It wasn’t two CBs covering for each other. It was Harry covering for Bailly.
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Not exactly what I had in mind. But I'll take it
Like what others mentioned. Bailly pace managed to slow down Isak and this helps Harry to come back in time and made an important tackle. Both will not be perfect but they both can cover each other because they compliment each other weaknesses.
Bailly misread the whole situation, when he totally missed the tackle/interception,that’s how it all started.
Bailly has had a few good matches but this was not really one of them. At least not by my standards.
Misread situation can happen and is part of him being erratic sometimes that can be covered by Maguire who is more calm and able to read the situation better if there is someone that can slow down the opposition player which is Bailly. Without Bailly’s pace, we would be bullied by Isak and others like how DCL & Richarlison bullied us. Both covered each other weaknesses in that match which is the reason why we were able to keep clean sheet and being solid at the back.
Isak is good but there’s no risk he’d bully us in that sense. He is speedy and we could see how Bailly struggled with his pace. With a player like Isak, you must shut him down or anticipate his runs. Bailly had a very bad first half but got back and was totally ok in the second. It’s not the end of the world.
Can we not cut the man a little bit of slack for those first 10 minutes on account of being rusty?
We’ve all seen Lindelof and many other CBs have a mare after returning from injury.
We’ve all seen Lindelof and many other CBs have a mare after returning from injury.
One or two mistakes can happen in the game even when we were with Rio and Vidic against nobody. What matters is how those two can work as a pair, and that’s why we kept clean sheet against 5th in La Liga because both Bailly & Maguire have strength to cover each other weaknesses. Keeping a clean sheet and only conceded 2 shots on target is not the same as being bullied, conceded 3 goals is more similar to being bullied.It's crazy to say but Bailly could hold the key to the remainder of our season
he had a shaky start back from injury the other night but settled. His pace and power alongside Maguire makes us so much more solid.
The team is much more effective with him in it
Would love to see Bailly and Henderson start the next series of league games
he had a shaky start back from injury the other night but settled. His pace and power alongside Maguire makes us so much more solid.
The team is much more effective with him in it
Would love to see Bailly and Henderson start the next series of league games
Agreed, our defence looks better with Bailly alongside Maguire
Maybe we mean different things with “bullied”
For me it is more of an attacker constantly use his muscular power to move or get ÅF Anaya he’s against the opponent. One example of this is Zlatan who has bullied most defenders including some of the best in the world.
I thought it looked bad when we tried to play a high line, Isak ran through too easy. Second half when we sat back and went for counters the whole team defended better.
@BenitoSTARR you talk like only Lindelof is capable of defending by containing 
Bailly does that plenty too, he just prefers to be aggressive and attack in certain situations rather than drop off and never engage. That’s the difference.
I much prefer a defender in that style, the thing is for lindelofs style he’s hardly a lot safer either? Maybe a better option when we are planning to sit back and hold a tight defensive line but that isn’t the way we should be aiming for.
Bailly does that plenty too, he just prefers to be aggressive and attack in certain situations rather than drop off and never engage. That’s the difference.I much prefer a defender in that style, the thing is for lindelofs style he’s hardly a lot safer either? Maybe a better option when we are planning to sit back and hold a tight defensive line but that isn’t the way we should be aiming for.
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I’ve never once said that but he does a far better job of that than Bailly who as you say is more aggressive.@BenitoSTARR you talk like only Lindelof is capable of defending by containing
I much prefer a defender in that style, the thing is for lindelofs style he’s hardly a lot safer either? Maybe a better option when we are planning to sit back and hold a tight defensive line but that isn’t the way we should be aiming for.
You’re also implying Lindelof never engages which is bollocks. I cannot take you seriously if you cannot refrain from exaggerating.
I have no issue with people preferring one over the other and there are absolutely games where I would rather we play Bailly over Lindelof and vice versa.
Honestly the only reason I pipe up to defend Lindelof is when absolute rubbish or exaggeration comes into play. He’s not world class but he’s still a very good CB just not the perfect partner to Maguire but neither is Bailly.
I know the usual preference is to have a settled backline, which is probably why Ole favours Lindelof mostly as he's the one more likely to stay fit and build upon his understanding with the other CB partner. The partnership is wrong though.
However, I'd personally prefer if we used Bailly for games where we expect to dominate possession and play a high line, and Lindelof in games where we don't.
One thing I love about Bailly is his ability on the ball, we don't struggle to beat the press when he plays.
However, I'd personally prefer if we used Bailly for games where we expect to dominate possession and play a high line, and Lindelof in games where we don't.
One thing I love about Bailly is his ability on the ball, we don't struggle to beat the press when he plays.
Maybe we mean different things with “bullied”
For me it is more of an attacker constantly use his muscular power to move or get ÅF Anaya he’s against the opponent. One example of this is Zlatan who has bullied most defenders including some of the best in the world.
I thought it looked bad when we tried to play a high line, Isak ran through too easy. Second half when we sat back and went for counters the whole team defended better.
Why does it even matter whatever the definition of bullied. We kept a clean sheet and only conceded 2 shots, that’s what matters and it shows we dealt their attack very well. High line always have risk and we dealt the risk because we had Bailly and Maguire as pair, two players that can cover each other weaknesses.
We tried to play a high line first half, but we struggled too much with their speedy attacks. In a high line you don’t want to end up chasing forwards like Bailly did, you need to be proactive and either anticipate their runs or win back the ball high up. Ole adjusted and abandoned the high line, and when we sat back we defended better.
If you know this why are you forcing the issue? The man has been out for weeks so a few early errors are understandable and should not be used as a stick to beta him with. That you know this and persist with the argument means you are being irrational.
The amount of Bailly fans is staggering.
Yes, he has a high ceiling, but he is also very prone to errors. For me thats the worst kind of defenders. You can't really trust them
And he is also way to much injured to even be considered first choice. I think thats why lindelof plays, because he can atleast form a partnership that last for 4 games without being away for a month.
But that being said, Bailly should be sold on the injuries alone and Lindelof should be a backup option. We will never win anything with those two playing this much
Yes, he has a high ceiling, but he is also very prone to errors. For me thats the worst kind of defenders. You can't really trust them
And he is also way to much injured to even be considered first choice. I think thats why lindelof plays, because he can atleast form a partnership that last for 4 games without being away for a month.
But that being said, Bailly should be sold on the injuries alone and Lindelof should be a backup option. We will never win anything with those two playing this much
I disagree but appreciate the discussion. I would actually like to see Bailly-Lindelof in certain games but who knows.
I do not believe, as Pep is proving, that you have to have a set 2 CB in the modern game. It's about picking the right players for the right games.
What games would Lindelof-Bailly be suited to?
I think Maguire and Lindelof suit certain games, as do Bailly and Maguire.
The Real Sociedad argument I would agree with for the first 10 but not 30.
Lindelof-Maguire always look unsure when pressure is applied on the counter with quick transitions.
So people really think he made a big error with the Isak situation? Isak is in really good form atm and Eric slowed him down enough for Harry to make the tackle. He perhaps should have done better initially but he and maguire did good there.
Let's give the man a chance. He is different from Lindelof. Both make mistakes. If Bailly can keep his head and not switch off, he can be a much better player.
Playing high line means playing higher risk to get exposed defensively, it's normal to see opposition team will likely to take advantage of it which they did and we still dealt it very well because both Bailly & Maguire can cover each other weaknesses. We played high line even in the early second half, once we scored the second goals doesn't mean we have reason to take the risk to keep playing the high line.
Bailly and Lindelof could be suited versus any team that play fast football on the ground. We played good defence against PSG away with Axel, Lindelof and Shaw as CBs as an example.
To my best knowledge, we haven’t conceded any goals on counters in the PL this season, and it’s not an area we need to focus on when looking for improvements.
I wouldn’t call second half a high line. Just like many other games, the offensive players pressed high up but we didn’t keep at high back line. The adjustment came because we struggled with their speed and after 1-0 there was no need to take this risk ( lessons learned from Everton where we kept playing too high up after 2-0 and got punished).Playing high line means playing higher risk to get exposed defensively, it's normal to see opposition team will likely to take advantage of it which they did and we still dealt it very well because both Bailly & Maguire can cover each other weaknesses. We played high line even in the early second half, once we scored the second goals doesn't mean we have reason to take the risk to keep playing the high line.
I too have thought about wether Lindelöf-Bailly can work, as Lindelöf can compensate for Baillys positional forgetfulness, and is quicker than Maguire. Previously it hasn’t looked so good because Lindelöf seemed to get nervous by Bailly’s unpredictability, and so too passive. And Harry does offer something extra in the air.
I think relations matter less to Pep than to Ole, while his players are more guided/restricted by predetermined playing patterns. But I see your point.
If youwere to see the Sociedad game anew, I’d point you to follow the back four for the entire first half - who is in position, out of position, follows the colleagues, compensate for their partners. The entire back four looked disjointed many times, and to me it looked like Bailly was the odd man out too many times. This coyld well be lack of continuous game time, mind.
He was and why it also struck me was I remember the goal AWB was involved in and Ole categorically saying that we don't play the offside trap and Bailly trying to do that against RS. He was looking along the line and trying to step up. Bailly is a very good player individually. But his teamwork seems to be a lot less than that of Lindelof. Also I love the comedy factor that Bailly could bring. He is so entertaining.
I mean even asking Cavani to do his celebration. Only Bailly could do that so seriously. He is very athletic too.
Again, we were still playing high line before we scored the 2nd goal in second half as shown in the pictures. We got punished vs Everton because both Lindelof & Maguire don‘t have the strength/ability to cover each other weaknesses. Lindelof Maguire is different to Bailly Maguire.
I’m sorry but a still or two is not really representative for a match.
Everton. It has nothing do with covering each other’s weaknesses. If you think that, you didn’t watch the match. Which of the three goals happened because they didn’t cover for each others weaknesses? None. First half was one of the best we’ve played this season, second half it fell part. Defence was poor, and defending midfield 100% absent. Mostly it was a tactical disaster. Nothing to do with “not covering each others weaknesses”. In general Lindelof /Maguire have more discipline and ability to execute according to tactics, and that is why they are always chosen for the bigger games where we need to work as a unit.
It’s a funny coincidence that the only times we seem to struggle with speed, is when our speedy CBs are playing. I personally believe that is because they were used to compensate for their deficiencies and mistakes with good recovery speed, but that is only possible up to a certain level.
None?
Maguire was skinned out by DCL pace in that first goal, did someone cover his pace? None.Ancelotti realised how slow both of our centre back after the first half, so he took advantage of it in the second half and not just the first goal, you could see many times both DCL & Richarlison gave us so much problem exposing Maguire & Lindelof in that full 45 minutes of the second half and here you are bitching about Bailly sloppiness in only the first 5 minutes due to miss control of the pass and another mistake after we scored the first goal which Bailly was able to recover with his pace and allowed Maguire to make the tackle. When Maguire and Lindelof were being exposed, neither can cover each other. Those two are just too similar with same weaknesses, two of passive centre backs with no recovery pace.
For their first goal, AWB was all the way up the pitch(despite we were in a 2-0 lead, tactical super mistake) and Lindelof had to cover for him. There is no chance on earth that he would be able to cover for Maguire as well, even if he was the fastest man on earth.None?
Ancelotti realised how slow both of our centre back after the first half, so he took advantage of it in the second half and not just the first goal, you could see many times both DCL & Richarlison gave us so much problem exposing Maguire & Lindelof in that full 45 minutes of the second half and here you are bitching about Bailly sloppiness in only the first 5 minutes due to miss control of the pass and another mistake after we scored the first goal which Bailly was able to recover with his pace and allowed Maguire to make the tackle. When Maguire and Lindelof were being exposed, neither can cover each other. Those two are just too similar with same weaknesses, two of passive centre backs with no recovery pace.
I’ve never said we were good in second half vs Everton. I personally think the whole defence 4-5 /10 in second half. But it was never about failing to cover for each other.
I have no interest in continuing with this pointless discussion. You think Bailly had an amazing match and I think he had a horrible first half and an ok second. I’m just not as easily impressed as you and have higher expectations.Fine like that.
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And what makes you think if Lindelof has recovery pace, he wouldn’t position himself closer to Maguire? Because with recovery pace, he could cover the distance with Richarlison (I believe it was him) and also the distance with Maguire. Ancelotti knew the problem of our centre back after the first half and that’s why in second half they stretched out our centre backs to create more space to expose both our centre back. Two of passive centre backs with no recovery pace playing together is always disaster.
You are arguing for no reason when I haven’t say one thing about Bailly had an amazing match, quote me on it.
What I said was the reason we were able to keep clean sheet vs Sociedad in that night was because we have two centre backs who compliment each other weaknesses. Both will not be perfect all the time but they both can cover each other.
As others have written, the back line looked disjointed. We got a clean sheet but didn’t look solid until we sat back.
We only conceded 2 shots on target and conceded no goal because we have two centre backs who can cover each other weaknesses & mistakes. Not a match where an opposition manager decides to expose two pair of passive centre back with same weaknesses and unable to cover each other weaknesses/mistakes.
You seem stuck on the misunderstanding that they were covering for each other at some new level never seen in the world of football before. Maguire covered for Baillys mistakes and weaknesses, yes. Attempts were 8-13 so it’s not like it was the perfect game as you try to make out.
Anyways. Let’s leave it like this. You are happy with what you saw and I’m not.
They can have as many attempted but it’s pointless if those shots were not good enough to score goals due to being forced by defensive recovery. 0.42 xG is low quality for those attempts, resulted in no goals and only conceded 2 shots on target. A prime example in that match was when Bailly made the mistake and he was able to recover with pace to allowed Maguire made the last ditch of tackle. When Maguire & Lindelof played together, neither would be able to make the recovery tackle to cover each other mistakes, Maguire would be crucified for costing 80m and unable to make the best out of his parther Lindelof.
Lindelof and Maguire have kept several clean sheets together, against good teams like City. You try to make this something exceptional.
Lindelof and Maguire have played most games in the PL together. We haven’t conceded a single counter goal, and that’s without the need to chase forwards all the time.
@A-man I see you're in here defending Bailly with the same vigour you do your countryman Lindelof.
Pathetic stuff.
Pathetic stuff.
So? That's not the argument isn't it.
Every CB whether they are world class like Rio & Vidic, they can make mistakes in the match and some like Lindelof, Maguire, Bailly can make mistakes and have weaknesses. And when they make mistakes, you need someone to cover them. Bailly & Maguire compliment each other to cover each other mistakes & weaknesses which shown in the match against Sociedad.
On the other hand, if one of Maguire or Lindelof make mistakes, either one of them will struggle to cover each other mistakes because they are both similar passive centre back with similar weaknesses. Prime example that I remember was this goal.
You are completely fooling yourself if you genuinely think Lindelof and Maguire are a good pairing of centre backs. Every person in football who knows the game can clearly see they aren’t great together. Stats and results can be thrown around all you like, you just need to use your eyes and know the game to see they are a big weakness in the team. We play 2 defensive minded midfielders in front of them nearly every game and they still look at sea too often.
And you keep touting Lindelof's performances like he's a major reason of why we are defensively solid against big teams. Not the fact that we cede the majority of possession, play two defensive monster midfielders to shield the centre of the pitch and have 2 defensive monsters full backs. Our penalty box/area is tactically set up so that it has the most amount of protection for the full 90mins.
Has he performed well and deserves praise for those games? Yes, absolutely. Do we have to pretend that he's irreplaceable and be satisfied when anybody, who questions this is met with 'Lindelof has done xyz, therefore all the evidence points to the fact that he is flawless within that context'? No.
Against teams where we need to pinch the space and be on the front foot but not performed, we can absolutely blame the disjointed attack and perhaps to an extent midfield. However, let's not try to deflect the job of the individual centre backs. In Maguire, we have someone, who likes to attack the ball, carry it forward, be aggressive on the defensive and offensive; of course we also see his flaws and the mistakes he's made.
Do we need someone, who can cover/compliment this and also be of an individual quality. Yes. Does Lindelof fit the former? Very loosely if you want to be generous (e.g retreating and not engaging regardless of whether it's Mbappe or Diagne is not a 'consistency' to be praising) but he is certainly not the latter.
Is Bailly the answer? Who knows. He hasn't been fit enough to really judge that. But let's stop touting that Lindelof is a fundamentally sound and all around solid defender when he is not. He's not easily replaceable in the context of the Utd squad because by default no one's been fit or stepped up but he is as average a defender as it gets in the premier league. Out of the back four, Maguire, Shaw and AWB are easily a level or two above in defensive (effectivness) and all around general team play. They would be performing whether it was Bailly, Smalling or someone else. Lindelof does very little to elevate their performances.
One of the many general themes people talk about is 'playing the high line' with Bailly. What people mean is that very naturally Bailly will be higher up the pitch because he has that ability to do that and with it comes the risk/rewards. Of course when you actually look at it, Ole doesn't really actively coach or set the team to play this way. That's not evidence to say that 'we don't play this way and therefore it's not conductive to how we should play because we've been successful with our super defensive performances against teams where we set up to counter attack'.
The truth is that we should be doing these actions anyways but Lindelof simply does not excel or engage in. We will rarely play a high line or be in an aggressive position in those situations with Lindelof because he's just not comfortable or able to do without overexposing himself. Smart because he knows his limitations but it is also one less option/weapon e.g just like AWB being poor on the ball and getting pressed i.e it negatively affects our ability to be on the front foot. It's not 'consistent' defending or 'good reading of the game'. It's extremely basic and we need to stop elevating this.
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