Foreign Man in doesn’t speak perfect queens English shocker.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
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It's more than doable though. The players we have are capable of playing to a much better standard.
I really do hope once he gets his ideas/formation/philosophy across we can start playing some good football.
Most importantly the players need to get behind ETH and give it a proper go. No more sulking and crying. Hopefully this summer we get rid of the unhappy bunch (Lingard,Bailly,Henderson,Pogba) and we can start seeing some more positivity again.
Undoubtedly, Ten Hag will have to make do with many of the players that have not been producing the goods for us. The difference this time around is that these players will be managed individually, on a 1-2-1 basis. They will know exactly what is expected of them, and what they need to work on and where they fit into the team. It's a bit like turning up at a new job, and nobody telling you where to go or where your desk is or what they want you to do. But now imagine you turn up and your boss is waiting for you as you arrive, and he has a 20 page dossier on you, and it tells you what your next meal is going to be for the next 12 weeks and when you should go to the toilet and how not to slouch in your chair and what websites you are allowed to go on at work, and if you don't do what is expected what the consequences are, and if you achieve these bespoke tasks, what the rewards are. It is the difference from knowing nothing to knowing absolutely everything. And that is exactly the thing what all players need.
There are players in this squad who are worth saving and those who have passed the point of no return. I wouldn't be too dis-heartened if we started next season with Martial, Rashford and Sancho up front. They won't be the same players we saw last season. They will have a game plan, they will inter-change, back each other up, win the ball back and close down the keeper. They will be different. You have to open your mind to these possibilities, because setting your house on fire because you don't like the bathroom or kitchen isn't something that you would do in the real world, so don't expect Ten Hag to do it here. He will make his own judgements. Players will not be picked on reputation alone, they will be selected on their ability to play in his system. And that could mean some people we don't rate getting picked over others. And some players we really like getting moved on, because they can't play in his system. We just need to let this guy do his job and trust him. He is the best man for us right now, and we have to be patient.
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Matic
Mata
Pogba
Lingard
Cavani
that’s 5 gone for definite
You’re very wrong if you don’t think those 5 alone will alter the club culture. Some players will almost certainly be sold too.
I’m unsure why people don’t see this
I doubt a lot of players are thinking about football right now. More likely how many likes can their shirtless selfie on a Dubai beach get and which group of escorts are they going to take to their hotel room.
A lack of charisma can be a major issue when you want a bunch of arrogant twats on your side.
Yep.
Right now, there's hardly a player on our books who isn't considered useless by a subset of fans.
If people aren't willing to forgive and forget to some degree, I can see it turn ugly very quickly provided a) we don't sign practically a brand new XI (which obviously won't happen) and b) we struggle initially (which is a very realistic possibility).
So you're saying that people being on vacation should think about not being on vacation but being at work?
What the feck did I just read?
I just want to go over a couple of things here in your fantasy type scenario.
A lot of people have raised concerns about De Gea and his suitability for Ten Hag's style of football. If you're picking up £40m for Henderson (I don't think we're likely to get anything even close to that in truth) then surely it would be a better idea to bring in a goalkeeper more suited to Ten Hag's idealisms for a goalkeeper to genuinely challenge, or even take over from, De Gea rather than a purely back-up goalkeeper on a free who isn't that much better suited to Ten Hag's football than De Gea is?
You'd move AWB out and replace him with a left back? Don't we already have two of those? Surely it would make more sense to sign a right back to replace the dreadful Dalot if we are moving AWB on, or if you want to sign Lodi then moving on Telles or Shaw?
You'll find no arguments from me on Neves, but I'm not sure I see the logic in FDJ or Neves. If both were available I see no reasons why they wouldn't work well together in either of Ten Hag's preferred set ups. They're very different players that's why I don't understand why you'd say one or the other. Nevertheless, I agree on Laimer, another good player but I feel the link was much more driven under RR than it will be under Ten Hag.
Same question as above regarding Nunez / Nkunku, very different players. Surely we form a view on how we want to play and bring players in to suit that rather than the approach of "oh, that forward isn't available, so we'll sign this one despite them being a very different type of player" which we've taken over the past few years. I like Nkunku if I'm honest, he's been high on my list of players I'd be targeting for 18 months or so, so I'd be very happy with him.
Just intrigued as to a couple of the options you pulled out, not having a dig.
Why? Do we now have an 8 months break until next season?
If they're worried about their positions then they are thinking about work. It's time reflect on what they can do better and whether they should be at United.
100%. If any player is prepared to buy into Ten Hag's vision and put the work in they shouldn't be written off.
Blimey, I found some sense .
Absolutely, unless they downed tools for any reason last season. Then they should be unequivocally booted out the door. I’m all for second chances, but there are lines you don’t cross.
Reading some of the discussion around Grealish struggling in his first season under Pep, and it being a running theme at City with Bernado, Mahrez and Rodri all not hitting the ground running.
Had me thinking if we are going to have similar issues with Ten Hag, due to the similarities in style and intensity as Pep, but on a bigger scale as we're going to have a squad of 23 players adapting to him. I'm on board with having a true rebuild and a struggle to gain top 4 and possibly even top 6. But it's something I think we need to be aware of.
Had me thinking if we are going to have similar issues with Ten Hag, due to the similarities in style and intensity as Pep, but on a bigger scale as we're going to have a squad of 23 players adapting to him. I'm on board with having a true rebuild and a struggle to gain top 4 and possibly even top 6. But it's something I think we need to be aware of.
That’s a good point. A) as you say is devoid of realism, and b) is also guaranteed to happen at some point. I’m not gonna go into Fergie’s six years or Klopp coming eigth again (heck, I just did), but even Pep, after winning his first ten games straight with City, had large swathes of pundits and fans concluding assertively that he had been ‘found out’ by the end of his first season.
As long as a number of posters are of the opinion that having an opinion mens being very sure about something you have very little reason to be sure about, it’s probably gonna look like that here on the Red Cafe as well next season. Let’s hope players and their friends and families stay a long way from places like this!
Feck charisma. Much prefer a ruthless leader. Leading with authority and a stern face. Can’t play his style of football - out the door.
You are probably right. Equally important I think: Every iamginable way towards improvement passes through those steps of club getting behind manager, manager getting behind most players, players getting behind manager, and fans getting behind team. Without those steps, getting better is impossible.
I think people are judging him as a public speake. Conte for example is nothing great as a public speaker either. And it's his first press conference anyway
Zidane and Ancelotti
It's all about your work. There are many ways to inspire people. Being a loud personality isn't the only way.
Do you think Pep has charisma?
Yeah but we don't have time to give everyone a blank slate
Yep. Ole made a huge mistake trying to keep everybody happy at once. This is just impossible.
He should have let Lingard go to West Ham, he should have made a proper decision over DDG/Henderson, he should have sold Bailly instead of promising him more minutes.
We should never have begged Cavani to stay another year when he clearly didn't want to.
All these things have added up, and the dressing room has become very unhappy. You'll never get anywhere like that.
DDG quite clearly stated it. If you are unhappy, leave. The club need to allow this also though. Stop thinking of the money involved and just clear house.
Once we get some harmony again, a fresh start and some positivity things will start to look better again.
Yeah dont you ?
I hope he is ruthless. A real dickhead. If not i can see the nick names our childish players are gonna give him being a small, bald and weird. Half joking here, but its probably the truth with the type of players we got at our club.
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He is their manager, not their friend. I like his tough, direct approach than all this fancy blabla
Not at all, I find him quite awkward and nerdy. Wouldn’t say he’s got a particularly great presence. He’s a bit like Rafa who was also very successful as a manager.
Few more posts and we will see "ETH should enter dressing room with whip" 
I'm not concerned about his style or personality, I wanted Conte after all and liked Jose, who both had that bluntness to them.
My main concern is perhaps him being overconfident or underestimating the problems here. I don't think it's just tactical and think that, if he tries to work with these lot, the outcome will surely be the same with them selling him down the river.
I said a while ago that I hoped he wouldn't come in with the same "assess what we have for a year" approach, because things will turn ugly once again and when we're in the midst of that anger and criticism, fingers will be pointed at him and all what I have said will be pointed out. Im not confident he'll survive it if the shit hits the fan again. We already have a depleted squad next season which will mean injuries will only exasperate these issues for him.
You can absolutely see a scenario where it goes very wrong again.
My main concern is perhaps him being overconfident or underestimating the problems here. I don't think it's just tactical and think that, if he tries to work with these lot, the outcome will surely be the same with them selling him down the river.
I said a while ago that I hoped he wouldn't come in with the same "assess what we have for a year" approach, because things will turn ugly once again and when we're in the midst of that anger and criticism, fingers will be pointed at him and all what I have said will be pointed out. Im not confident he'll survive it if the shit hits the fan again. We already have a depleted squad next season which will mean injuries will only exasperate these issues for him.
You can absolutely see a scenario where it goes very wrong again.
In fairness I think he had made a decision about Henderson and de gea but unfortunately Henderson got covid just before season start and then suffered from long covid, so De gea stepped in and found his best form again, became difficult to drop because of his form. Rangnick never gave hendo a chance, clearly didn't like him either.
The cavani issue was caused by the sudden signing of Ronaldo I belive the club signed Ronaldo I don't think he was one of Ole's targets, when he convinced Cavani to stay i suspect Ole was very much of the opinion of he wasn't getting another forward in before the season so convinced Cavani to stay and then bam the club dropped Ronaldo on him, 'heres a past his best GOAT who is demanding to play in every game, demanding the number 7 shirt and dosent fit your philosophy at all,but I'm sure you can make it work because its Ronaldo.
I think the Ronaldo signing was the catalyst for the dressing room carnage, I think it also compleatly upset the tactical plans that Ole and his team had made for the upcoming season and they suddenly had a huge personality in the dressing room stepping on alot of people's toes that they didn't really know how to fit into the team.
Oh and on Lingard I'm pretty sure Ole was quite happy for him to leave but noone was willing to pay the money or the wages to sign him. So again he was stuck with him to try and make the best use of him.
Ole should of been stronger and more ruthless i think he should of turned down the Ronaldo signing 'if he could', dropped de gea as soon as Henderson was fit again and also told Lingard that he had no place here. But hindsight is wonderful and he did none of that and it was probably what caused his downfall.
I’m very interested to know what the tactical plans and philosophy Ole had planned to implement this season that he couldn’t due to Ronaldo coming. Please elaborate….
Manchester United fans are one the most forgiving bunch in the world. Whenever a new manager came in, the fans hyped him up and if the players are showing consistent effort, the fans will get behind them. The question is, if players, who repeatedly struggled to do so in the past, can do it with a new manager.
In the end its about quality and forcing ETH to work with 20 players of the current squad, is setting him up for failure. Individually a few of these can certainly turn it around, but the dynamic of the club has to change and its imo unrealistic when the group doesn't change substantially. Most of these players got plenty of chances and there are limits to what a manager can do.
Its going to turn ugly fast if its same old story: okay results, but poor performances with little effort or team cohesion.
Agreed with that.
Ronaldo has been a blessing and a curse at the same time. The Greenwood situation has screwed us also. Even if we wanted to drop Ronaldo Cavani has been AFK for ages, Martial went on loan.
We really need to stop panicking like that in the future, I don't think ETH will be the type that accepts buys he doesn't want.
So Blind?
Agree, dont know enough of Ten Hag. My point is simply a lot of these players are simply not good enough whoever th emanager or coach is, they are not intelligent, talented or driven enough to get on board or put into action his ideas, so he will struggle. Think despite several moving on far more should be and it is them as players not management, too many excuses been made for too many bang average players too long here
For what it’s worth I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here, a lot of our fans seem to think Ole ran the club during his tenure (blaming him for pointless contract renewals etc)
Have maintained since he was booted that Ole had to go because the dressing room was broken rather than coaching or tactics. He certainly wasn’t what we needed to get back to the top, but he also wasn’t the worst PL manager ever as many of our own fans would have us believe.
The dressing room was destroyed because there were too many unhappy fringe players, and the arrival of Ronaldo causing disruption.
Yes, Ole mollycoddled them to a degree but there is an element of that required in team management - even Fergie let certain players get away with things if that’s what got the best out of them.
Ole should have been stronger though when it came to the Lingard and Ronaldo situations, but he toed the line and that’s what got him sacked in the end.
He’ll suffer the same fate as all the others if he doesn’t sort the midfield out this window..fred and mctominay have proved time and again that they cut it together at this level, and now we don’t even have old man Matic to spare our blushes
Shame that's the only place they will be capable of doing so.
If he can makes United playing equal good or better than the Ajax he left next season. Then i will be more than satisfy. Because the way the Ajax team was playing. I think they shall be good enough for top 4 in premier league. But the different between the Ajax team and United team is really big.
United dont have a magical left foot in Tadic. Who beside scoring goals had between 15-20 assists. Ajax had a stronger CB duo, better defend line and better wingers. United without any good RW right. And incosistent attacking line because of the affect of the poor collective. A collective collapse.
So sum up and in short words. United biggest problems Ten Hag to fix :
+ Yet again. United shall get another world class CB or closest to that level as possible. Still after the years of Lindelof, Maguire and Varane. United still another world class CB.
+ A top level nr.6 in a 433 formation. The balance midfield controlling and dictating cm player
+ A new top level and creative nr.8. You can say a Pobga replacement if he decide to leave. Since Pobga has been incosistent in that creative attacking role. United have been screaming for a Scholes, Modric and Eriksen playmaker of type player. Not the creative sitting back cm playmaker. But a more offensive and attack nr.8. Since the time of Scholes retirement and back to David Moyes time. That problem havent got fix yet or someone consistent good enough to cover the super conistent creative role and job Scholes was doing. Even Bastian from Bayern and Germany was struggling to did that. Understandable because of injurires and Bastian wasnt on his peak, but on the way down his career when he joined United. Like Cavani and Ronaldo. Those 3 were at the end of theirs career
+ A new top RW.
So there are 4 clearly positions United and Ten Hag need to solve. To at least to be good at this current Ajax team and closer to City and Liverpool level.
I can mention and suggest some names in each positions mentioned above:
+ A new CB. There has been linked with Timber and L.Martinez. United have many right foot CB in this current squad. And does have speed too. But with a left foot CB. Who can dictate, controll and deliver precise diagonal long passes from left area/back to a really quick and skill RW. Special set up for counter attack against a high back line. Can be a dangerous and effective attacking weapon.
But if Ten Hag thinks United need both of them. Need both of Timber and Martinez at United. Then he shall for it. But who is most needed as CB. At this United current situation and squad. I think i would go more for Martinez. Martinez is more a natural leader and outgoing than Timber. Martinez is aggresive and really hate to loose. So he will pust rest of team to give the best. United need top fighting and winning mentality.
I will set up a line up with both of them later.
+ The controlling DCM/nr.6 playmaker. There are few i think can do a decent job as nr.6. With more practise, get use in that role as the highest level and with Ten Hag guidance how to play that role. Then i can see Fred and James Garner in that role. But if they are good enough to be a regular starter in a team that are battling for top 4 or better is another question.
Like Ten Hag just said. I think Fred and Garner will do a good enough job in that nr.6. But for Ten Hag "good is not good enough". I agree with that. The level shall be closest to Pirlo, Busquets, Carrick or Rodri is doing for City. And Fred and Garner at this moment is not on the top level as nr.6. Clearly.
Reason why i think Ten Hag shall get a new nr.6. With external solution.
And with external solution there are 2 nr.6 i think meets those expectations of level. Those 2 are Aurélien Tchouaméni and Manuel Locatelli.
+ And for the new top creative nr.8. I am still searching and still havent come to the last decision who i should go for yet. Jude Bellingham is one of the option. But i m still looking for another options.
+ And for RW. There are 2 options with a 3 rd alternative. First Antony who has been linked with United. Then another really good RW in Raphinha. Then the third option is Leverkusen and France RW Diaby.
So now how to line up those options in each position. In Ten Hag most use formation 433.
RB - Varane/Timber - Martinez - LB
Raphinha/Antony - RCM = Bellingham? - CDM Tchouaméni/Locatelli - Bruno - Rashford/Sancho
CF: Rashford/Ronaldo/Nunez
There you have. 433 turn out to be a 451 without the ball and in the defensive. RW and LW track back to help the fullbacks. Become a 5 men midfield. Make 433 and total compact, tight and hard to break down. But still have super fast and skill full wingers always ready to counter attack or good enough to beat defenders against establish defenders.
So conclusion. Those are mine suggest and recommendations. But if Ten Hag is having his own targets and options he shall go for. But from mine scouting and formation analizing. Those players i have mentioned are best and from United realistic can get and buy from.
From a freelance scout and United external consultant
United dont have a magical left foot in Tadic. Who beside scoring goals had between 15-20 assists. Ajax had a stronger CB duo, better defend line and better wingers. United without any good RW right. And incosistent attacking line because of the affect of the poor collective. A collective collapse.
So sum up and in short words. United biggest problems Ten Hag to fix :
+ Yet again. United shall get another world class CB or closest to that level as possible. Still after the years of Lindelof, Maguire and Varane. United still another world class CB.
+ A top level nr.6 in a 433 formation. The balance midfield controlling and dictating cm player
+ A new top level and creative nr.8. You can say a Pobga replacement if he decide to leave. Since Pobga has been incosistent in that creative attacking role. United have been screaming for a Scholes, Modric and Eriksen playmaker of type player. Not the creative sitting back cm playmaker. But a more offensive and attack nr.8. Since the time of Scholes retirement and back to David Moyes time. That problem havent got fix yet or someone consistent good enough to cover the super conistent creative role and job Scholes was doing. Even Bastian from Bayern and Germany was struggling to did that. Understandable because of injurires and Bastian wasnt on his peak, but on the way down his career when he joined United. Like Cavani and Ronaldo. Those 3 were at the end of theirs career
+ A new top RW.
So there are 4 clearly positions United and Ten Hag need to solve. To at least to be good at this current Ajax team and closer to City and Liverpool level.
I can mention and suggest some names in each positions mentioned above:
+ A new CB. There has been linked with Timber and L.Martinez. United have many right foot CB in this current squad. And does have speed too. But with a left foot CB. Who can dictate, controll and deliver precise diagonal long passes from left area/back to a really quick and skill RW. Special set up for counter attack against a high back line. Can be a dangerous and effective attacking weapon.
But if Ten Hag thinks United need both of them. Need both of Timber and Martinez at United. Then he shall for it. But who is most needed as CB. At this United current situation and squad. I think i would go more for Martinez. Martinez is more a natural leader and outgoing than Timber. Martinez is aggresive and really hate to loose. So he will pust rest of team to give the best. United need top fighting and winning mentality.
I will set up a line up with both of them later.
+ The controlling DCM/nr.6 playmaker. There are few i think can do a decent job as nr.6. With more practise, get use in that role as the highest level and with Ten Hag guidance how to play that role. Then i can see Fred and James Garner in that role. But if they are good enough to be a regular starter in a team that are battling for top 4 or better is another question.
Like Ten Hag just said. I think Fred and Garner will do a good enough job in that nr.6. But for Ten Hag "good is not good enough". I agree with that. The level shall be closest to Pirlo, Busquets, Carrick or Rodri is doing for City. And Fred and Garner at this moment is not on the top level as nr.6. Clearly.
Reason why i think Ten Hag shall get a new nr.6. With external solution.
And with external solution there are 2 nr.6 i think meets those expectations of level. Those 2 are Aurélien Tchouaméni and Manuel Locatelli.
+ And for the new top creative nr.8. I am still searching and still havent come to the last decision who i should go for yet. Jude Bellingham is one of the option. But i m still looking for another options.
+ And for RW. There are 2 options with a 3 rd alternative. First Antony who has been linked with United. Then another really good RW in Raphinha. Then the third option is Leverkusen and France RW Diaby.
So now how to line up those options in each position. In Ten Hag most use formation 433.
RB - Varane/Timber - Martinez - LB
Raphinha/Antony - RCM = Bellingham? - CDM Tchouaméni/Locatelli - Bruno - Rashford/Sancho
CF: Rashford/Ronaldo/Nunez
There you have. 433 turn out to be a 451 without the ball and in the defensive. RW and LW track back to help the fullbacks. Become a 5 men midfield. Make 433 and total compact, tight and hard to break down. But still have super fast and skill full wingers always ready to counter attack or good enough to beat defenders against establish defenders.
So conclusion. Those are mine suggest and recommendations. But if Ten Hag is having his own targets and options he shall go for. But from mine scouting and formation analizing. Those players i have mentioned are best and from United realistic can get and buy from.
From a freelance scout and United external consultant
Then they can find themselves a new club.
The top 4 race will be harder than ever next season with Spurs looking like they will be backing Conte and Arsenal/Chelsea likely improving as well. If Conte is backed, I have a feeling he will go all out to win it next season. Would leave Arsenal, Chelsea and us battling it out for the 4th place. Unless Liverpool or City have a major collapse, which I honestly don’t see happening.
It will be a tough level of PL for ETH to walk into next season. And given our rebuild, I wouldn‘t be surprised if we don’t make top 4 again. As long as we are making progress, I hope the fans and the club see the rebuild through. Easier said than done of course. I think Pep was struggling to make top 4 in his first season too, and that too with an arguably weaker league at the time.
It will be a tough level of PL for ETH to walk into next season. And given our rebuild, I wouldn‘t be surprised if we don’t make top 4 again. As long as we are making progress, I hope the fans and the club see the rebuild through. Easier said than done of course. I think Pep was struggling to make top 4 in his first season too, and that too with an arguably weaker league at the time.
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