it.
 
OrcaFat said:
We all know what the game plan is, surely? We have a pretty clear general tactic and set up - pressing high up with two high no8s, CBs and FBs tucking into midfield to cover the space. The problems are that we are not well enough drilled to carry out the plan for 90 mins and we have forwards out of form. Not to mention the injuries (psstt “don’t mention the injuries!”). Hope that helps.
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Apparently many here have no idea
 
alexthelion said:
Why can you not compare? It took SAF years to be successful.

Our fanbase has a weird cult-like feeling when it comes to SAF, almost feels like most posters believe he was a success from the very beginning.
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Because football is different now and SAF's work at Aberdeen is leaps and bounds ahead of anything ETH did in his career.

And there's no guarantee that ETH succeeds if we just give him 5 years whilst ignoring everything.

The comparison is stupid and will remain stupid.
 
TheReligion said:
Again, no one is saying that. You move from extreme to extreme to try and force your view.

How do you think Arsenal would be doing without Saliba, Gabriel, Zinchenko? Liverpool without VVD, TAA, Konate? Actually how would any side manage with one fit full back and the rest of their first choice defender injured?

And that’s with Ten Hag being here one year. Only one player in that defence is his. Martinez.
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That’s my point, though. Instead of prioritising Mount maybe that money should have been spent getting defenders that better suit the managers style of play. Out of the defensive unit today Onana, Evans and Amrabat are the managers signings, the idea that he’s only signed Martinez is patently false. Obviously when a team gets injuries their results suffer nobody is suggesting otherwise, but it’s clear this season that the defensive options aren’t the clear issue in the way we perform as a team. They’ve alI had minutes and we’re yet to really get going in terms of performance.
 
evil_geko said:
It was explained by posters over and over again, don't be surprised when people get tired of it.
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If you ever get tired of a certain poster just put them on ignore? I think if you’re going to discuss a manager his style of play is obviously going to come up at some point.
 
TheReligion said:
It’s foolish to fail to acknowledge that Shaw and Martinez are absolutely vital to the style of play.

Last season Martinez was transformational in his style and ball playing.
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Brighton lost Estupinian and didn't fall apart. Weird.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Because football is different now and SAF's work at Aberdeen is leaps and bounds ahead of anything ETH did in his career.

And there's no guarantee that ETH succeeds if we just give him 5 years whilst ignoring everything.

The comparison is stupid and will remain stupid.
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Don't agree.

Trouble is, with a lot of our fanbase, if we're not winning from the get go, they start to call for the manager's head before really giving him a chance.

I dread to think what they would have been like between Sir Matt and SAF. Many are crying over 10 years, I dread to think what they'd be like if they have to wait 26nmyears again.
 
Dec9003 said:
That’s my point, though. Instead of prioritising Mount maybe that money should have been spent getting defenders that better suit the managers style of play. Out of the defensive unit today Onana, Evans and Amrabat are the managers signings, the idea that he’s only signed Martinez is patently false. Obviously when a team gets injuries their results suffer nobody is suggesting otherwise, but it’s clear this season that the defensive options aren’t the clear issue in the way we perform as a team. They’ve alI had minutes and we’re yet to really get going in terms of performance.
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Again. You are clueless.
 
After the City game, November isn't a bad month for fixtures if we're to keep grinding out results and trying to get our players back but December is pretty awful. Honestly don't know if he'll last until the January transfer window.
 
Dec9003 said:
If you ever get tired of a certain poster just put them on ignore? I think if you’re going to discuss a manager his style of play is obviously going to come up at some point.
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The point they are making is the style of play has been explained time and time again yet people like yourself are oddly asking for an an explanation. Are you just lazy or stupid?
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
The problem is that we're not improving.

We got off a worse start this season despite more investment in the squad. We've got a negative goal difference in the league. We lost our opening 2 games in the CL.

There is no sign of clear progression. There is sign of increasing mediocrity since the league cup final and the results bear that out. If we were slowly improving and showing signs of progression, he'd be getting more support from the people critical of him.
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Yeah, I understand that as a reaction but it takes longer. True about our form since the cup win. But it is complex. Improvement won’t be linear, it will be more like an inclining sine wave with peaks and troughs but the overall trend should be up. We have to look at it over a longer period.

I think the overall trend is up. Nothing is quite working now but it’s a good sign that EtH is persevering. He definitely makes errors but, despite everything, we’re only six points behind City and that’s during a terrible run of form and results.

I’d concede that we do need the next upturn and peak in the “sine wave” soon or the basis of my argument will pretty much dissolve!
 
TheReligion said:
What’s the relevance? Odd comment
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People are aware of the injuries, it shouldn't be the cause of the current shite on a stick football. Also, if he implemented his philosophy, other players can be fitted into it not just his starters. Otherwise we're fecked if his system falls apart because of 1 or 2 players.
 
TheReligion said:
You know why Evans was signed. You also know Amrabat isn’t a defender.

You are very odd.
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Evans was signed as cheap cover and he’s done that role well, no problems with him so far.
He was signed by Ten Hag though, so saying: “Only one player in that defence is his. Martinez.” Isn’t actually the case sadly.
 
mu4c_20le said:
People are aware of the injuries, it shouldn't be the cause of the current shite on a stick football. Also, if he implemented his philosophy, other players can be fitted into it not just his starters. Otherwise we're fecked if his system falls apart because of 1 or 2 players.
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Yet oddly it took Klopp a couple of years and the signing of Allison and VVD to get going and Pep a good 12 months and a whole new back line.
 
Dec9003 said:
Evans was signed as cheap cover and he’s done that role well, no problems with him so far.
He was signed by Ten Hag though, so saying: “Only one player in that defence is his. Martinez.” Isn’t actually the case sadly.
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Definitely not lazy
 
the_cliff said:
Some people act like Ten Hag had a choice between Evans and prime Maldini the way they go on.
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Its strange as the poster is trying to be critical but Evans was signed as back up on the cheap (as we have no money thanks to the Glazers) and he’s actually been good. Also very much needed given the injuries.
 
TheReligion said:
Yet oddly it took Klopp a couple of years and the signing of Allison and VVD to get going and Pep a good 12 months and a whole new back line.
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I remember a certain amount of scoffing about Klopp not transforming their results overnight. I also remember that from what I saw, and the way serious football writers were approaching what he was doing, Liverpool looked pretty fluent early on, and it was just fine margins (and having the likes of Karius in goal) that kept them from winning things earlier..

As people elsewhere have said, it's not even so much about the results, but about how disjointed - even accounting for the injuries, which, yes, we all know about - the patterns of play Consistently appear to be. That's not even getting onto the decisions around signings -from going all in on Antony to the way the club addressed the gaping issues of CM this Summer, with the direction clearly led by Ten Hag. ..

Likewise, City were a pretty slick machine most of that season, who just happened to lack a genuinely good sweeper goalkeeper, along with a little more robustness in midfield in certain key games, to complement their style and ended up leaking too many goals as a result and losing 2-3 games they should have won. Style was a world away from ours and you could see a definite pattern of progress...
 
If his whole system relies on Martinez (who has some major flaws for the PL) and Shaw we're in trouble.
 
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