England | right wing knuckle draggers on the streets

Think that'll be it for rioting now. Think the punishments being dished out (should be even harsher imo), and the amount of people having anti-protests will deter them.
I think the rioting is done. There might be a few attempts to get so called "peaceful protests" and rallies going etc over the next few weeks - with any luck they'll be back to their tiny core and easily outnumbered by counter protests. I do reckon a lot of the "fun" of getting drunk, throwing rocks and looting Greggs has gone and that's a start

I am still worried about places like immigration lawyers offices, rights centres, community groups getting targeted. I know they were already at risk, so maybe the actual risk or the precautions needed hasn't changed. I'm sure they're all thinking about it.

I do think the additional fear will take a while to subside though - but maybe the scale of the anti-protests will help a little.
 
Its a difficult topic and not one that's easy to summarise in short posts on a football forum.

Obviously what your grandma went through was racism. Of course white people can be subject to racism. White people in the UK who have other heritage who I know also maintain close links to that heritage, in the same way brown and black people do. The Poles, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Germans, French, Norwegians, Spaniards, Swiss etc etc who are either mixed or have decided to make London their home all continue to consider themselves at least partly from that culture and maintain aspects of it. They see no contrast or conflict at all between speaking Spanish at home, supporting Atletico, cooking paella, going to Spain every opportunity they get to visit family, being loud and warm etc etc, with also feeling British and loving living in this country.

But let's be completely clear on something. Its horrible to even use this term but its sadly true. They can visibly 'merge' into the local population in a way that Somalis or Ghanians or Chinese or Bengalis will not. Ever. I know Bengalis who have been here 3 generations. 3. They are so integrated. English their first language, all uni graduates, contribute to the economy and society, love this country (its their only country), some in mixed relationships. Yet all terrified by the recent activity, knowing that the colour of their skin will always mark them out to some.

Lee Anderson was piping up recently about 'migrants' taking over a hotel in his constituency. Turns out they were a group of nurses and their families having a nice break. Imagine that. Brown and Philipino nurses doing the jobs that white people in this country no longer see as worth doing and they get aired out by this idiot as migrants, while attacks are going on around the country on migrant hotels.

Going back to the Argentina/France thing, it again kind of emphasises the point. France has white players of other European ancestry in their squad. Did they make it into the song? Or do they just disappear when the racism comes out to play?

People can be both proud to be British (and have been British for generations) and still eat jollof rice or curry or whatever their national cuisine happens to be. And be proud of both. That isn't a logical inconsistency.

You're definitely right about it being difficult on a football forum!

I suppose in a way I'm saying that I think that if you were to add up all the parts of my identity when it comes to what I feel I am etc. then it can only ever come to 1 (the whole) or 100%. No person can be more than a sum of 1. I do take on some of my dad's side of the family as part of my personal identity. So if I'm acknowledging that I feel that, in a way I cannot consider myself exactly the same as someone who who doesn't have any of that in their identity. Their's is 100% one thing, whereas mine is less than that. In that sense I'm not just as British as anyone else, some will be more British than me, some less. I do not feel I can be 100% British and add the part that comes from elsewhere on top of that as it's more than 100% at that point and it doesn't make much sense to me. I don't mind saying some are more British than me when it comes to that at all.

In terms of legal matters, the way I'm treated and everything like that of course I hope to be treated equally and I want that for all for all people. That's a different realm or sphere to me I guess. Again, I've never faced any racism or anything like that and as you rightly point out that's not the same for all people. The most I've ever had is terms of being different when it comes to that is people commenting on my unusual last name and not in a derogatory way 99% of time although althought there's been once or twice when there was mcokery rather than any nastiness. Very rare though, and only minor. I can't say I've been through anything like some of the people you've listed there from different backgrounds or the nurses. I merge in a lot as you put it. I merge in more than someone who has come from Poland or Ukraine in recent years who may stand out because of their accent and in turn they may merge in more than Somalis, Ghanians, Chinese or Bengalis or people who a have one parent from one of those backgrounds.

The inconsistency I was talking about that they're only referring to the second of these larger pararagraphs I've typed here when they say that everyone is just as British as Everyone else. Probably just me nitpicking on people's choice of language, ignoring context although clarity always helps. It's all done from a good place I feel but saying I'm just as British as anyone else either erases a little part of my identity in my mind, or gives me that extra thing. 100% British plus extra so I'm 110% or 150% of a person which like I said doesn't makes sense to me if we're talking about it from the point of view of the first paragraph.

One way round all that might be to question what identity is or means, write it off as nothing, and some do indeed try to deconstruct Britishness or Englishness in particular as something that doesn't really exist. I've seen that plenty of times online. If people are going to do that I think it would only be fair to to deconstruct the part of people's idenitites that don't come from the UK for balance but that's never done in tandem by the same people. As such as I see them as disingenous. If writing off Britishness as an identity because there were Saxons, Normans, Celts, Jutes etc. which I've seen often, then one could easily write off the identities of people who ackowledge their background from countries whose borders were drawn up by Britain as an easy example. I don't want that, people naturally have an affinity with their heritage - some more than others, it's a personal thing.
 
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I was in both my pubs all day and night yesterday and at my first one where my customers are all older, mainly 55+ some retired, some close to it, and they were chatting and the general consensus was they agreed with the far rights position, l
Hjust not the vandalism, violence and looting. It wasn't a surprise to me but it still saddens me and pisses me off at the same time.

I stayed until the food service finished at 9 and went over the road to my other pub where the customers are younger I was probably the oldest (49). That pub has 4 screens and as.the Olympics finished the news came on and showed all the counter protests and a huge cheer went around the place. Everyone was talking about it and we're all in agreement that the racist, fascist cnuts need to feck off.

I know that's not an accurate reflection of views everywhere, but the point I'm getting at is that for all those out on the streets, there are twice as many if not more than aren't and many of those are hard working folk with decent jobs and families. This diseased and hateful mindset has always been there and sadly for some, it will always be there. But to sort this out properly there needs to be serious work done and the will to do it from both those from the UK and those who have come to live here. On top of all that, the Government have a big part to play as well. Severe sentences or punishments for racial hate crimes and speech and make it known that it's not acceptable and doesn't have a place in our society. They need to do more in supporting schools in educating students of all ethnicities and religions. They also need to find a way to crack down hard on the internet issues, especially social media sites.

I don't have a magic wand and certainly don't have all the answers, I wish I did. I just know that when all this madness on the streets stops, simply just going back to normal and sweeping it l under the carpet isn't going to work and it will come back again and again until real effort is put in to find the answers to tackle the problems and the root causes.
 
Had a peak at Tommy Robinson's twitter and I think the 100 announced riots/demonstrations was either a hoax, or they turned it into a hoax once they realised police and counter protestors massively outnumbered them.

Tommy Ten Names was tweeting "Look at all these police and counter protestors turning up for non-existent demonstrations, the threat is imaginary".

Sadly, for people who follow him, Musk, JP and Co, they may think it's truly imaginary as none of these people have shown their huge number of followers any of the many videos of thugs attacking mosques, refugee hotels, police, shops and running around the streets shouting racial slurs.
 
That’s where I’m from (feel like we may have had this chat before) - was sent this before. Looks like dispersal order did its job as besides a few thugs moaning in Facebook and tagging the police I didn’t see much of anything go down.

Yep. I live near Kingsway so if there was anything big going on, I think I would have heard, but there was nothing. The latest from Mr Edge:

Went out on my bike to look around town for disturbances and it was all quiet. Police stopped n searched me and give me a 24 hour dispersal notice

"look around town for disturbances" - i.e. seeing if his attempts at whipping up a storm worked
 
I think the rioting is done. There might be a few attempts to get so called "peaceful protests" and rallies going etc over the next few weeks - with any luck they'll be back to their tiny core and easily outnumbered by counter protests. I do reckon a lot of the "fun" of getting drunk, throwing rocks and looting Greggs has gone and that's a start

I am still worried about places like immigration lawyers offices, rights centres, community groups getting targeted. I know they were already at risk, so maybe the actual risk or the precautions needed hasn't changed. I'm sure they're all thinking about it.

I do think the additional fear will take a while to subside though - but maybe the scale of the anti-protests will help a little.

We've been through this in Ireland. The similarity is so similar it's actually horrible. Children were stabbed by someone who wasn't white and is probably mentally ill. Rumours were immediately spread the the assailant was a muslim recent immigrant. This caused a spontaneous outburst of rioting, fuelled by shit stirring from the far right, while most of the destruction came mainly from underprivileged kids grabbing a chance to smash stuff up. That dies down quickly enough but ever since we've had a fairly sustained targeting of migrant facilities, which is carried out specifically by the far right groups. It's grim and very depressing.
 
This diseased and hateful mindset has always been there and sadly for some, it will always be there. But to sort this out properly there needs to be serious work done and the will to do it from both those from the UK and those who have come to live here. On top of all that, the Government have a big part to play as well. Severe sentences or punishments for racial hate crimes and speech and make it known that it's not acceptable and doesn't have a place in our society. They need to do more in supporting schools in educating students of all ethnicities and religions. They also need to find a way to crack down hard on the internet issues, especially social media sites.

I genuinely don’t think that long term custodial sentences will do anything in this space. I also think that these people can be reached.

I’m always a fan of suggesting moon shot transformative nonsense, so why break the habit of a lifetime.

But imagine that most (excluding the violent offences who need jail) of these arrests lead to a rehabilitation program. Get these people in small numbers, into the Asylum system. Let them hear the stories of people fleeing absolute destitution and persecution. Let these thugs hear people that don’t look like them, tell them why they’re coming to England for help. Most say it’s because they expect British people to be kind.

They can stay on site for a month, help to cook and clean. Have open workshops with staff on site to allow those willing to tell stories to do so. Let those little englanders listen to a Mother talk about how many times she was raped. Or how a father wants to be here as his religion doesn’t allow him to work in his homeland and that he just wants to live and work and provide for a family. Or a married couple talk about their child that does as a result of a war we funded. Shit, teaching these dickheads how to cook ‘ethnic’ food would be positive.

Then, chuck an ankle monitor on the offender for two years. Hang a 3 year suspended sentence around his neck.

Doing all of that would be violently expensive. But nothing like as expensive as the latest round of riots will cost. I don’t think that’s wolf in the hen house stuff. These men (and it’s almost exclusively men) are weak willed, small minded, cowards. They’re not hardened criminals. They’re only brave in numbers. They’re weak as piss at the first point of challenge.

There has to be a redemptive path. Throwing them in prison for 1-3 years will do absolutely nothing to change their character. They’ll pop out the front door a worse person than that which went in.
 
I genuinely don’t think that long term custodial sentences will do anything in this space. I also think that these people can be reached.

I’m always a fan of suggesting moon shot transformative nonsense, so why break the habit of a lifetime.

But imagine that most (excluding the violent offences who need jail) of these arrests lead to a rehabilitation program. Get these people in small numbers, into the Asylum system. Let them hear the stories of people fleeing absolute destitution and persecution. Let these thugs hear people that don’t look like them, tell them why they’re coming to England for help. Most say it’s because they expect British people to be kind.

They can stay on site for a month, help to cook and clean. Have open workshops with staff on site to allow those willing to tell stories to do so. Let those little englanders listen to a Mother talk about how many times she was raped. Or how a father wants to be here as his religion doesn’t allow him to work in his homeland and that he just wants to live and work and provide for a family. Or a married couple talk about their child that does as a result of a war we funded. Shit, teaching these dickheads how to cook ‘ethnic’ food would be positive.

Then, chuck an ankle monitor on the offender for two years. Hang a 3 year suspended sentence around his neck.

Doing all of that would be violently expensive. But nothing like as expensive as the latest round of riots will cost. I don’t think that’s wolf in the hen house stuff. These men (and it’s almost exclusively men) are weak willed, small minded, cowards. They’re not hardened criminals. They’re only brave in numbers. They’re weak as piss at the first point of challenge.

There has to be a redemptive path. Throwing them in prison for 1-3 years will do absolutely nothing to change their character. They’ll pop out the front door a worse person than that which went in.

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment.
 
I genuinely don’t think that long term custodial sentences will do anything in this space. I also think that these people can be reached.

I’m always a fan of suggesting moon shot transformative nonsense, so why break the habit of a lifetime.

But imagine that most (excluding the violent offences who need jail) of these arrests lead to a rehabilitation program. Get these people in small numbers, into the Asylum system. Let them hear the stories of people fleeing absolute destitution and persecution. Let these thugs hear people that don’t look like them, tell them why they’re coming to England for help. Most say it’s because they expect British people to be kind.

They can stay on site for a month, help to cook and clean. Have open workshops with staff on site to allow those willing to tell stories to do so. Let those little englanders listen to a Mother talk about how many times she was raped. Or how a father wants to be here as his religion doesn’t allow him to work in his homeland and that he just wants to live and work and provide for a family. Or a married couple talk about their child that does as a result of a war we funded. Shit, teaching these dickheads how to cook ‘ethnic’ food would be positive.

Then, chuck an ankle monitor on the offender for two years. Hang a 3 year suspended sentence around his neck.

Doing all of that would be violently expensive. But nothing like as expensive as the latest round of riots will cost. I don’t think that’s wolf in the hen house stuff. These men (and it’s almost exclusively men) are weak willed, small minded, cowards. They’re not hardened criminals. They’re only brave in numbers. They’re weak as piss at the first point of challenge.

There has to be a redemptive path. Throwing them in prison for 1-3 years will do absolutely nothing to change their character. They’ll pop out the front door a worse person than that which went in.

3 years in prison, they might come out as muslim, or have more flexible attitudes towards homosexuality - it's not all bad.

In all seriousness, i don't think prison really reforms anymore - its under funded and overly privatised. Having said that - after the Bradford riots of 2001, our young men got hefty prison sentences, a lot of people remember that, and the threat of that was used to help remind people that a moments stupidity could have long standing consequences.
 


We can always rely on the Farage sympathisers pushing this 'two-tier policing' BS!

I'd love for him to challenge Farage to half of the degree he does here, during the thousands of times he pops up on that show!
 
3 years in prison, they might come out as muslim, or have more flexible attitudes towards homosexuality - it's not all bad.

In all seriousness, i don't think prison really reforms anymore - its under funded and overly privatised. Having said that - after the Bradford riots of 2001, our young men got hefty prison sentences, a lot of people remember that, and the threat of that was used to help remind people that a moments stupidity could have long standing consequences.

Threat of prison may blunt attendances, but it will never do anything to a fella that’s five pints deep with a nose full of the devils dandruff to not throw a brick.

If we had a rehabilitation program I’d happily have large attendances with the country seeing these fcuks at large, than have them squirrelled away in Whetherspoons across the land, talking shit into a pint of Madri.
 
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We can always rely on the Farage sympathisers pushing this 'two-tier policing' BS!

I'd love for him to challenge Farage to half of the degree he does here, during the thousands of times he pops up on that show!


Yes exactly. Fat Ferrari is always on the lookout for a sensationalist story to try and make himself look clever. If he stopped for a minute and checked he would know that the Manchester police incident has been handed over to an Inquest and the policeman has been suspended pending the outcome of that Inquiry. So is no longer a policing issue.
 
Scotland population makes up about 8% of the UK total. 22k out of 745k is about 3% so lower than expected if immigration was spread out evenly across the country. Immigration and general demographics doesn't work that way though. If you move to another country, then the likelihood is you will be moving to a major city for work/lifestyle. England has far more large cities than Scotland so will attract more people.

Same applies with internal migration. 80%+ of the UK population live in cites/urban areas. Pre-industrialisation, it was something like 10-15%. Scotland pre-industrialisation made up 20-30% of the total UK population compared to 8% today for context.

If people are willing to uproot themselves, then they will go to the places they think will give then the best outcomes and opportunities in life.


I suspect Glasgow has had far more immigration than the rest Scotland. Or at least on average.
 
Its a difficult topic and not one that's easy to summarise in short posts on a football forum.

Obviously what your grandma went through was racism. Of course white people can be subject to racism. White people in the UK who have other heritage who I know also maintain close links to that heritage, in the same way brown and black people do. The Poles, Italians, Greeks, Portuguese, Germans, French, Norwegians, Spaniards, Swiss etc etc who are either mixed or have decided to make London their home all continue to consider themselves at least partly from that culture and maintain aspects of it. They see no contrast or conflict at all between speaking Spanish at home, supporting Atletico, cooking paella, going to Spain every opportunity they get to visit family, being loud and warm etc etc, with also feeling British and loving living in this country.

But let's be completely clear on something. Its horrible to even use this term but its sadly true. They can visibly 'merge' into the local population in a way that Somalis or Ghanians or Chinese or Bengalis will not. Ever. I know Bengalis who have been here 3 generations. 3. They are so integrated. English their first language, all uni graduates, contribute to the economy and society, love this country (its their only country), some in mixed relationships. Yet all terrified by the recent activity, knowing that the colour of their skin will always mark them out to some.

Lee Anderson was piping up recently about 'migrants' taking over a hotel in his constituency. Turns out they were a group of nurses and their families having a nice break. Imagine that. Brown and Philipino nurses doing the jobs that white people in this country no longer see as worth doing and they get aired out by this idiot as migrants, while attacks are going on around the country on migrant hotels.

Going back to the Argentina/France thing, it again kind of emphasises the point. France has white players of other European ancestry in their squad. Did they make it into the song? Or do they just disappear when the racism comes out to play?

People can be both proud to be British (and have been British for generations) and still eat jollof rice or curry or whatever their national cuisine happens to be. And be proud of both. That isn't a logical inconsistency.

Fantastic post, this.

I've mentioned this a few times during the euros but my family is half Danish, half English. I was born and raised in London but I visit Denmark at least twice a year, often just take my laptop and work from my mum's house in Denmark for a week. The interesting bit is, despite one parent being from Denmark and the other being from London, ethnically they both originate from the same African country, so I speak that language too, I identify with that culture and I'm immersed in the growing community in London.

How would I even begin to explain that kind of interwoven cocktail of multiple different cultures and nationalities that exists within me that all form part of my identity to someone who just sees the black skin. I feel 100% British, as I was born and bred here, but I also have close links to two different countries, and a different continent. I feel somewhat Danish, and I definitely feel African too. I've met so many people with an interesting mix like that. They're all Londoners, and they're all English but identify with their Greek, Portuguese, Korean, Congolese etc part of their heritage too.
 
I genuinely don’t think that long term custodial sentences will do anything in this space. I also think that these people can be reached.

I’m always a fan of suggesting moon shot transformative nonsense, so why break the habit of a lifetime.

But imagine that most (excluding the violent offences who need jail) of these arrests lead to a rehabilitation program. Get these people in small numbers, into the Asylum system. Let them hear the stories of people fleeing absolute destitution and persecution. Let these thugs hear people that don’t look like them, tell them why they’re coming to England for help. Most say it’s because they expect British people to be kind.

They can stay on site for a month, help to cook and clean. Have open workshops with staff on site to allow those willing to tell stories to do so. Let those little englanders listen to a Mother talk about how many times she was raped. Or how a father wants to be here as his religion doesn’t allow him to work in his homeland and that he just wants to live and work and provide for a family. Or a married couple talk about their child that does as a result of a war we funded. Shit, teaching these dickheads how to cook ‘ethnic’ food would be positive.

Then, chuck an ankle monitor on the offender for two years. Hang a 3 year suspended sentence around his neck.

Doing all of that would be violently expensive. But nothing like as expensive as the latest round of riots will cost. I don’t think that’s wolf in the hen house stuff. These men (and it’s almost exclusively men) are weak willed, small minded, cowards. They’re not hardened criminals. They’re only brave in numbers. They’re weak as piss at the first point of challenge.

There has to be a redemptive path. Throwing them in prison for 1-3 years will do absolutely nothing to change their character. They’ll pop out the front door a worse person than that which went in.

That's a very valid point and I agree for the most part, however I think initially there has to be some kind of deterrent as lenient sentences don't discourage enough. Maybe a kind of mix of the two. Prison but with mandatory time served working in centres in the kitchens or cleaning etc?

Many are never going to change hence why work needs to be done in the schools and community as well as the courts.
 
32 months with them only serving half of it in prison is insulting. These scumbags will be out by the end of next year and wear that sentence like a badge of honour.

Not even that, it's 40% from next month due to prisons being full. Will be out by next summer.
 
32 months with them only serving half of it in prison is insulting. These scumbags will be out by the end of next year and wear that sentence like a badge of honour.

Will they be on a terror watch list?
 
This is what the Met police commissioner said about the people that have been arrested so far.

“Around 70% have previous convictions for weapon possession, violence, drugs and other serious offences. Some have football banning orders.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Metropolitan Police chief Sir Mark said: “I’m really pleased with how it went. We put thousands of officers on the streets and I think the show of force from the police and frankly, the show of unity from communities together defeated the challenges that we’ve seen.”

He also told the BBC the Met had been carrying out “dawn raids” on Thursday morning, searching for the most violent in the Whitehall protests and violence last week”, about 70% of whom have criminal backgrounds.

“We’ve got criminal damage, violence, weapons offences, football banning orders. These are criminal thugs,” Sir Mark said.

https://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk...d-show-police-force-public-unity---met-chief/
 
I think the rioting is done. There might be a few attempts to get so called "peaceful protests" and rallies going etc over the next few weeks - with any luck they'll be back to their tiny core and easily outnumbered by counter protests. I do reckon a lot of the "fun" of getting drunk, throwing rocks and looting Greggs has gone and that's a start

I am still worried about places like immigration lawyers offices, rights centres, community groups getting targeted. I know they were already at risk, so maybe the actual risk or the precautions needed hasn't changed. I'm sure they're all thinking about it.

I do think the additional fear will take a while to subside though - but maybe the scale of the anti-protests will help a little.

Yeah it will be done barring anything else stupid happening to re-incite it.

Its usually the same pattern with these things. Something kicks off in one location and then all the copycats think its their chance to go out and wreak havoc and get away with it. Then after the initial anger over whatever caused the trouble in the first place subsides, they suddenly don't have an excuse to hide behind and in the meantime have managed to piss off 99% of the population and make themselves into the target.

It'd be different if the unrest had an actual valid cause behind it, but without that all its got behind it is anger, which even in the case of people who might be swept in by far right views/tactics, is temporary in most cases and soon outweighed by the anger of their streets being left in a mess/friends, kids etc. feeling unsafe.

Hope that doesn't stop them rounding up and putting anyone they can behind bars though. Wouldn't usually feel that way but in this case I think its important to show its not part of what this country and society is willing to tolerate.
 
Have you ever spent a day in prison? You think even a year locked up is not a long time?

Not to mention that it almost certainly puts your chance of a decent job/career in the drain. Particularly for offences which suggest an employer can't trust you not to be racist/violent.

I know someone who works with the complaints handling for the NHS and they said they have over 50 staff now under investigation because they've been sent videos of them at the riots, making racist comments, etc. Any where the evidence is substantiated are going to lose their jobs once its investigated. Any where there's a criminal charge wont even last that long regardless of if there's a jail term involved. What a worthwhile thing to throw your career in the drain for.
 
32 months for a 69 year old for violent disorder and possession of a offensive weapon ffs.

They should be jailing the inciters too. Whether it's the fat cats in the papers, the paypal patriots on twitter or the coke addicts in Cyprus. Go hard on them all.
 
The one's I'm mainly watching out for are the ones that tried to set fire to the hotels. Need to be made an example of in the most egregious manner.
 


We can always rely on the Farage sympathisers pushing this 'two-tier policing' BS!

I'd love for him to challenge Farage to half of the degree he does here, during the thousands of times he pops up on that show!

I wouldn't give LBC the time of day anymore. I know there are some left leaning presenters on there but I think they are more there to give the channel legitimacy than because they are trying to be even handed.
 
The one's I'm mainly watching out for are the ones that tried to set fire to the hotels. Need to be made an example of in the most egregious manner.
They need to be charged with terror offences as they terrorised the people in the hotels.
 
It’s the irony of the whole situation for me. The rioters, whose culture has led to oppression and prejudices for how many years are finally feeling how minorities have for felt for decades. And the worse thing is their anger and hate are all built on lies.


I could feel this coming after the George Floyd protests and the fear racists felt that people weren’t accepting the status quo no more and that they would get exposed for what they are. That’s why even regardless of being proven otherwise they still believe their delusional rhetoric.


The issue is definitely bigger than recent events and will take a radical culture shift from the media and those in power to change perception and the blame/hate narrative.
 
Is it true that the homunculus that calls itself Katie Hopkins was posting the addresses of immigration lawfirms on twitter? If thats the case she should really be locked up for incitement and ringleading the violence.

I mean the same can be said for Tommeh (who needs to get nicked for avoiding a court order and becoming an essential fugitive) as well as Frottage. But I suspect the Labour government would be scared of touching the latter out of fear of upsetting the gammons they've been trying to court over the last few years.