For our stats folk.
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3
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 21
- Clean sheets
- 9
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 4
- Status
If you watch the clip again and watch all 3 players running until then end, you'll notice that Maguire is being left behind. Bailly stays with Isak and forces the player into turning to the right which gives Maguire the chance to slide and get a touch on the ball.
Another game without Lindelof and we don’t concede. I think it’s clear where our problems in defence lie (Lindelof and De Gea)
Nope.
Firstly, Januzaj's chance came from a Bailly blunder and then a couple of minutes later Bailly was beaten for pace by Isak and United could have easily been down 2-0 with about five minutes.
Not sure what you're talking about here. You made a claim about Maguire catching the opponent and then doubted Bailly's speed. My response to that is watch that passage of play again from the start of the transition and you'll see Maguire crosses the half way line before both Bailly and Isak, but ends up behind both at the end, hence having to slide in to get a foot on the ball. Had Bailly not gone with Isak shoulder to shoulder and forced him into Maguire's path, there's no way Maguire would've caught him.
I know it's very difficult for Lindelof fans to accept that, but try and enjoy a 4-0 win sometimes without micro-analyzing Eric Bailly.
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Maybe you started watching the match ten minutes in because United could have easily been down 2-0 because of Bailly. I'm a fan of the club and not individual players. So many fans will just look at the score and say hey that's a clean sheet but the biggest defensive blunders last night came from Bailly. I'm not saying he's bad. Maybe he's rusty from lack of game time but the mistakes were his. Maybe it's difficult for Eric Bailly fans to accept that.
I watched the full game and I'm someone that has been very vocal on here about us needing to buy another CB who will allow us to play a more proactive game.
The errors happened in the first 10 minutes and you could easily put that down to a lack of match rhythm. So I have no issue with him making those errors because we still won convincingly. Why would I complain about a player when we won easily, that would be silly. But I have no problem with you or anyone else bringing those errors up which occurred in the first 10 minutes. My bone of contention with you was my first response to you in this thread earlier and I feel I've put my point across.
Baillys speed is the reason that maguire managed to make a tackle
Consistency comes with experience and regular starts with the same CB partner. If Baily was not made of glass im confident he would have been much more consistent and also a regular.
Lindelof is way to passive in many situations, which often leads to us conceding.
We have 4 clean sheets in Lindelof’s 7 last matches, including clean sheets vs Liverpool and Arsenal.
That is the exact same number as Bailly (4 clean sheets in 7 matches).
So not sure what you mean.
This is the double standard I was talking about.
They have the same exact same number of clean sheets since Bailly’s return, yet this is considered amazing for Bailly, but Lindelof is a problem despite the fact that he has played against bigger teams.
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He had several shaky moments in the beginning, but he grew into the game and was very good afterwards. Somewhat excusable mistakes since he always has to get back into form after injuries...
That being said, I feel way more confident with him in the starting eleven. While he might not be the best in the world, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a better player and a better fit for our defense. I feel like he is much more commanding than Lindelof. Stats can often be misleading. If two defenders average 2 clearances per game, I`d much rather play the one that makes them decisively, which is often not the case with Lindelof. I hate the "light" touches he is prone to - altering the trajectory of crosses/passes just slightly, instead of making solid connections.
That being said, I feel way more confident with him in the starting eleven. While he might not be the best in the world, there is no doubt in my mind that he is a better player and a better fit for our defense. I feel like he is much more commanding than Lindelof. Stats can often be misleading. If two defenders average 2 clearances per game, I`d much rather play the one that makes them decisively, which is often not the case with Lindelof. I hate the "light" touches he is prone to - altering the trajectory of crosses/passes just slightly, instead of making solid connections.
Bailly is our best centre-half. An indictment to our defensive predicament.
I don’t think his own family believe that.
Can we at least see Bailly get a run of games, then you will see why we want this?
All things considered I honestly think he is. Lindelof is a lost cause, always has been and always will be, whilst Maguire has cost us plenty this season. Tuanzebe, despite being impressive every now and again, is ultimately still unproven and this leaves us with Phil Jones and the less said about him the better.
We have clean sheets in 58% of Bailly's matches.
We have 33% of clean sheets in Lindelofs
Maguire is at 39%
So I don't think it's some great double standard.
Lets wait until he's managed to play i don't know 15-20 games in a row without any dips in form or consistent erratic errors before considering if he's the best defender at the club. Because currently he is not.
To be fair the amount of games each have played and against which opposition should be taken into account.
It's a bit of a stupid way to judge a defenders performance anyway i've always thought.
Maguire-Bailly has been our best defensive partnership since the first time they played together in the league away to Chelsea. Ole has to realise this. They complement each other so well. Harry is a defender’s defender who while slow, can play, read crosses and is one of the most aerially dominant players in the league. Bailly is rapid, can also play and is extremely brave in the challenge. Meanwhile, Lindelof is slow and a real coward. The Diagne challenge was a foul but it wouldn’t have happened to Bailly.
Ole has to recognise this. I want to see them play together against Newcastle and beyond. They are solid and definitely our best defensive duo.
Ole has to recognise this. I want to see them play together against Newcastle and beyond. They are solid and definitely our best defensive duo.
Oh yeah lots of variables and all that in terms of standard of opposition (though then again, we conceded 4 goals to Sheffield United this season... so I don't think standard of opposition often matters in terms of who we concede shit goals to!) ... just goes against the notion that its somehow unfair on LIndelof to claim Bailly has more clean sheets.
It seem impossible for him to stay fit for a run of games, no point building any partnership where he is included since he won’t be available. Better play him with a lot of rest so he can stay fit, and be our first backup.
Oh i get that mate, i just don't like that sort of stat when used to praise one defender over another. Maguire has played in pretty much every clean sheet we've managed this season yet he doesn't seem to get much credit for them
Maguire plays much better beside him, even for that alone it's worth playing him. He is also better than Lindelof for our setup as well.
If you truly believe that then I worry for your judgement in general. Of course he caught him he’s literally running alongside him, he just can’t get to the ball as easily as he’s on the other side.
he does a good job of slowing him and pressuring him to the side so that maguire can get back and push it away.
It is double standard. Bailly and Lindelof have the same amount of clean sheets since BAilly's return, but Bailly is considered amazing and Lindelof a problem, based on the number of clean sheets.
Of course his percentage looks good becasue many of them are cup matches, like his half against Watford as a clean sheet. In the PL he has 2 clean sheets out of 6, against lower half table teams, while Lindelof's clean sheets include City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal....
So saying that Bailly's clean sheets make him the obvious choice over Linedlof is double standard.
Wow are you really trying to suggest Maguire is quicker than Bailly?
Rating Bailly doesn't necessarily mean you have to disrespect Lindelof.
Both are good defenders but Bailly seems to suit playing with Maguire and the team better in more matches as we can then play more confidently higher up the pitch and compress the play.
Both are good defenders but Bailly seems to suit playing with Maguire and the team better in more matches as we can then play more confidently higher up the pitch and compress the play.
If you are doubting his pace, you need to go to Specsavers with those objective lenses you’re wearing. He was obviously faster than Isak. First Isak fooled him whilst at speed leaving Bailly trailing and having to turn. Then Bailly caught up with him, and instead of over committing again, he satued with him forcing him wide. Later in the game, they had a clean foot race to the ball down out left, and Bailly obliterated him for speed. Also, Isak is known to be rapid.
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It’s not basic though it’s fundamental. Containing world class attackers is not easy and of course Lindelof can do more than that and this kind of ignorance is what really annoys me. People act as though Lindelof has been doing nothing of value never tackling never competing never heading but the fact is he does all of this every single game people just like to ignore that.Nope I have no idea about any of that.
you’re talking about very basic defending, but the fact is Lindelof cannot do anything more than that. We play a much better pressing game with Bailly in the team and keep the pressure up more regularly winning the ball in higher areas.You can’t just retreat back to your box and hope for the best every time a team counters.
Bailly was pretty poor the first few minutes but shook it off quickly and then we didn’t see Isak again.
We’ve played a high line with Lindelof this season too just look at Ole’s press conferences he says so himself.
Actually watch the next few games and see how high up we actually are. Look at the WBA game we rarely left their half!
What you’re doing is what so many do and you’re just being really lazy or deliberately obtuse when it comes to Lindelof compared to Bailly. You’re ignoring all that one can offer as the other is your darling.
He’s a really good CB and he’s done a really good job with Maguire so far.
He’s not perfect absolutely and I don’t think he’s the perfect CB for Maguire but as I’ve said on other threads I don’t see a perfect CB available or at the club currently.
But the issue is he can’t stay fit to build a partnership. So you have to then use him as a rotation option.
We don’t often concede as a result of Lindelof though. He makes the odd mistake just like any other CB.
Bailly is so funny to watch.
We've won 80% of the time when he's playing with Maguire yet I'm sure we'll see Lindelof back this weekend
To be fair though, @Freak never said anything about it being since his return... just another clean sheet this season. Which he has more of.
But yeah its meaningless without taking opposition and what not into count, especially this season - as you could easily argue that the clean sheets gained vs. Chelsea City and Arsenal were probably much easier to come by then Burnley or Everton or Leipzig, as they were games where both teams were set-up to just not lose with minimal attacking intent.
I had no idea we have Victor Lindelof fanboys. Seeing them try to shit on Bailly is hilarious, honestly.
Seeing them try to shit on Bailly is hilarious, honestly.In general it is difficult to compare cup matches with league matches. In a league match vs Liverpool or City, where we were in the lead of the league, the most important was not to win but to not lose and to give the other team points.
@Ekeke gave them the fantastic name, the "Lindelovers".I had no idea we have Victor Lindelof fanboys.
We've won 80% of the time when he's playing with Maguire yet I'm sure we'll see Lindelof back this weekend
Yeah it's a shame. Bailly's fitness might play into it somewhat but he should be the go to partner for Maguire when fit.
Early mistakes, but Bailly recovered quickly and rose to the occasion fantastically.
May he avoid the physioroom the rest of the season.
May he avoid the physioroom the rest of the season.
You have seen something many do not see, kudos!
I wonder about the other point of matching Maguire. I hope it’s correct, partly because I love Dr Hyde Bailly (sic intended), and because it would point to an untapped potential also in Mary Maguire (For referance, check out Bruno’s Place by Loudon Wainwright III).
I’m unsure, both because Lindelöf is very good at reading his CB partners and back line, whereas Eric is more of a loose canon, and because some of the most disjointed defensive organization at United have happened with Eric and Harry as the duo, including the first half hour vs Real Sociedad. I hope, though, that Eric will solve that with a prolonged run, and that he will be able to play a prolonged run again.
As of yet, I am still confident in Lindelöf-Maguire. Give it twenty games of continued Bailly without the bloopers and positioning chaos, and I might change my mind.
But we are not down 2-0 in reality because those two can cover each other. It’s two pair of centre back that compliment each other. If it was Lindelof to partner one of them, we might down 2-0 since Lindelof won’t be able to cover all Maguire and Bailly weaknesses even though he’s not a bad centre back.
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