England v India 2021 Cricket Test Series

ryan_forlan said:
Semantics?
You made a claim about Dominating white ball cricket.
Which someone found laughable and laughed at it.
Ever since the you and @TheGame have been tagging him and poking him and asking him to explain. Conveniently, while doing this either of you has never referred to "Domination white ball cricket", but talking about the stream of white ball cricketers.
If you don't think England has dominated white ball cricket, just take it back. And say that you exaggerated, you just wanted to bring up the "streaming in of talented players". I am sure KM will take his emoji (that you are so offended by) back.

Also, please stop pretending that this about his English fans comment, as it came much after the posts that I am talking about.

Also, I don't think he said he hates the english. He made a comment about English sports fans and how annoying they are. I don't agree with him, but stop this "english hate" nonsense.
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To be fair, the original claim that started this childish back and forth was merely that England have lost focus on test cricket, and have an excellent stock of white ball players but can't field a functional 11 in test cricket. That was the original point. Its been turned into a one sided debate about the difference between being the best in the world and dominating, which is a pedantic difference given it wasn't the pertinent to that original point, and the original poster has shown no interest in debating the difference nor how England's white ball team compares to past great white ball teams.

How about we all keep this thread clean and talk about this test series, nobody wants to trawl through pages of bullshit.
 
Trequarista10 said:
To be fair, the original claim that started this childish back and forth was merely that England have lost focus on test cricket, and have an excellent stock of white ball players but can't field a functional 11 in test cricket. That was the original point. Its been turned into a one sided debate about the difference between being the best in the world and dominating, which is a pedantic difference given it wasn't the pertinent to that original point, and the original poster has shown no interest in debating the difference nor how England's white ball team compares to past great white ball teams.

How about we all keep this thread clean and talk about this test series, nobody wants to trawl through pages of bullshit.
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To be fair there's a 9 day break and I don't think there's particularly much to discuss about here right now.
 
KM said:
To be fair there's a 9 day break and I don't think there's particularly much to discuss about here right now.
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Better this thread has 9 posts in 9 days that are relevant than 9 pages of nonsense.
 
KM said:
No pressure on Rory Burns? I don't think he looks particularly impressive. I think Malan at 3 is a guarantee. Wood shouldn't play in third test, he looked visibly injured at the end of his spell.
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He had some good scores before this series. He’s the best of the openers so he will keep his place. We can’t even replace one opener let alone two but he has done ok. The number 3 position is an equal problem.
 
Inigo Montoya said:
Root is at the top of the list of highest % run scorers for country. Nearly 30%...it's absurd that a team is depending on that
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Shows just how good Root is and conversely how awful the rest are. And England bowling attack is pretty poor, James Anderson aside. And at 39, England still rely on him far too heavily. Still looking quite fit though.
 
Buster15 said:
Shows just how good Root is and conversely how awful the rest are. And England bowling attack is pretty poor, James Anderson aside. And at 39, England still rely on him far too heavily. Still looking quite fit though.
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Yup all the focus is on the batting but it’s actually the bowling which has been the bigger disappointment for me
 
Buster15 said:
Shows just how good Root is and conversely how awful the rest are. And England bowling attack is pretty poor, James Anderson aside. And at 39, England still rely on him far too heavily. Still looking quite fit though.
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Just looked up his recent stats and noticed something potentially quite worrying. In his 4 home test matches this year, he hasn't taken any wickets in the second innings. Is this down to chance, or a sign he's struggling physically later in games?

Admittedly only bowled a few overs in two of those innings...
 
Back on here after a weekend at the Utd game then straight onto Lords yesterday.

An utterly miserable England performance, the whole teams body language is appalling. The 9 day break is much needed or India would steamroll us.
 
Normally in this situation England would put out the greenest pitch they possibly can. Will they risk it this time with their fragile batting line up against this Indian bowling attack?
 
Skills said:
Normally in this situation England would put out the greenest pitch they possibly can. Will they risk it this time with their fragile batting line up against this Indian bowling attack?
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I'm not sure it particularly matters what kind of wicket it is in this series. England just need to play better Cricket.
 
KM said:
Another time for this perhaps but Dhoni is genuinely one of the most overrated and worst Test captains India has ever had. We looked completely rubbish in overseas test. There's no doubt in my mind that bowlers like Siraj wouldn't have got gametime under him.
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I sort of agree. We are where we are right now because of Kohli and the mentality hes instilled. Never understood the hate he gets from Indian and other fans. I love the guy. Hes the GOAT of Indian cricket as much as some may dislike me saying that. I love this Indian team.

Siraj aside, Shami and Ishant would never have improved under MS. No disrespect to Dhoni, he was incredible in many other aspects.
 
Trequarista10 said:
Just looked up his recent stats and noticed something potentially quite worrying. In his 4 home test matches this year, he hasn't taken any wickets in the second innings. Is this down to chance, or a sign he's struggling physically later in games?

Admittedly only bowled a few overs in two of those innings...
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Didn't realise that. Although, traditionally, the second innings does tend to be more about spinners.
Nevertheless, easily the best seam bowler I have ever seen. So accurate. Line and length.
And swing.
 
Skills said:
Not really. India can barely put up a middle order
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The middle order has been in poor form for a while, and the management has elected to be patient with them given their past showings. There are enough players who are ready and waiting in the wings for their chance.

VP said:
Anyway, am I the only one who thinks international cricket is fecked as a sport? The gulf in quality, resources and interest in cricket between India and the rest is massive. India could put up four XIs and three would be in the top five in the world (in all formats).
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While India can put 2-3 international level teams at the same time, they still haven't found the mentality to be as ruthless as the 90s 'straya. Even in the last test match, India shouldn't have needed a miracle 9th wicket partnership from two bowlers, and England crumbling in 60 overs. But they needed that because of an out of form middle order and a phenomenal showing from Root. So their matches are still quite fun, but I can see them dominating the game ruthlessly in a few years.
 
KM said:
Another time for this perhaps but Dhoni is genuinely one of the most overrated and worst Test captains India has ever had. We looked completely rubbish in overseas test. There's no doubt in my mind that bowlers like Siraj wouldn't have got gametime under him.
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He gave up before the game started, and would parrot out cliches about the process. He was extremely defensive in captaincy.

The fast bowling resurgence is all Kohli who goes out to win always.
 
All this talk of India being able to put 3-4 teams is so funny considering they just lost to NZ in the WTC final and haven’t won an icc tournament in 8 years
 
zing said:
He gave up before the game started, and would parrot out cliches about the process. He was extremely defensive in captaincy.

The fast bowling resurgence is all Kohli who goes out to win always.
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Remember the time when he called RP Singh back from USA and played him in a match against England in which he was unsurprisingly crap?
 
KM said:
Another time for this perhaps but Dhoni is genuinely one of the most overrated and worst Test captains India has ever had. We looked completely rubbish in overseas test. There's no doubt in my mind that bowlers like Siraj wouldn't have got gametime under him.
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Agreed. He was very average Test captain. His only big win was winning a series in NZ. Apart from that he was poor.
 
KM said:
Pretty much this. England are no in way dominating white ball cricket at this moment. Yes, they won the world cup and are the best team in the world in LOI but the gap between the others isn't that big. Dominating is what that Australia team did in 1999-2007 where they eviscerated more or less every team they came against. Anyone with even minimal cricket knowledge will agree with whatever I'm saying. I suspect that English fans were bitter and sore after last night's defeat and that's why took offence to my laughing smiley, hopefully they see sense today.
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Bloody hell. What a dominating side that was. Pity I'm a little too "young" (I don't get to say that too often so let me enjoy it) to have witnessed that all conquering West Indian side.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
Yup all the focus is on the batting but it’s actually the bowling which has been the bigger disappointment for me
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Missing Stokes, Woakes, Archer and Broad. At least 2-3 of those would have started in this test. Stokes is a massive loss with bat and ball and Woakes has a great record in England. Robinson has been a great find though.
 
TheGame said:
Means nothing really. Averages 50 in FC cricket. One of England’s better batsmen. Suspect he will go to 5 and Bairstow to 3.
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I think the point was, the irony in beckoning for his recall then he gets a duck, not that he lacks ability :lol:
 
KM said:
Remember the time when he called RP Singh back from USA and played him in a match against England in which he was unsurprisingly crap?
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:lol: This sounds like a made up story from club cricket but this actually happened.
 
TheGame said:
Missing Stokes, Woakes, Archer and Broad. At least 2-3 of those would have started in this test. Stokes is a massive loss with bat and ball and Woakes has a great record in England. Robinson has been a great find though.
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Agree. If we've learned anything so far it's just how deep England's bowling stocks go.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
All this talk of India being able to put 3-4 teams is so funny considering they just lost to NZ in the WTC final and haven’t won an icc tournament in 8 years
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Think India's red-ball team is in a similar position to our white-ball team: not necessarily the best first XI in the world but lots of quality in depth.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
All this talk of India being able to put 3-4 teams is so funny considering they just lost to NZ in the WTC final and haven’t won an icc tournament in 8 years
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I think they'd probably beat NZ in most other conditions. Must say NZ do well considering they all want to play rugby. What's their secret!?
 
I watch plenty of cricket on TV but have never really played the game. I have to admit, I find it so frustrating!

In what other sport would consistent failure be tolerated, as it is with the England batting line-up?

I can't comment on their technique, as I lack the knowledge, but surely the nature of our collapses and the way players get out suggests we're selecting players who are mentally unprepared, as much as anything else?

What's the issue here? My own theory, could be total nonsense, is that County cricket is absolutely no barometer for how successful a batsmen will be once they are out in the middle in a Test match, facing 90mph deliveries when the team are 3 for 1 (or similar). We seem to stick with players who have scored runs at County level, but clearly the same players prove incapable of making the step-up time and time again.

Surely there is an argument for saying we need to stop worrying too much about technique and more about who has the mentality to go out and show some personality? Currently, it feels as if our top order are just hopelessly looking to survive, rather than go out and play some shots.
 
Lentwood said:
I watch plenty of cricket on TV but have never really played the game. I have to admit, I find it so frustrating!

In what other sport would consistent failure be tolerated, as it is with the England batting line-up?

I can't comment on their technique, as I lack the knowledge, but surely the nature of our collapses and the way players get out suggests we're selecting players who are mentally unprepared, as much as anything else?

What's the issue here? My own theory, could be total nonsense, is that County cricket is absolutely no barometer for how successful a batsmen will be once they are out in the middle in a Test match, facing 90mph deliveries when the team are 3 for 1 (or similar). We seem to stick with players who have scored runs at County level, but clearly the same players prove incapable of making the step-up time and time again.

Surely there is an argument for saying we need to stop worrying too much about technique and more about who has the mentality to go out and show some personality? Currently, it feels as if our top order are just hopelessly looking to survive, rather than go out and play some shots.
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I do think you have to bear in mind how unforgiving cricket is as a sport, more so than the majority of other team sports. With batting in particular, all it takes is one momentary lapse and that's the end of your innings, unlike in football or rugby where if you fluff a chance you usually get the chance to atone. It's also unusually individual as a team sport in that getting out is almost always squarely your fault, so there's no sharing the culpability with your teammates when you make a mistake and get out.

I think all of that compounds to make it one of the most mentally challenging sports around, so you're right that the ability to deal with that is a big part of what the selectors should be looking for, but it's also really hard to find people who can maintain that mentality consistently and even the best often struggle with losses of confidence that can lead to long-running form issues. I can't really think of a better alternative than county cricket as a training ground for Test, because there is no real substitute for the real thing, but there probably is more that could be done to deal with the issues of players struggling between white ball/red ball mentality.

Perhaps there's more England could do behind the scenes to coach that kind of mental toughness into players, but I also think sometimes you just have periods where you don't have those kind of characters around and England may be in one of those at the moment (plus the likes of Stokes being out, who is one of those characters who might be able to inject a bit of resilience). I think Root is also quite a placid captain and perhaps doesn't inspire that fight in people, although I don't see any better alternative right now so wouldn't move him on.
 
I look at India's starting 11 and wonder if Ashwin will ever get a chance in this series unless the pitch is real flat. Even though Shami hasn't been in good form, he has taken crucial wickets and showed he can carry himself with the bat as well. Siraj, Bumrah and Ishanth are undroppable at this point.
 
Spoony said:
I think they'd probably beat NZ in most other conditions. Must say NZ do well considering they all want to play rugby. What's their secret!?
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Yeah India are a good side, but I think it's fairly tight at the top of the test rankings at the moment. There's no outstanding team that's going to dominate for years.

On NZ - it is possible for a country to play more than one sport! English people love football but we've usually got a competitive rugby team too, right?
 
TheGame said:
Yeah can see it but he should be in the side from the start. The issue is he doesn’t batter higher than 5 for Surrey so we shouldn’t put him at 3. With him for Sibley. Need to move Bairstow up.
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I'd take the plunge and put Pope at 3 anyway.

As you say, the fact that he bats lower down for Surrey is not helpful but we've got to identify someone with potential and stick with them.

Trott didn't bat 3 in county cricket before he was picked there for England, right? (could be totally misinformed on that btw!)
 
Everybody does the hard work and Shastri /Kohli ICC event failure masters remain in charge.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Yeah India are a good side, but I think it's fairly tight at the top of the test rankings at the moment. There's no outstanding team that's going to dominate for years.

On NZ - it is possible for a country to play more than one sport! English people love football but we've usually got a competitive rugby team too, right?
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True, but there are more sheep than people in NZ, whereas England has a decent sized population that said folk aren't cricket mad here either.
 
So Sibley dropped and Malan in the squad.
Seems Hameed to open and Malan at 3.
 
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