Yes but he’s not exposed to it so obviously it’s not really happening.
English people who want England to fail
- Thread starter Schmeichel's Cartwheel
- Start date
I like to see England do well but I would take United winning the league or a CL over England winning the World Cup any day of the week.
I think the reason why I'm not too invested in England is growing up I saw United players always made the scapegoats and I would be lying if I said the Beckham effigy and all the abuse he got still doesn't boil my piss. Not to mention the anti United chants at England games but of course this thing doesn't go on much anymore so I do find this England side easier to root for.
I think the reason why I'm not too invested in England is growing up I saw United players always made the scapegoats and I would be lying if I said the Beckham effigy and all the abuse he got still doesn't boil my piss. Not to mention the anti United chants at England games but of course this thing doesn't go on much anymore so I do find this England side easier to root for.
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Literally couldn't make up who posted this thread. 
This I can relate to. I want the National Team to win, but i really don't get up for it in the same way as club football. Maybe its because I consider myself to be more British than English.
It's long standing that a lot of United, and Liverpool, fans have a total ambivalence to the national team. Often due to the shithousery of the FA and the anti-establishment nature of the cities.
Ultimately people show national pride in different ways. It doesn't take much imagination to see why many people are embarrassed that English football fans are representing the country.
Ultimately people show national pride in different ways. It doesn't take much imagination to see why many people are embarrassed that English football fans are representing the country.
The English people who want England to fail are basically Piers Morgan/Lawrence Fox/Nigel Farage types.
They want us to be shit so they can whine and wind up fellow angry people.
They want us to be shit so they can whine and wind up fellow angry people.
4D chess.
It's nothing against the players really. Apart from Pickford there's nobody in the current squad that I dislike, and even Pickford is mild compared to some players that have worn the shirt. But it's just a general disillusionment with the country I was born in and live in that's been growing over many years. Generally it results in complete apathy towards the England team, but there's something about the English media and England fans getting all excited about it "coming home" at the start of every international tournament that makes me want to see them lose.
That's clearly what I meant.
You're right, I should be support England, where racism doesn't exist.
I think that is partly why the NFL is so popular, no one else plays it so we are secure in the thought we are the best. That and gambling.
I consider the Olympics more an event and other than family members no one gives a shit about most of it. Of course we will notice and get behind someone like Michael Phelps but when was the last time you went to a swim meet or even paid attention to the trials?
The dream team was put together because we were getting our asses handed to us and we could not have that, this is "our" sport. The support was there from an arrogant "see, I told you" sort of view and once it was over and we proved we were the best at the time we went back to not really caring about it too much. The enthusiasm for the 80's hockey team came mostly AFTER we beat the Russians. It also had the political side to why people cared so much. As for the women's and men's soccer teams, they are well supported by the fans of the game but that is still a very small portion of the population. You have to do your own work to even find out when they play, it is not talked about on the local sports stations.
The rest we are on the same page with, I think. There is an overabundance of idiots in this world and in general it is best to just keep to yourself. Oh, and stay off Twitter or ignore most of what you read there. Not everyone is going to agree with you so in most cases it's probably best to just roll your eyes and "trot on with your day" rather than starting a thread asking why...
Interesting route to go down considering you actually said these words….
“ And I know Italy and every other country has similar elements within society, but I'm not exposed to that so it's easier to ignore.”
I don’t think Italy’s history with racism, which includes booing their own black players is something that should be easy to ignore.
By which I meant I'm not subjected to these types of people on a regular basis. I didn't mean the issues themselves are easy to ignore, just easier to avoid those types of people.
Which by itself would be a fair point and if there was no social nor political context than it’d be easy to understand your view point.
The problem you and many others have is you present this dislike of England as a factor based off social issues like racism, bigotry, xenophobia etc that you believe England suffers from. But then you turn around and say you want Italy to win. This basically completely shits on the stance you’re trying to take.
Either you take a stance against racism and bigotry or you don’t. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t whine about England’s issues but then say you want Italy/Ukraine etc to win.
What it does is, it makes you come across as the kind of person who pretends to be deeply against racism etc when in reality you’re not that bothered about it but it’s a nice tool to use when you want to express your dislike for England when you can’t think of any legitimate reasons even though there are many such as ..
- Club cliques forming and causing massive underperformance at international tournaments.
- Fans singing really irritating chants
- Fans singing about ‘German bombers’. Stop singing about the war you idiots..
- Booing anthems
- Lack of mental strength through numerous squads
- Previously you could have used hooliganism but England fans are middle class as anything now. (See mockney)
I dunno maybe people feel in order to justify their dislike they need to tap into more complex issues. When if they just kept it simple they would seem like normal people.
Not me. I have seen 2 CL wins and a world cup win is.....well.... a once in century thing. I'm not even die hard England
They have strong Irish and sometimes Welsh backgrounds so its reasonable. Former Cities of immigrants
I don't see it as actively taking a stance against racism, bigotry or anything like that. I'm not trying to portray myself as a moral crusader.
Like I said, it stems from apathy towards international football and growing disillusionment with the country I was born in. I think national pride is weird but most of the time I simply just don't care enough to give a toss what happens. But in international tournaments, when the gutter press and large sections of English fans (particularly the year-round flag toting types) are so insufferable, I take my enjoyment from seeing them fail.
Some of your colleagues, family members or people you don't know want you to fail.
Back to the topic, where is the issue if some people don't like a national team?
Back to the topic, where is the issue if some people don't like a national team?
I've seen United in 4 cl finals now. For me this Sunday is bigger I might never get to see England in a final ever again. I'm already nervous.
You know that the reality is much diverse and complex. I know an English remainer pro-eu who said he wanted England to fail because he thinks England is a stupid country because they voted Brexit so cost of life higher etc. The guy grew up abroad. Scottish who hates football. In this case, I just think he doesn't like football and the noise associated.
I am irish and shouting for England, mainly because of the Man Utd players.
Just don’t get this kind of attitude. I watched Juventus in Turin two years ago and I saw more racism by fans than I have ever seen at games in England combined. And it wasn’t even a particular group. Young, old they were all at it, even when Matuidi had the ball. England gets labelled with so much when in reality most of Europe is the same or actually worse. When England fans get patriotic we suddenly get labelled far right neo-nazis when in reality it’s a country who loves their football and alcohol which creates half the behaviour deemed ‘shocking’. It has nothing to do with politics.
Hasn't a vast amount of racism happened exactly in England in the last couple of years? Including monkey gestures?
Every England thread seems to come back to same thing, but this thread seems most relevant to post this in:
Anti and pro-English posting seems to follow 3 patterns and let's look at those and diagnose them:
Logical Fallacies
Perspectivism and Absolute Perspectivism
Relativism and Moral Relativism:
Reductionism:
My point...
Don't fall into these traps. Be better than this. Resist subscribing to these techniques. Don't engage in logical fallacies, perspectivism, relativism, reductionism, or prophesy.
Your whole life will be better for it.
That said...
It's coming lads!!! It's coming home!!!!!
Anti and pro-English posting seems to follow 3 patterns and let's look at those and diagnose them:
Logical Fallacies
- Manchester United is based in England, therefore you should support England (or at least not be against England)
- Scotland, Wales England and Northern Ireland are in the United Kingdom, therefore if you are British you should support England
- Only English citizens can support England
Perspectivism and Absolute Perspectivism
- From my perspective, supporting the England team means you must support the entire history of the British Empire good and bad and account for it
- From my perspective, I equate the England football with hooligans and right-wing politics, and that means if you support them you must justify hooligans and right-wing politics
- From my perspective, I equate supporting England with racism, so you must be racist if you support them
Relativism and Moral Relativism:
- Maradona cheated in 1986, so it's okay Sterling took a dive
- The Italians cheated, too, so it's okay if we cheat
- All nations did bad things, so I can justify the sins of the British Empire
Reductionism:
- If we sign a central defensive midfielder, we could win the league
- If had a Director of Football, we would win the league
- If the Glazers sold United, we'd be proper sorted
- If we fire Ole, we'll win the league
- If we start Grealish, we'll win on Sunday
- Any other manager than Southgate, and we'll win it
My point...
Don't fall into these traps. Be better than this. Resist subscribing to these techniques. Don't engage in logical fallacies, perspectivism, relativism, reductionism, or prophesy.
Your whole life will be better for it.
That said...
It's coming lads!!! It's coming home!!!!!
Na na na! Na na na!
vindaloo vindaloo
Bit of a lads lads song but hey. At least it’s better than the Atomic Kitten song, that gets on my tits!
My favourite England song starts with…
“Well some of the crowd are on the pitch, they think it’s all over, but it is now!”
we should start a pledge that we will never song that song again if we win on Sunday?
We might just turn the caf to the dark side and they support England!
have to admit I felt old when I saw Baddiel and Skinner singing it yesterday, and most of the people singing weren’t even alive when it was released.
We’ll it’s the New Order one for me, not the Baddiel & Skinner! So I don’t commit, but I shamefully admit we were doing the Barnes rap of World in Motion on the Caf before the Denmark and I was on Teams at work and I totally fecked it because I was distracted by work. My bad to any of the lads on the Caf during that moment. I fecked it up. Still ashamed.
we should start a pledge that we will never song that song again if we win on Sunday?
We might just turn the caf to the dark side and they support England!
have to admit I felt old when I saw Baddiel and Skinner singing it yesterday, and most of the people singing weren’t even alive when it was released.
edit: They called me out a Danish agent. Proper banter.
Do Germany have a self-loathing section of football fans for their past crimes?
legend
what a fecking song. I have on my spotify play list and they need to bang it out leading up to the final
I'm non English and I don't want England to fail. It's time Premier League teams dominate the footballing world once more. I'm sick of seeing the domination of Barca and Madrid (Spain included). Mainly because they're cringy as feck. Holier than thou attitudes, photoshopping pictures to make their club look better and their presidents think every player want to join them and almost every player did want to join them circus. Don't want to see the likes of them dominating the footballing scene. La Decima La Decima my arse. Messi in un club my arse. And also considering we have our fair share of English players, them winning something will actually improve the mentality of the squad. It could only be beneficial to us because we're still lacking winners. I mean having Maguire the Greece criminal vs Maguire the Euro winner is already a big improvement in itself. Shaw the fatty bum-bum vs Shaw the Euro winning Mourinho destroyer is another one.
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I am very indifferent about England. However, I think a lot of it has to do with the following;
1) I see how it is hypocritical to want to see a player fail for 23 months in a row to only then reverse my attitude when they pull on an England shirt for a tournament.
2) International football is really not a very good level of football and it has way too little jeopardy. Qualifiers now are a procession, while the groups stages of the tournaments are similar with 24/48 teams in it.
3) English media is insufferable. One minute someone is great, then all of a sudden someone does something slightly wrong and they're a scumbag who deserves to be hounded/ostracised. Tbh, the ostracisation of individuals for doing something slightly wrong/uncouth is also why I cannot stand middle class people in general, who are very prone to doing this in general in England/UK, which leads me to my last point.
4) International tournaments result in me having to talk to people that don't know much about football, about football. This leads to nonesense about how some players are actually 'great', when everything I have seen from them fkr years shows that they're not, and/or how a manager like Southgate is a 'tactical genius'. I just cannot do the niceties of going along with something because enough people think it and empirical evidence shows otherwise.
1) I see how it is hypocritical to want to see a player fail for 23 months in a row to only then reverse my attitude when they pull on an England shirt for a tournament.
2) International football is really not a very good level of football and it has way too little jeopardy. Qualifiers now are a procession, while the groups stages of the tournaments are similar with 24/48 teams in it.
3) English media is insufferable. One minute someone is great, then all of a sudden someone does something slightly wrong and they're a scumbag who deserves to be hounded/ostracised. Tbh, the ostracisation of individuals for doing something slightly wrong/uncouth is also why I cannot stand middle class people in general, who are very prone to doing this in general in England/UK, which leads me to my last point.
4) International tournaments result in me having to talk to people that don't know much about football, about football. This leads to nonesense about how some players are actually 'great', when everything I have seen from them fkr years shows that they're not, and/or how a manager like Southgate is a 'tactical genius'. I just cannot do the niceties of going along with something because enough people think it and empirical evidence shows otherwise.
This is unfortunately another example of the usual denial and deflective defence that sees the English fan resorting to infantile "whataboutery"rather than take responsibility for one's country's racist violent past.
And by the way Germany has at least attempted to confront its period of horrific historic national socialist empire ( which incidentally was Hitler's copycat version of the racist English/British empire he admired so much). So Germany has at least attempted to confront the violence of it's past and so the trauma it has brought about.
England on the other hand ignores the incomparable violence it has unleashed on the innocent people of this world. A certain England still longs for the good old days of Empire, whitewashing the disgusting racist violence it practised for hundreds of years. You can still easily discern the nostalgia in post Brexit England, "make Britain great again, taking back control, send immigrants home written on buses, a spike in racist ant-immigrant violence and so on.
England likes to ignore the pure evil it inflicted on the innocent indigenous peoples of the world's continents for hundreds of years, including near total extinction and brutal slaughter of ethnic populations, treating aboriginal, African and native American people as sub human. England committed mass murder in India and in Ireland too, starving the populations whilst robbing and exporting the best of grains and beef etc.
England likes to see it's history by burying its head in the sand. (see Indigo Montoya "I think we can move on from it; painful diatribe that it is".
And yes England still benefits from its empire today. It carved up Africa, split Ireland, split Cyprus and set up Israel and other pro Western States in the middle east so that it could continue it's exploitation see BP, British Petroleum for example.
So when England's fans aggressively boo other country's anthems and chant anti-Ireland and anti-Germany songs it is all related to England's violent history, expressing a yearning for grand scale global violence again. No wonder people don't like it including the English people who want to admit England's barbaric racist history.
Unless the true scale of the English racist, ethnic slaughter and violence that was inflicted on the world for centuries is confronted by England then I'm afraid the longing to repeat its' violent atrocities will continue to find expression in the thug section of the fan base.
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They do I believe as do a lot of countries with a tarnished colonial and imperialist history.
Having said that, football and sport in general is doing a huge amount to break down barriers both racial and social so while the writer of the post has a few valid points it’s also very revisionist and poorly written.
I think we can move on from it; painful diatribe that it is
Thank you! «The most evil empire in this planets history» I mean, maybe you’d think that if you just learned to read and never heard of any other empire, which I suspect isn’t the case here. A post for the ages that!
Interesting. So, for curiosity's sake, who do you believe to be 'the most evil empire in this planet's history'? And why do you think whomever it is you have chosen, is that? What do you think it is that the British Empire didn't do to achieve this lofty title?
Same here. England winning a major tournament trumps everything for me. First time I’ve felt visibly emotional at Football was on Wednesday.
A large part of the history lessons in German schools is about the Nazi era, its evils and how it came about. It's a different relationship with the past than the English seem to have.
Never an obvious answer, but if you’ve read your history then you’ll see most historical empires are despicable and evil to our standard. However, for me personally, Nazi Germany is top, and all other comparisons fall short because of their conscious institutionalized industrial murder of several minority groups to such an extent, add in how large % of their population actively played a part and it’s hard to overlook.