English cricket thread

FlawlessThaw said:
Honestly can't see a situation where England would have won the test by now in this pitch if they went any more aggressive.
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Yeah definitely not possible to have got a result by the end of today,will be an absolute heartbreaker for the non pessimists if we don't get any more cricket
 
Dan_F said:
That’s not how it works though. England could have got to a 100 lead yesterday evening if Brooks and Stokes went for it, and that’s undeniable. I also believe England would have taken wickets due to Australia being in the field all day. Those mistakes we were seeing in the field last night, could have been batting mistakes. I believe they could have been a couple down and still 60 runs down starting today.

As it is, we’re looking at 4 wickets down but a completely over the top 160 runs behind.

Don’t get me wrong, what I’m suggesting is super aggressive, ridiculous cricket. But that’s what we needed in this situation. As it is, we’ve left the series completely in the hands of weather.
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Jeez you might just be even more negative than me and that's quite an achievement
 
Dan_F said:
Pretty sure what I’m suggesting is very aggressive and positive to force a result. Certainly not negative.
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I am looking for crumbs of comfort not wishing we had declared earlier,oh god now a journo on Back Pages is saying it too
 
croadyman said:
I am looking for crumbs of comfort not wishing we had declared earlier,oh god now a journo on Back Pages is saying it too
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It’s strange. Almost like people have forgotten we lose if there’s no more play (very possible). I don’t understand how you can go from declaring on day one of the Ashes to try and progress the game, to what happened today. That includes the commentators etc, it seems like there was little sense of what the forecast is actually saying.
 
Dan_F said:
It’s strange. Almost like people have forgotten we lose if there’s no more play (very possible). I don’t understand how you can go from declaring on day one of the Ashes to try and progress the game, to what happened today. That includes the commentators etc, it seems like there was little sense of what the forecast is actually saying.
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Much like me and many others they probably are dreading contemplating the reality of weather wrecking our Ashes hopes. Just thinking about the forecast literally makes me want to shed tears. I could handle losing out courtesy of being beaten fair and square but not due to fecking rain.
 
croadyman said:
Much like me and many others they probably are dreading contemplating the reality of weather wrecking our Ashes hopes. Just thinking about the forecast literally makes me want to shed tears. I could handle losing out courtesy of Aussies winning but not due to fecking rain.
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But my whole point is that we all knew the forecast from day 1, and we were in a perfect position to force their hand. We’ve backed ourselves into a corner and said we will win this test only if the weather allows.

I need to let this go, but I’m also so certain that this should have been approached differently.
 
Dan_F said:
But my whole point is that we all knew the forecast from day 1, and we were in a perfect position to force their hand. We’ve backed ourselves into a corner and said we will win this test only if the weather allows.

I need to let this go, but I’m also so certain that this should have been approached differently.
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Yeah sadly we knew the forecast was grim,suffice to say we both need someone who is more confident we could somehow get some play in the next two days. Literally want to scream at our British weather right now but unfortunately won't make a blind bit of difference to the cause.
 
New to cricket and probably a silly question, but if Australia don't get 162 runs does that mean England don't have to bat their second innings, and win of course?
 
tentan said:
Ok thanks. Is winning a test match by an innings quite rare then?
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For evenly matched teams, it’s a pretty big statement. I don’t want to use a football term because all I can think of is some of those horror shows of the last few years.
 
Dan_F said:
But my whole point is that we all knew the forecast from day 1, and we were in a perfect position to force their hand. We’ve backed ourselves into a corner and said we will win this test only if the weather allows.

I need to let this go, but I’m also so certain that this should have been approached differently.
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But who could have anticipated rain in Manchester (Met Office aside)?
 
I understand disappointment about the weather after such a great effort but people are really clutching at straws here now
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
I understand disappointment about the weather after such a great effort but people are really clutching at straws here now
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Disappointment doesn't even come close to what I am feeling about this right now. Not sure we would have had the time to knock them over today even if we had declared at lunch.
 
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Dan_F said:
It’s strange. Almost like people have forgotten we lose if there’s no more play (very possible). I don’t understand how you can go from declaring on day one of the Ashes to try and progress the game, to what happened today. That includes the commentators etc, it seems like there was little sense of what the forecast is actually saying.
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this test is the first one where i’ve actually felt bazball might work. this wasn’t “t20 cricket, but in a test.” this wasn’t trying to hook every ball for 6. this wasn’t declaring with a set batsman, more than capable of farming the strike, to have 5 overs at them on a flat deck (that first test is what would have happened here.) this was a team learning from their mistakes. this was a team reading the match situation. this was a team sending a message and, setting the tone for how england play. it was laying the foundations for the next cabs off the rank. it was bigger than just the ashes. it was calculated. it was ruthless. it was brutal.

this was like watching the australian team of the 90s and 2000s. australia were crushed under foot, we did whatever we wanted to them. they were helpless. they were unable to affect the game at all. think you’ve done enough to force a declaration? we’ll bring anderson out and put another 70 on the board in 5 overs. we did what we wanted, they were forced along for the ride. cummins looked lost. he’ll be getting all kinds of stick back home. exactly how it always used to be for us and our captains. we always picked the wrong side, bowled the wrong deliveries, read the pitch and the match wrong. most of their bowlers looked confused, their batsmen unsure what their focus was. there was too long left to try and survive whilst 270 behind. ego meant they wanted to wrestle control back and show they were top dogs. that simply doesn’t happen with an earlier declaration. expecting england to score at 7 an over for 100 overs, and knock australia over twice in the same amount of overs, to win a test match, on a decent deck, in 3.x days, is quite simply cuckoo land.

if australia retain the ashes due to the weather, so be it. it’ll suck but it would always be hard to win the ashes with only 4 tests, knowing they only need to draw the series to retain them. we’ve seen how negative cummins has been all series, and it’s only getting worse. they packed their team to bat out a draw this test. giving them more time to do that and no scoreboard pressure wasn’t the solution to win this in three and a bit days. there was no winning this in three and a bit days.

i firmly believe an earlier declaration only helped us take a couple more aussies wickets yesterday, at the cost of a boat load of runs. to take ten wickets yesterday, we needed to bowl all day. we’d be looking at needing 250-300 in maybe a session of cricket, on a sticky wicket, whilst potentially only getting the overs in, in small batches. we’ve more chance of taking 6 wickets in that scenario.

if australia retain them, they won’t deserve it. go back 1 year and none of us in our wildest dreams, could have believed that. yesterday was the first time this didn’t feel like an experiment that was waiting to blow up in our faces. yesterday was the first time i felt that this set up could make us a truly spectacular side, capable of blowing anyone away, in any conditions. this test has shown whoever wants to replace broad and anderson, whoever wants to displace bairstow or crawley, what it takes and what they need to be. this test showed australia fear us and that’s enough for me. this is bigger than the ashes, this showed that this team might be set for domination. i’ll take the draw or a loss of one series for that.
 
Dan_F said:
I don’t agree. The aggressive option is giving yourself more time to take the 10 wickets and backing yourself to chase whatever is left if needed. Stokes was more aggressive on day one of the ashes, and I fully backed that declaration, I thought it was brilliant but didn’t come off.

England have allowed the weather to decide to the result. They could have won the test today if they went aggressive. England didn’t need those extra 150 runs, they needed another 40 overs to bowl Australia out and then use whatever is left to chase.
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If there is no more play, than it dosent matter either way. To win in three days we would of had to roll Aus on day one for 150 or something similar. But it's a good pitch as we have shown with our batting so very difficult to take 20 wickets in what 4/5 session on a flat pitch.

It's much easy to make runs on day three when the sun is out the opposition bowlers are tired and you have got batsmen smashing it to all parts then than on day five with weather around a rested opposition attack.

If England had declared 150 ahead, Aus would be building a lead now maybe 5 or 6 down but england than have to worry about trying to make sure they don't have to much to chase, the field would have to go a little more defensive, but now if we do get play we can be ultra aggressive knowing we have runs in the bank, and Aus will just be in survival mode they know it's unlikely that England will bat again In this test with the combination of the lead and the weather.

Playing on has made the situation simple, England need six wickets and they probably need a session and a bit to do it.
 
Agent Red said:
It would have been the conditions of earlier in the day though, not an extension of the evening, and without the psychological and physical advantage of having completely worn them down in the field first. Yes we might have got another wicket but we were never going to get 10 wickets today and I’m not convinced the extra hour would have meant they’d be 7 down tonight or whatever. For me if we need another 1.5-2 sessions to finish this and I think that would have been the case even if we’d declared earlier today.

I can see why others reach a different view but personally I had no issue with the tactics today.
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I agree with this. England didn’t need a lead of 200+.

They should have declared at 100+ and gone hammer and tongs to get the 10 wickets. Either the Aussies bat the rest of the day and get a draw…or England give themselves a small chance by either 1) taking all 10 wickets, or 2) having to chase a small lead if they take the field again. Both those latter scenarios are worth taking being 2-1 down with bad weather on the horizon.
 
The Corinthian said:
I agree with this. England didn’t need a lead of 200+.

They should have declared at 100+ and gone hammer and tongs to get the 10 wickets. Either the Aussies bat the rest of the day and get a draw…or England give themselves a small chance by either 1) taking all 10 wickets, or 2) having to chase a small lead if they take the field again. Both those latter scenarios are worth taking being 2-1 down with bad weather on the horizon.
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Do you mean you don’t agree? Because our posts are saying opposite things.

Rimaldo’s posts basically sum up my views.
 
rimaldo said:
this test is the first one where i’ve actually felt bazball might work. this wasn’t “t20 cricket, but in a test.” this wasn’t trying to hook every ball for 6. this wasn’t declaring with a set batsman, more than capable of farming the strike, to have 5 overs at them on a flat deck (that first test is what would have happened here.) this was a team learning from their mistakes. this was a team reading the match situation. this was a team sending a message and, setting the tone for how england play. it was laying the foundations for the next cabs off the rank. it was bigger than just the ashes. it was calculated. it was ruthless. it was brutal.

this was like watching the australian team of the 90s and 2000s. australia were crushed under foot, we did whatever we wanted to them. they were helpless. they were unable to affect the game at all. think you’ve done enough to force a declaration? we’ll bring anderson out and put another 70 on the board in 5 overs. we did what we wanted, they were forced along for the ride. cummins looked lost. he’ll be getting all kinds of stick back home. exactly how it always used to be for us and our captains. we always picked the wrong side, bowled the wrong deliveries, read the pitch and the match wrong. most of their bowlers looked confused, their batsmen unsure what their focus was. there was too long left to try and survive whilst 270 behind. ego meant they wanted to wrestle control back and show they were top dogs. that simply doesn’t happen with an earlier declaration. expecting england to score at 7 an over for 100 overs, and knock australia over twice in the same amount of overs, to win a test match, on a decent deck, in 3.x days, is quite simply cuckoo land.

if australia retain the ashes due to the weather, so be it. it’ll suck but it would always be hard to win the ashes with only 4 tests, knowing they only need to draw the series to retain them. we’ve seen how negative cummins has been all series, and it’s only getting worse. they packed their team to bat out a draw this test. giving them more time to do that and no scoreboard pressure wasn’t the solution to win this in three and a bit days. there was no winning this in three and a bit days.

i firmly believe an earlier declaration only helped us take a couple more aussies wickets yesterday, at the cost of a boat load of runs. to take ten wickets yesterday, we needed to bowl all day. we’d be looking at needing 250-300 in maybe a session of cricket, on a sticky wicket, whilst potentially only getting the overs in, in small batches. we’ve more chance of taking 6 wickets in that scenario.

if australia retain them, they won’t deserve it. go back 1 year and none of us in our wildest dreams, could have believed that. yesterday was the first time this didn’t feel like an experiment that was waiting to blow up in our faces. yesterday was the first time i felt that this set up could make us a truly spectacular side, capable of blowing anyone away, in any conditions. this test has shown whoever wants to replace broad and anderson, whoever wants to displace bairstow or crawley, what it takes and what they need to be. this test showed australia fear us and that’s enough for me. this is bigger than the ashes, this showed that this team might be set for domination. i’ll take the draw or a loss of one series for that.
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Brilliant post.
 
Agent Red said:
Bookies finally caught up to the weather forecast, draw now 4/9
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Fecking hell ICC where is the reserve day you had in place for the WTC final. Wonder if Stokes & Brook are wishing they went harder in evening session of day 2.
 
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Dan_F said:
If it rains all weekend and we can’t take 10 wickets now, there definitely is a right answer mate :wenger:
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If it rains all weekend we wouldn't have got time to chase down their runs anyway so it's all moot
 
Dan_F said:
I don’t agree. The aggressive option is giving yourself more time to take the 10 wickets and backing yourself to chase whatever is left if needed. Stokes was more aggressive on day one of the ashes, and I fully backed that declaration, I thought it was brilliant but didn’t come off.

England have allowed the weather to decide to the result. They could have won the test today if they went aggressive. England didn’t need those extra 150 runs, they needed another 40 overs to bowl Australia out and then use whatever is left to chase.
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Those 40 overs were when it was fabulous for batting. Australia could be sitting with a 200 run lead and still be 6 down and England with no time to bat again. They tried to take it down to a 3 innings match, shorten the game and wanted Australia to be batting in between rain sessions, stop start, with cloud cover, when it's difficult, not themselves.

England are the most aggressive team in the world atm and didn't declare. Think about that for a second.
 
rimaldo said:
this test is the first one where i’ve actually felt bazball might work. this wasn’t “t20 cricket, but in a test.” this wasn’t trying to hook every ball for 6. this wasn’t declaring with a set batsman, more than capable of farming the strike, to have 5 overs at them on a flat deck (that first test is what would have happened here.) this was a team learning from their mistakes. this was a team reading the match situation. this was a team sending a message and, setting the tone for how england play. it was laying the foundations for the next cabs off the rank. it was bigger than just the ashes. it was calculated. it was ruthless. it was brutal.

this was like watching the australian team of the 90s and 2000s. australia were crushed under foot, we did whatever we wanted to them. they were helpless. they were unable to affect the game at all. think you’ve done enough to force a declaration? we’ll bring anderson out and put another 70 on the board in 5 overs. we did what we wanted, they were forced along for the ride. cummins looked lost. he’ll be getting all kinds of stick back home. exactly how it always used to be for us and our captains. we always picked the wrong side, bowled the wrong deliveries, read the pitch and the match wrong. most of their bowlers looked confused, their batsmen unsure what their focus was. there was too long left to try and survive whilst 270 behind. ego meant they wanted to wrestle control back and show they were top dogs. that simply doesn’t happen with an earlier declaration. expecting england to score at 7 an over for 100 overs, and knock australia over twice in the same amount of overs, to win a test match, on a decent deck, in 3.x days, is quite simply cuckoo land.

if australia retain the ashes due to the weather, so be it. it’ll suck but it would always be hard to win the ashes with only 4 tests, knowing they only need to draw the series to retain them. we’ve seen how negative cummins has been all series, and it’s only getting worse. they packed their team to bat out a draw this test. giving them more time to do that and no scoreboard pressure wasn’t the solution to win this in three and a bit days. there was no winning this in three and a bit days.

i firmly believe an earlier declaration only helped us take a couple more aussies wickets yesterday, at the cost of a boat load of runs. to take ten wickets yesterday, we needed to bowl all day. we’d be looking at needing 250-300 in maybe a session of cricket, on a sticky wicket, whilst potentially only getting the overs in, in small batches. we’ve more chance of taking 6 wickets in that scenario.

if australia retain them, they won’t deserve it. go back 1 year and none of us in our wildest dreams, could have believed that. yesterday was the first time this didn’t feel like an experiment that was waiting to blow up in our faces. yesterday was the first time i felt that this set up could make us a truly spectacular side, capable of blowing anyone away, in any conditions. this test has shown whoever wants to replace broad and anderson, whoever wants to displace bairstow or crawley, what it takes and what they need to be. this test showed australia fear us and that’s enough for me. this is bigger than the ashes, this showed that this team might be set for domination. i’ll take the draw or a loss of one series for that.
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Great post. You should post seriously more often.
 
rimaldo said:
this test is the first one where i’ve actually felt bazball might work. this wasn’t “t20 cricket, but in a test.” this wasn’t trying to hook every ball for 6. this wasn’t declaring with a set batsman, more than capable of farming the strike, to have 5 overs at them on a flat deck (that first test is what would have happened here.) this was a team learning from their mistakes. this was a team reading the match situation. this was a team sending a message and, setting the tone for how england play. it was laying the foundations for the next cabs off the rank. it was bigger than just the ashes. it was calculated. it was ruthless. it was brutal.

this was like watching the australian team of the 90s and 2000s. australia were crushed under foot, we did whatever we wanted to them. they were helpless. they were unable to affect the game at all. think you’ve done enough to force a declaration? we’ll bring anderson out and put another 70 on the board in 5 overs. we did what we wanted, they were forced along for the ride. cummins looked lost. he’ll be getting all kinds of stick back home. exactly how it always used to be for us and our captains. we always picked the wrong side, bowled the wrong deliveries, read the pitch and the match wrong. most of their bowlers looked confused, their batsmen unsure what their focus was. there was too long left to try and survive whilst 270 behind. ego meant they wanted to wrestle control back and show they were top dogs. that simply doesn’t happen with an earlier declaration. expecting england to score at 7 an over for 100 overs, and knock australia over twice in the same amount of overs, to win a test match, on a decent deck, in 3.x days, is quite simply cuckoo land.

if australia retain the ashes due to the weather, so be it. it’ll suck but it would always be hard to win the ashes with only 4 tests, knowing they only need to draw the series to retain them. we’ve seen how negative cummins has been all series, and it’s only getting worse. they packed their team to bat out a draw this test. giving them more time to do that and no scoreboard pressure wasn’t the solution to win this in three and a bit days. there was no winning this in three and a bit days.

i firmly believe an earlier declaration only helped us take a couple more aussies wickets yesterday, at the cost of a boat load of runs. to take ten wickets yesterday, we needed to bowl all day. we’d be looking at needing 250-300 in maybe a session of cricket, on a sticky wicket, whilst potentially only getting the overs in, in small batches. we’ve more chance of taking 6 wickets in that scenario.

if australia retain them, they won’t deserve it. go back 1 year and none of us in our wildest dreams, could have believed that. yesterday was the first time this didn’t feel like an experiment that was waiting to blow up in our faces. yesterday was the first time i felt that this set up could make us a truly spectacular side, capable of blowing anyone away, in any conditions. this test has shown whoever wants to replace broad and anderson, whoever wants to displace bairstow or crawley, what it takes and what they need to be. this test showed australia fear us and that’s enough for me. this is bigger than the ashes, this showed that this team might be set for domination. i’ll take the draw or a loss of one series for that.
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This is it really. We’ve got from nearly setting a record for team ducks to a calendar year to bullying one of the best attacks in the world, in under 2 years. It’s so completely against English cricket culture too, we’ve got a guy bowling 90 mph rockets and a batsmen reverse scooping their best bowlers over the slips for 6. England deserve to win this test and have parity in this series but if they don’t get that I’ve still enjoyed the hell out of these 3 days.

This series is probably the first time where I fully get what teams go on about when they talk caring about processes more than end results.
 
croadyman said:
Fecking hell ICC where is the reserve day you had in place for the WTC final. Wonder if Stokes & Brook are wishing they went harder in evening session of day 2.
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Bet they wish they built a massive gazebo over Old Trafford.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
Not a chance there's any play today.

Been pissing it down for about 4 or 5 hours non stop.
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Radar on Met Office is suggesting a window between 12 - 15:30 but as you say there’s been so much rain it’s going to take a while to mop up. Maybe an hour and a half if we’re lucky.
 
arnie_ni said:
Those 40 overs were when it was fabulous for batting. Australia could be sitting with a 200 run lead and still be 6 down and England with no time to bat again. They tried to take it down to a 3 innings match, shorten the game and wanted Australia to be batting in between rain sessions, stop start, with cloud cover, when it's difficult, not themselves.

England are the most aggressive team in the world atm and didn't declare. Think about that for a second.
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You’re guessing as much as I am. The conditions were the same throughout the day and we took four of their top order wickets. Odds are that they definitely wouldn’t have been able to score 300 for 6 wickets.

Anyway, I honestly won’t bother discussing this any more. I think I’ve made my point enough. Let’s hope we can get a couple more hours in somewhere.
 
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