English cricket thread

DiseaseOfTheAge said:
As pleased as I am with them surviving til lunch, it's not great that both openers got caught legside.
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The first one was fair enough I thought. It was a fast, short ball and he fended it to leg slip. He could have taken it on the body but that's easy for us to say isn't it.

The second one was sloppy, sure, but you see players get out like that all the time.
 
I have stated before on here that I’ve only recently started to watch and enjoy cricket, and even that is limited to watching the England test side. But the consensus I’m led to believe is that Joe Root is comfortably England’s best batsman and among the best in the world, is this just hyperbole from the British press, or is he actually world class and either finished at this level, or just woefully out of form?. Because in the admittedly limited times I’ve seen him, he seems average.
 
Nico87 said:
I have stated before on here that I’ve only recently started to watch and enjoy cricket, and even that is limited to watching the England test side. But the consensus I’m led to believe is that Joe Root is comfortably England’s best batsman and among the best in the world, is this just hyperbole from the British press, or is he actually world class and either finished at this level, or just woefully out of form?. Because in the admittedly limited times I’ve seen him, he seems average.
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He's quality, I think the captaincy has negatively affected him. Before that he was truly one of the best batsmen in the world, certainly not limited.
 
Was going to post before tea that England went too slowly in the second part of that afternoon session.

Up to the mid-way point they got it spot on, but then they got into a bit of a hole. Denly started well but could have been more aggressive in that half an hour before tea.

As the old adage goes, you add a couple of wickets to the score and it doesn't look so great.

Still, looks like 350 will be a competitive total so hopefully we can get there.
 
Fiskey said:
He's quality, I think the captaincy has negatively affected him. Before that he was truly one of the best batsmen in the world, certainly not limited.
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Yeah he's great. Giving him the captaincy was a mistake for me. Hopefully it passes to Burns before the next Ashes.
 
Good day for England in the end. This isn't a perfect pitch by any means and we've got into a good position with that partnership at the end,

As @Utdstar01 says, Ollie Pope looks a mega-talent.
 
JohnnyKills said:
We've already got lots of bowlers who bowl mid-high 80s though. We need someone who can come in and bowl short burst in the early-mid 90s, just like Johnson did for Australia when they smashed us in 13-14.

The problem we're going to have is that Wood and Stokes are short, sharp bowlers too, so we're going to need someone who can bowl long spells. Bess is going to be crucial in the team going forward I reckon.
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I don't agree with that. My reading of England's quicks are:

Curran - Low 80s
C. Overton - Low 80s
Anderson - Low 80s, hit mid 80s this tour which was surprising, not got long left.
Woakes - Low to mid 80s (hit 90 in the World Cup but his stock pace is as described), has knee problems.
Stokes - Mid 80s, can dial it up, also has knee problems.
Broad - Mid 80s
Archer - Mid to high 80s, can really crank it up if need be.
Wood - High 80s and early 90s, often injured.
Stone - High 80s and early 90s, always injured.

You look at that and really the number 1 priority should be keeping Archer healthy. I think Archer knows his own game pretty well and should be managed as such, the smarter thing to do is to groom him to take over Anderson's role.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
I don't agree with that. My reading of England's quicks are:

Curran - Low 80s
C. Overton - Low 80s
Anderson - Low 80s, hit mid 80s this tour which was surprising, not got long left.
Woakes - Low to mid 80s (hit 90 in the World Cup but his stock pace is as described), has knee problems.
Stokes - Mid 80s, can dial it up, also has knee problems.
Broad - Mid 80s
Archer - Mid to high 80s, can really crank it up if need be.
Wood - High 80s and early 90s, often injured.
Stone - High 80s and early 90s, always injured.

You look at that and really the number 1 priority should be keeping Archer healthy. I think Archer knows his own game pretty well and should be managed as such, the smarter thing to do is to groom him to take over Anderson's role.
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Good analysis. Jamie Overton is another one who can crank up to 90 but is regularly injured.
 
JohnnyKills said:
We've already got lots of bowlers who bowl mid-high 80s though. We need someone who can come in and bowl short burst in the early-mid 90s, just like Johnson did for Australia when they smashed us in 13-14.

The problem we're going to have is that Wood and Stokes are short, sharp bowlers too, so we're going to need someone who can bowl long spells. Bess is going to be crucial in the team going forward I reckon.
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Even Johnson did it only for a couple of series. What you describe is nowhere close to the norm.

Archer seems talented enough to be a first choice bowler who uses seam and control at good pace - in the mould of Rabada/Steyn. Root's flogging him.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
I don't agree with that. My reading of England's quicks are:

Curran - Low 80s
C. Overton - Low 80s
Anderson - Low 80s, hit mid 80s this tour which was surprising, not got long left.
Woakes - Low to mid 80s (hit 90 in the World Cup but his stock pace is as described), has knee problems.
Stokes - Mid 80s, can dial it up, also has knee problems.
Broad - Mid 80s
Archer - Mid to high 80s, can really crank it up if need be.
Wood - High 80s and early 90s, often injured.
Stone - High 80s and early 90s, always injured.

You look at that and really the number 1 priority should be keeping Archer healthy. I think Archer knows his own game pretty well and should be managed as such, the smarter thing to do is to groom him to take over Anderson's role.
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It really isn't mate. If we keep producing attacks without any pace, we'll keep getting smashed overseas. We've finally got some genuine pace and we're talking about him cutting back?

If we're going to replace Anderson, we should look for a similar type of bowler.
 
zing said:
Even Johnson did it only for a couple of series. What you describe is nowhere close to the norm.

Archer seems talented enough to be a first choice bowler who uses seam and control at good pace - in the mould of Rabada/Steyn. Root's flogging him.
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Johnson only peaked late in his career though didn't he. With better coaching he might have been able to do that for longer.

You're right though, Root is flogging him. Someone else needs to do the donkey work.
 
Cliche alert but the morning session will be crucial tomorrow.

If Stokes and Pope can push on and get big scores then we'll be right in the driving seat, but at the same time if they get an early wicket and then we do the usual England collapse and we're all out for 280-300 then we might be up against it.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
Cliche alert but the morning session will be crucial tomorrow.

If Stokes and Pope can push on and get big scores then we'll be right in the driving seat, but at the same time if they get an early wicket and then we do the usual England collapse and we're all out for 280-300 then we might be up against it.
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Yep, massively. Reckon 350 will be a good score.
 
JohnnyKills said:
It really isn't mate. If we keep producing attacks without any pace, we'll keep getting smashed overseas. We've finally got some genuine pace and we're talking about him cutting back?

If we're going to replace Anderson, we should look for a similar type of bowler.
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Half the battle with fast bowlers is about making them feel comfortable and supported. It should be emphasised that is doubly important for Archer who was questioned coming into the England setup and has had to endure racist abuse.

After his debut I felt that he should be used similarly to Johnson but having observed Archer since and reflected on the idea I think it would be unfair on him. Test cricket is hard, Archer needs to learn the rhythms and nuances of the game but the way England are managing expectations around him and using him is preventing him from doing that.

When he has bowled very fast it has occurred as a fit of inspiration rather than a specific design from captain and bowler. The spell to Smith at Lords might have been motivated by Langer's comments about his stamina and the spell at the Oval to Wade was undoubtedly motivated by stuff said out in the middle (we should remember he didn't take the wickets of the 2 batsmen he was battling with in these spells). Simply asking Archer to produce these fits of inspiration a few times a day when he himself might not be completely sure how they come about is not allowing him to feel comfortable and is not allowing him to deliver on his current skillset consistently.

When you also consider that there is no other quick in England coming through who is as skilled as Archer and that Anderson's body is rapidly failing him then I think it would be more prudent for England to develop him to succeed Anderson in the short-term as they figure out how they get Archer into the 'zone' on a more consistent basis. This is not so much a request to permanently hold him back but more a desire to see a huge talent managed and developed with the care he deserves. I'm not entirely confident that Root has it within him to bring him along.
 
Great spot by Pollock re: Pope walking out of his crease.

Can easily see that being relayed from the SA dressing room to the bowlers in Afrikaans and Pope being mankaded in the very near future.
 
Pope getting runs at 6 and immediately the commentators start talking about moving him to 3. You'd thought we'd learn after we broke Root.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Pope getting runs at 6 and immediately the commentators start talking about moving him to 3. You'd thought we'd learn after we broke Root.
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Haha, exactly, we can never be satisfied. If someone is making runs, why can't they be making better runs? Archer taking wickets bowling 86mph, why can't he take wickets bowling 95mph.
 
Rabada has been banned for the 4th test for an incident I'm absolutely certain none of us can remember.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Rabada has been banned for the 4th test for an incident I'm absolutely certain none of us can remember.
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Really annoying. Difficult for South Africa too due to the quotas. Probably means Bavuma back for the next test.
 
12OunceEpilogue said:
What's he saying?

Stokes joins Sobers, Botham, Dev, Hooper, Kallis and Vettori in the 4,000 Test runs, 100 Test wickets club.
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Had a big argument with Holding about Rabada being banned for the next test. He thinks it's a ridiculous decsion, Holding was trying to explain to him that it's because of an accumulaiton of demerit points but he didn't seem to understand.
 
dbs235 said:
Had a big argument with Holding about Rabada being banned for the next test. He thinks it's a ridiculous decsion, Holding was trying to explain to him that it's because of an accumulaiton of demerit points but he didn't seem to understand.
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Gough was the same on Talksport, with Pollock (separately, so no fireworks) making the analogy of driving points where a few innocuous parking tickets and speeding fines add up to serious consequences even if none of the offences were that bad. Rabada has admitted guilt so there are no grounds for appeal, and though every Saffer, neutral and to be honest a fair few English fans would want the best players on the field this is the situation, and hopefully if he wants to celebrate vigorously in future he'll do it a bit further away from his opponents, as cricketing authorities can be a sensitive lot.
 
12OunceEpilogue said:
Gough was the same on Talksport, with Pollock (separately, so no fireworks) making the analogy of driving points where a few innocuous parking tickets and speeding fines add up to serious consequences even if none of the offences were that bad. Rabada has admitted guilt so there are no grounds for appeal, and though every Saffer, neutral and to be honest a fair few English fans would want the best players on the field this is the situation, and hopefully if he wants to celebrate vigorously in future he'll do it a bit further away from his opponents, as cricketing authorities can be a sensitive lot.
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I think the problem with this analogy is that what Rabada did yesterday was soooooo minor it seems ridiculous to even consider it worthy of a demerit point.

I think it's a bit like getting caught doing 31 in a 30 to borrow your driving analogy. Sure, technically, you were speeding and I guess would be within your rights to receive a ticket (although you never would), but you'd feel like it's incredibly harsh, wouldn't you?

Rabada was pumped up, and shouldn't have got that close to Root, and it was of course pretty aggressive, but who honestly cares?

I genuinely don't think there'd have been even a shred of indignation if the ICC completely ignored it and I think it's perfectly within the limits of acceptability in a game where we expect people to be ultra-competitive and all accept hurling a big lump of cork at someones head as an acceptable tactic.
 
Poor from Buttler. He should just play his natural game in the test team. He's trying to turn himself into a responsible batsman and it isn't working.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I think the problem with this analogy is that what Rabada did yesterday was soooooo minor it seems ridiculous to even consider it worthy of a demerit point.

I think it's a bit like getting caught doing 31 in a 30 to borrow your driving analogy. Sure, technically, you were speeding and I guess would be within your rights to receive a ticket (although you never would), but you'd feel like it's incredibly harsh, wouldn't you?

Rabada was pumped up, and shouldn't have got that close to Root, and it was ever of course pretty aggressive, but who honestly cares?

I genuinely don't think there'd have been even a shred of indignation if the ICC completely ignored it and I think it's perfectly within the limits of acceptability in a game where we expect people to be ultra-competitive and all accept hurling a big lump of cork at someones head as an acceptable tactic.
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Pollock's :) but I can see where you're coming from, it was a nothing incident and we all like to see a bit of personality in cricket. I suppose the demerit point system is in place so that without banning players left right and centre the authorities can more gently discourage conduct they deem to be over the line, the trouble being the position and width of that particular line is very much in the eye of the beholder.

JohnnyKills said:
Great opportunity for Buttler here. He'll probably get out for 0 now though.
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Pretty much
 
NinjaFletch said:
I think the problem with this analogy is that what Rabada did yesterday was soooooo minor it seems ridiculous to even consider it worthy of a demerit point.

I think it's a bit like getting caught doing 31 in a 30 to borrow your driving analogy. Sure, technically, you were speeding and I guess would be within your rights to receive a ticket (although you never would), but you'd feel like it's incredibly harsh, wouldn't you?

Rabada was pumped up, and shouldn't have got that close to Root, and it was of course pretty aggressive, but who honestly cares?

I genuinely don't think there'd have been even a shred of indignation if the ICC completely ignored it and I think it's perfectly within the limits of acceptability in a game where we expect people to be ultra-competitive and all accept hurling a big lump of cork at someones head as an acceptable tactic.
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What are the rules there for then? Surely there's no difference between breaking them a little bit and breaking them a lot?

Agree that Rabada's offence was trivial, but if he's done it a few times, then fair enough. Surely he knew what the rules were about celebrations beforehand?

The driving analogy doesn't really work as it's not cumulative. So, if you're caught doing 37 in a 30, the traffic police don't consider your previous infractions when deciding whether to issue you a ticket. A better analogy is football, where players often get booked for an accumulation of petty fouls.

Anyway, hopefully it gets overturned. He's a great bowler and if England are going to win, you want it to be against the best players.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Poor from Buttler. He should just play his natural game in the test team. He's trying to turn himself into a responsible batsman and it isn't working.
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I feel sorry for Buttler. He looks totally confused between 3 formats and it seems he can't adapt his t20 heroics into longer formats.

The real test will be to see is he can recall his t20 prowess in this seasons IPL, to set him up for upcoming t20 world cup.
 
JohnnyKills said:
What are the rules there for then? Surely there's no difference between breaking them a little bit and breaking them a lot?

Agree that Rabada's offence was trivial, but if he's done it a few times, then fair enough. Surely he knew what the rules were about celebrations beforehand?

The driving analogy doesn't really work as it's not cumulative. So, if you're caught doing 37 in a 30, the traffic police don't consider your previous infractions when deciding whether to issue you a ticket. A better analogy is football, where players often get booked for an accumulation of petty fouls.

Anyway, hopefully it gets overturned. He's a great bowler and if England are going to win, you want it to be against the best players.
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He's said in the past he needs to change and stop getting himself into trouble and it obviously hasn't worked so maybe this is the push he needs to achieve his aims in that respect.
 
JohnnyKills said:
What are the rules there for then? Surely there's no difference between breaking them a little bit and breaking them a lot?

Agree that Rabada's offence was trivial, but if he's done it a few times, then fair enough. Surely he knew what the rules were about celebrations beforehand?

The driving analogy doesn't really work as it's not cumulative. So, if you're caught doing 37 in a 30, the traffic police don't consider your previous infractions when deciding whether to issue you a ticket. A better analogy is football, where players often get booked for an accumulation of petty fouls.

Anyway, hopefully it gets overturned. He's a great bowler and if England are going to win, you want it to be against the best players.
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No, but points on your licence are. If you'd picked up 9 points and the thing that got you banned from driving was 31 in a 30 you'd be livid. Sure, in that situation as in this, people would point out that you should be more careful when you're toeing the line, and I accept that, but I do think it's an overzealous interpretation of: "using language, actions or gestures which disparage or which could provoke an aggressive reaction from a batter upon his/her dismissal during an International Match".

Sure, give Buttler a demerit point for what he did last match, sure have a quiet word with Rabada and tell him that it's a bit much, but I think if that 'provoked an aggressive reaction' from Root it would say much more about Root than Rabada.
 
Think that's the first time we've scored over 400 in the first innings since Root became captain.
 
sammsky1 said:
I feel sorry for Buttler. He looks totally confused between 3 formats and it seems he can't adapt his t20 heroics into longer formats.

The real test will be to see is he can recall his t20 prowess in this seasons IPL, to set him up for upcoming t20 world cup.
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I think this tour should probably be the end of him as a test player, as much as I'm a huge fan of his. Bairstow and Foakes moving forward.
 
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