[A-man]

So? That's not the argument isn't it.

Every CB whether they are world class like Rio & Vidic, they can make mistakes in the match and some like Lindelof, Maguire, Bailly can make mistakes and have weaknesses. And when they make mistakes, you need someone to cover them. Bailly & Maguire compliment each other to cover each other mistakes & weaknesses which shown in the match against Sociedad.

On the other hand, if one of Maguire or Lindelof make mistakes, either one of them will struggle to cover each other mistakes because they are both similar passive centre back with similar weaknesses. Prime example that I remember was this goal.

I agree Lindelof failed to cover for Maguire in last season’s game against Spurs. Obviously that happens, but it’s not representative as we have not conceded many goals like that. If we look at this seasons game against Spurs, it wouldn’t look so much better for Bailly and Maguire imo.

You are completely fooling yourself if you genuinely think Lindelof and Maguire are a good pairing of centre backs. Every person in football who knows the game can clearly see they aren’t great together. Stats and results can be thrown around all you like, you just need to use your eyes and know the game to see they are a big weakness in the team. We play 2 defensive minded midfielders in front of them nearly every game and they still look at sea too often.

We have scored the most goals in the PL so can’t really agree with play a very defensive setup. Against the top team, yes, but not the big bulk of matches.
Edit: most matches we play with only 2 midfielders as Bruno is more in a forward role. The protection from this thin midfield has been good in some matches, but failed in others (3-3 Everton as example).

And you keep touting Lindelof's performances like he's a major reason of why we are defensively solid against big teams. Not the fact that we cede the majority of possession, play two defensive monster midfielders to shield the centre of the pitch and have 2 defensive monsters full backs. Our penalty box/area is tactically set up so that it has the most amount of protection for the full 90mins.

Has he performed well and deserves praise for those games? Yes, absolutely. Do we have to pretend that he's irreplaceable and be satisfied when anybody, who questions this is met with 'Lindelof has done xyz, therefore all the evidence points to the fact that he is flawless within that context'? No.

Against teams where we need to pinch the space and be on the front foot but not performed, we can absolutely blame the disjointed attack and perhaps to an extent midfield. However, let's not try to deflect the job of the individual centre backs. In Maguire, we have someone, who likes to attack the ball, carry it forward, be aggressive on the defensive and offensive; of course we also see his flaws and the mistakes he's made.

Do we need someone, who can cover/compliment this and also be of an individual quality. Yes. Does Lindelof fit the former? Very loosely if you want to be generous (e.g retreating and not engaging regardless of whether it's Mbappe or Diagne is not a 'consistency' to be praising) but he is certainly not the latter.

Is Bailly the answer? Who knows. He hasn't been fit enough to really judge that. But let's stop touting that Lindelof is a fundamentally sound and all around solid defender when he is not. He's not easily replaceable in the context of the Utd squad because by default no one's been fit or stepped up but he is as average a defender as it gets in the premier league. Out of the back four, Maguire, Shaw and AWB are easily a level or two above in defensive (effectivness) and all around general team play. They would be performing whether it was Bailly, Smalling or someone else. Lindelof does very little to elevate their performances.

One of the many general themes people talk about is 'playing the high line' with Bailly. What people mean is that very naturally Bailly will be higher up the pitch because he has that ability to do that and with it comes the risk/rewards. Of course when you actually look at it, Ole doesn't really actively coach or set the team to play this way. That's not evidence to say that 'we don't play this way and therefore it's not conductive to how we should play because we've been successful with our super defensive performances against teams where we set up to counter attack'.

The truth is that we should be doing these actions anyways but Lindelof simply does not excel or engage in. We will rarely play a high line or be in an aggressive position in those situations with Lindelof because he's just not comfortable or able to do without overexposing himself. Smart because he knows his limitations but it is also one less option/weapon e.g just like AWB being poor on the ball and getting pressed i.e it negatively affects our ability to be on the front foot. It's not 'consistent' defending or 'good reading of the game'. It's extremely basic and we need to stop elevating this.

The thing is we don’t haven’t played a higher line with Bailly. Last game we tried at first, but it didn’t work so we sat back. Speed is good but is only going to help you a little bit. Playing a high line with the defensive strategy that a fast CB should chase forwards is not good. It will be an extra bad strategy if you have a players like our midfield who lose the possession a lot.

@A-man I see you're in here defending Bailly with the same vigour you do your countryman Lindelof.

Pathetic stuff.

If you disagree with anything I’ve written it’s better you discuss that, argue etc. I can repeat; I thought he had a very bad first half but on second. If you disagree, it wouldn’t be so hard to discuss, would it?

 

[TsuWave]

You being Lindelof’s compatriot makes so much make sense

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You being Lindelof’s compatriot makes so much make sense

Does it? Most Swede’s think he’s a bit shit and preferred Granqvist ffs
I think A-man is the first Swede I know who rates him.

 

[A-man]

Writing stuff like a 12 year old but using emojis like an 80 year old is an unfortunate combination.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

You complained Maguire “passed too slow” in our 9-0 demolition of Southampton, and complained he wasn’t involved in the goals.
Twas at that point I decided all you really deserve is emojis, you’ll complain about anyone and anything to try painting Lindelöf in a better light. It fecking tedious.

Granqvist won the golden ball in 2017, so little do these Swedes think of his passive partner. Andreas Granqvist ffs.

 

[A-man]

You complained Maguire “passed too slow” in our 9-0 demolition of Southampton, and complained he wasn’t involved in the goals.
Twas at that point I decided all you really deserve is emojis, you’ll complain about anyone and anything to try painting Lindelöf in a better light. It fecking tedious.

Granqvist won the golden ball in 2017, so little do these Swedes think of his passive partner. Andreas Granqvist ffs.

Complained about Maguire? I wrote:
Did his job defensively. I like that he tries to find through balls when we pass around the extremely low Soton defence, but sometimes all we need is speed and then he is stalling it too much. Just a detail. Overall he was good, 7/10 from me.

I wrote that he is sometimes stalling our quick passing in possession. That’s all you need to make up your mind about someone? You think that is controversial? You must be the most sensitive person on the planet.

Granqvist had some amazing years for his national team but it was still a bit controversial when he won the golden ball 2017. After that Victo won it 2018 and 2019 so not really sure what you’re trying to prove here?

 

[Chief123]

I agree Lindelof failed to cover for Maguire in last season’s game against Spurs. Obviously that happens, but it’s not representative as we have not conceded many goals like that. If we look at this seasons game against Spurs, it wouldn’t look so much better for Bailly and Maguire imo.


We have scored the most goals in the PL so can’t really agree with play a very defensive setup. Against the top team, yes, but not the big bulk of matches.
Edit: most matches we play with only 2 midfielders as Bruno is more in a forward role. The protection from this thin midfield has been good in some matches, but failed in others (3-3 Everton as example).



The thing is we don’t haven’t played a higher line with Bailly. Last game we tried at first, but it didn’t work so we sat back. Speed is good but is only going to help you a little bit. Playing a high line with the defensive strategy that a fast CB should chase forwards is not good. It will be an extra bad strategy if you have a players like our midfield who lose the possession a lot.



If you disagree with anything I’ve written it’s better you discuss that, argue etc. I can repeat; I thought he had a very bad first half but on second. If you disagree, it wouldn’t be so hard to discuss, would it?

Mate you are beating around the bush a lot.

Simple question. Do you believe Lindelof and Maguire are good enough as a partnership for Utd to succeed and challenge for titles going forward?

 

[A-man]

Mate you are beating around the bush a lot.

Simple question. Do you believe Lindelof and Maguire are good enough as a partnership for Utd to succeed and challenge for titles going forward?

That is a hypothetical and rather pointless question that no one can answer as it hardly depends on one player, nor one partnership.
We won the PL with a defence conceding more goals than Lindelof /Maguire last time we won the PL.

In the end I don’t see any team challenging for the title this season except City. And I am one of those who don’t think that will change just because we would play Bailly.

 

[Chief123]

That is a hypothetical and rather pointless question that no one can answer as it hardly depends on one player, nor one partnership.
We won the PL with a defence conceding more goals than Lindelof /Maguire last time we won the PL.

In the end I don’t see any team challenging for the title this season except City. And I am one of those who don’t think that will change just because we would play Bailly.

What a terrible answer. How is it a pointless question? It’s a perfectly valid question which you don’t seem to want to answer.

Based on your response we can’t ever ask a question about any player or partnership on whether they are good enough to succeed? What a bizarre way of avoiding a question.

I think your denial explains a lot about your strange stance and defence of Lindelof and Maguire.

 

[H10]

I really hope he starts today. How can you not enjoy watching this crazy guy play?

 

[calodo2003]

I really hope he starts today. How can you not enjoy watching this crazy guy play?

That could be the first time I ever heard Valencia speak in English.

 

[H10]

That could be the first time I ever heard Valencia speak in English.

Me too

 

[A-man]

What a terrible answer. How is it a pointless question? It’s a perfectly valid question which you don’t seem to want to answer.

Based on your response we can’t ever ask a question about any player or partnership on whether they are good enough to succeed? What a bizarre way of avoiding a question.

I think your denial explains a lot about your strange stance and defence of Lindelof and Maguire.

It’s a pointless and, no offence, a little childish question. The only possible answer is obviously Yes, we can win PL with Lindelof/Maguire. That doesn’t mean I think we will win the PL. We have won with worse defence result and we have had season where we didn’t win but had better defence.

You can try yourself;

Can we win the PL with:
Greenwood?
Fred/McTominay?
David de Gea?

Would be interesting to hear your answers

 

[criticalanalysis]

The thing is we don’t haven’t played a higher line with Bailly. Last game we tried at first, but it didn’t work so we sat back. Speed is good but is only going to help you a little bit. Playing a high line with the defensive strategy that a fast CB should chase forwards is not good. It will be an extra bad strategy if you have a players like our midfield who lose the possession a lot.

Out of my whole post, this is what you decided to highlight? It's also something I pretty much explained already. I said Bailly and his individual quality allows us to be higher up the pitch in moments and be on the front foot. We don't strictly play 'possession football' but you can be sure when Pogba is on the pitch, it's definitely a more likely chance than if we had McT on.

A fast CB should not be chasing forwards on the back foot, because that means a mistake is made. A fast CB should be allowing us to push, chase and cover with speed, not retreating 5, 10, 15, 20 yards into our own half as if we're playing peak CIty/Liverpool/Barca every game.

Lindelof does not push himself or have that individual ability. Him being a part of our defensive performances this season is not an indication that we can't continue to have good defensive performances with someone else. Neither does it mean we can't improve our game progressively from the back and be more proactive on the front foot by 'sacrificing' Lindelof's Maldini/Rio/Nesta all around, amazing, elite, high, level reading of the game and containment (if you haven't noticed, this is pure sarcasm because he possesses nothing of the such). That person doesn't have to be Bailly but the answer is definitely not Lindelof, a defender that doesn't register as a net positive or a net negative, just simply a placeholder.

It's harsh because he has given us 'consistency' but he is easily one of 2-3 most dispensables players in the team, if we're actually looking to improve (even by replacing within our own squad).

 

[A-man]

Out of my whole post, this is what you decided to highlight? It's also something I pretty much explained already. I said Bailly and his individual quality allows us to be higher up the pitch in moments and be on the front foot. We don't strictly play 'possession football' but you can be sure when Pogba is on the pitch, it's definitely a more likely chance than if we had McT on.

A fast CB should not be chasing forwards on the back foot, because that means a mistake is made. A fast CB should be allowing us to push, chase and cover with speed, not retreating 5, 10, 15, 20 yards into our own half as if we're playing peak CIty/Liverpool/Barca every game.

Lindelof does not push himself or have that individual ability. Him being a part of our defensive performances this season is not an indication that we can't continue to have good defensive performances with someone else. Neither does it mean we can't improve our game progressively from the back and be more proactive on the front foot by 'sacrificing' Lindelof's Maldini/Rio/Nesta all around, amazing, elite, high, level reading of the game and containment (if you haven't noticed, this is pure sarcasm because he possesses nothing of the such). That person doesn't have to be Bailly but the answer is definitely not Lindelof, a defender that doesn't register as a net positive or a net negative, just simply a placeholder.

It's harsh because he has given us 'consistency' but he is easily one of 2-3 most dispensables players in the team, if we're actually looking to improve (even by replacing within our own squad).

I’ve answered most of this many times before, not sure what you want me to comment.
1. I don’t agree that the purpose with football is highest possible line. It’s about a balance. I am also not sure a dominant possession based football with a high line is optimal with Bruno b
2. I don’t see speed as one of the most important abilities for a good CB. Other qualities are more important.
3. I don’t think relying on speed is a good way of defending.
4. In our cleans sheets against the top teams Lindelof has performers very well.
5. Bailly is a player who should be used to push forward, not cover. Just like Maguire, and that’s why they don’t fit well together and haven’t performed well against the better teams.

 

[H10]

I really hope he starts today. How can you not enjoy watching this crazy guy play?

Ahh...don't get why Bailly can't get a run of games. Nevermind, need to wait a bit more for some crazy videos.

 

[criticalanalysis]

I’ve answered most of this many times before, not sure what you want me to comment.
1. I don’t agree that the purpose with football is highest possible line. It’s about a balance. I am also not sure a dominant possession based football with a high line is optimal with Bruno b
2. I don’t see speed as one of the most important abilities for a good CB. Other qualities are more important.
3. I don’t think relying on speed is a good way of defending.
4. In our cleans sheets against the top teams Lindelof has performers very well.
5. Bailly is a player who should be used to push forward, not cover. Just like Maguire, and that’s why they don’t fit well together and haven’t performed well against the better teams.

1) Of course it's a balance, nobody is arguing otherwise. The criticism is that Lindelof has one debatable quality of the balance i.e covering and containment and offers absolutely nothing of the other, which is being able to play on his own, pushing up and being proactive against attackers before it reaches deep into our own half.
2) Of course as a single quality it's not 'important'. However, all players regardless of position require speed of thought and speed of action. Lindelof has his feet firmly rooted on the spot figuratively and literally speaking when it comes to this.
3) Nobody is talking about 'relying', rather than it's a very effective quality if paired with good reading of the game.
4) Yes Lindelof performs when the team is set up to defend, protected by 4 defensive monsters. It's also games where De Gea also performs well. In other games, where it opens up and we expect more individual quality, we clearly see this lacking from De Gea i.e no box presence and likewise this is also true of Lindelof i.e little effective presence outside the penalty box.
5) Again, let's first reiterate Bailly may not be the answer or is flaweless. That said, you're looking at this wrong. Bailly's is potentially a better balance for Maguire as both possess qualities that don't neccessarily need to be overcompensated by the other. They are both comfortable pushing up, bringing the ball out and being proactive with and without the ball. Lindelof can only 'excel' as the passive defender and the one comfortable sat outside his penalty. In open space, he contains by retreating. You may be right in that they don't match but for you to definitively state it when we've seen so little from them is incredibly harsh. Conversely, we're seen a lot of Lindelof to know his 'balance' with Maguire is very loop sided.

All in all, you're making valid points againt issues that nobody has raised (I think they call this a strawman argument) and you can't accept any criticism of Lindelof's fundamental ability despite him not being outstanding in any form or shape.

I hate to reduce it to a one liner, yet as many many others have said before and will continue to say, the defence and mental gymnastics of such an average player is astoundingly mind numbing.

 

[A-man]

1) Of course it's a balance, nobody is arguing otherwise. The criticism is that Lindelof has one debatable quality of the balance i.e covering and containment and offers absolutely nothing of the other, which is being able to play on his own, pushing up and being proactive against attackers before it reaches deep into our own half.
2) Of course as a single quality it's not 'important'. However, all players regardless of position require speed of thought and speed of action. Lindelof has his feet firmly rooted on the spot figuratively and literally speaking when it comes to this.
3) Nobody is talking about 'relying', rather than it's a very effective quality if paired with good reading of the game.
4) Yes Lindelof performs when the team is set up to defend, protected by 4 defensive monsters. It's also games where De Gea also performs well. In other games, where it opens up and we expect more individual quality, we clearly see this lacking from De Gea i.e no box presence and likewise this is also true of Lindelof i.e little effective presence outside the penalty box.
5) Again, let's first reiterate Bailly may not be the answer or is flaweless. That said, you're looking at this wrong. Bailly's is potentially a better balance for Maguire as both possess qualities that don't neccessarily need to be overcompensated by the other. They are both comfortable pushing up, bringing the ball out and being proactive with and without the ball. Lindelof can only 'excel' as the passive defender and the one comfortable sat outside his penalty. In open space, he contains by retreating. You may be right in that they don't match but for you to definitively state it when we've seen so little from them is incredibly harsh. Conversely, we're seen a lot of Lindelof to know his 'balance' with Maguire is very loop sided.

All in all, you're making valid points againt issues that nobody has raised (I think they call this a strawman argument) and you can't accept any criticism of Lindelof's fundamental ability despite him not being outstanding in any form or shape.

I hate to reduce it to a one liner, yet as many many others have said before and will continue to say, the defence and mental gymnastics of such an average player is astoundingly mind numbing.

It’s a balance but yet a lot of people assume we need to play a higher line. We have scored 43 goals in 18 matches with Lindelof and Maguire, there is no indication we need to play a higher line. I seriously don’t think it’s a good idea with our midfield either.
You are talking about Lindelof being surrounded by defensive monsters in those matches, in a way to take away any credit from him. Thing is, he’s been one of our best players in those matches.

His role is to be last man. Maguires role is to push and win headers. He also has the role to always be available for a pass, most of the time as last man in the centre.

 

[Ekeke]

When he plays like that he's arguably our best CB.

I still remember earlier in the season posters complaining at the suggestion that he needs games so we can see what his current level is and whether he'll be useful to us going forward

 

[FrankDrebin]

Most entertaining player of the night.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Thought he was brilliant tonight with Lindelof. Worked well as a pair.

 

[Hester_manc]

He has the highest top level of all our center-backs. Unfortunately, he sometimes loses his head and he is quite unstable. So you can not always count on him. Today he was the best United player in my eyes.

 

[talking robot]

Class. Needs to be promoted to first choice alongside Maguire in the league.

 

[Sylar]

Thought he was brilliant tonight with Lindelof. Worked well as a pair.

I'm thinking lindelof and Maguire are too similar to be partners and one of them needs bailly?

 

[Van Piorsing]

Superb pass to Bruno, could be a stunner.

 

[ivaldo]

Looked like he enjoyed playing next to Lindelof and vice versa.

 

[Ekeke]

Looked like he enjoyed playing next to Lindelof and vice versa.

Think it was more a case of enjoying playing. He hasnt had too many oppertunities to do that the past 2 or 3 seasons

 

[ivaldo]

Think it was more a case of enjoying playing. He hasnt had too many oppertunities to do that the past 2 or 3 seasons

You really can't help yourself can you?

 

[MetoTTT]

What a shame he can't stay fit. Gutted really. I adore the guy. Lindelof and Maguire are looking good when playing with Eric.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Spanish teams play very different football to those in the Prem so they weren't tested in the air but overal good game from the CBs. Happy for HM to get some rest. He's played nonstop since he came here.

 

[Rossa]

The way he just outpaced Isak for a chance created with a pass in behind in the first half is something Lindelof and Maguire would’ve struggled to deal with. With Bailly, they seemed to give up. His athleticism makes attackers uncertain, and that makes such a difference.

 

[Sylar]

The way he just outpaced Isak for a chance created with a pass in behind in the first half is something Lindelof and Maguire would’ve struggled to deal with. With Bailly, they seemed to give up. His athleticism makes attackers uncertain, and that makes such a difference.

I did notice a few times when bailly came across the press from Sociedad kinda stopped or they did give up on a few occasions where he came to cover

 

[Rossa]

I did notice a few times when bailly came across the press from Sociedad kinda stopped or they did give up on a few occasions where he came to cover

Stamp your authority, and boy is he a cocky defender. Love it! Isak had a chance to take him on one on one at one point down the channel, and he never even hinted at trying.

 

[Devil may care]

Both of Maglof look better with him hext to them, his presence, agility and speed add assurance to the partnership.

 

[Borys]

It's very common when the main defender gets dropped/rested, the rest of back 4 loses grip. It doesn't seem our backline is affected if either Lindelof or Maguire is out, which is good. And they both look better beside Bailly.

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

Bailly and Maguire the top CB pair for me. Victor and Axel on standby. Shame Bailly’s injury record has been so poor at United.

 

[Caesar2290]

Bailly is the best CB at the club right now for the simple reason that he can pair both Lindelof and Maguire and look competent with each of them next to him. Now if only he could stay fit our defensive worries would mostly be sorted.

 

[Shane88]

The routine covering he did for Lindelof at 31 minutes is a 1-on-1 if it's Maguire and Lindelof.

Pace is so fecking important for centre backs now.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

His passing/ability on the ball is so underrated. And it's not related to being able to play some Scholes-esque balls to the wings. He hits passes with pace and plays it to the correct side of the attackers, which people really underrate in helping attacks. When a player has to stop his momentum to receive a pass, it can kill the flow of an attack.

 

[Jaxa]

I love this guy, i love his personality, his audacity, his confidence, he's a madman and an entertainer and not too bad at the defending part too,

If Eric wasn't made of glass he is world class and get's in to most teams starting 11.