Yes. Home advantage is bad and people will understandably moan about it. Like you are doing. That's what I said.
England in India 2021
- Thread starter TheGame
- Start date
Why should I be moaning when England are losing. I infact believe all the moaners should get on with it and improve their skills like England have to rather than talking about pitch this pitch that.
And I think you're just being precious caring so much about people moaning about something people are always gonna moan about.
We could've saved a lot of time here.
@AshRK What's the pink ball gonna be like? Never seen a pink ball test in India, I don't think.
And you equally guilty of caring about people pointing whiners about their hypocrisy.
Anyways meaningless argument. Time to enjoy some United football.
All matches have the chance of finishing in 2 days if one team simply can't cope with conditions. But a green wicket will tend to calm down, whilst a spinning one can deteriorate to the point at which it's unplayable.
But as you said, ENG/NZ - grassy top; Asia - Spin.
We're just experiencing this in it's extreme this match/the highlights you shared. Always has the chance of happening, and why it's so difficult in India for touring sides.
If I'm honest, I think the crowd has had just as much an effect on England as the pitch. There was no pressure in the first test. This one's been on edge the whole time.
Complete nonsense when in the last series, every test was won by the team batting first, no test (except the last one) went to a 5th day and teams couldn't even chase 200 in the final innings.
It was so bad that Joe Root got criticised for putting India in to bat first after winning a toss, in a test England lost.
Obviously, end result was England won all the tosses, and the series so it was all to do with the swing.
The ICC should appoint and monitor the groundsman. Surely if you're going to have neutral umpires you should have neutrals in charge of the pitch too.
From Dobell:
Moeen Ali, for example, delivered 10 full tosses and 19 short-of-a-length balls in the first innings of the match. By comparison, in the 49.5 overs of spin bowled by India in England's first innings, contained just one full toss. Had England been able to limit India to a score of around 250, they might have been able to compensate for losing the toss.
I imagine that works out at about one bad ball for every over Ali bowled. He bowls some magic balls but too much rubbish with it.
Moeen Ali, for example, delivered 10 full tosses and 19 short-of-a-length balls in the first innings of the match. By comparison, in the 49.5 overs of spin bowled by India in England's first innings, contained just one full toss. Had England been able to limit India to a score of around 250, they might have been able to compensate for losing the toss.
I imagine that works out at about one bad ball for every over Ali bowled. He bowls some magic balls but too much rubbish with it.
Yeah it was great wasn't it
This is a slightly unfair recount of the last series in England.
In the first test, India had a good shot at winning and fell short by 31 runs, the crucial difference being Sam Curran's lower order runs in the 3rd innings. Not a 5 day match but a very even contest.
In the second test, England winning the toss did allow them to get the best of the overhead conditions.
I am firmly of the belief that had Bumrah been available from the start of the series and not from the 3rd test England would not have been 2-0 up.
The 3rd test India won.
The 4th test, India had a narrow first innings lead and Moeen outbowled Ashwin on a pitch that turned.
The 5th test as you pointed out went to the 5th day.
India had enough decent opportunities over the series, even without winning the toss.
I think getting rid of toss would make more sense, if you were to change anything.
India would have won the last series in England if they were the beneficiary from the toss, instead of Root winning every toss in a series where batsmen from both teams were incapable of batting against swing on days 2 and onwards.
That's just because Indian quicks are/were as effective as English quicks on those pitches, whereas English spinners aren't as effective as Ashwin (or Jadeja) on a wearing Indian pitch.
It doesn't change the fact that winning the toss was a major advantage throughout the series.
Batting was incredibly hard from the second day of that first test, as was shown by England and India combined batting for 105 overs in their second innings on day 3 of a test.
The 2nd test, as you said, was win the toss and make the most of overcast conditions on day 1.
The only country which consistently produces sporting pitches that last the full 5 days is Australia.
I don't think you can say that the toss is a major advantage if both teams first innings basically cancel each other out, which happened in the 1st and 4th tests. I also think the toss was more of an advantage for England in the last test than India winning the toss for this test.
The problem is England doesn't have a monopoly on green pitches anymore. Unlike in past India have quality fast bowlers to match England. The issue with England at the moment is their lack of quality spin department. England wanted to change the rules on short-pitched bowling when West Indies had express paced bowlers and succeeded. Again, when Pakistan's bowlers mastered reverse swing it was considered cheating. Fortunately, Lord's bigwigs do not have a monopoly on rule changes and the semblance of power has shifted.
This test match has been a Rohit and Ashwin masterclass.
When you look at India's home record in the last 10 years, it really brings home how big of a miss India/Pakistan matches are.
I would agree with this statement if scoreboard pressure wasn't a real thing, and 4th innings scores have always been significantly worse than 3rd innings especially on unplayable pitches.
Warne agrees that the toss was more important in the 1st test of this series
To be fair, India are on a different level to Pakistan at the moment. Only 2 players presently playing for Pakistan would get into the Indian team. Babar Azam and Shaheen Shah Afridi.
Agreed, imagine the likes of Ajmal or Even Yasir Shah on this pitch. It would actually be an amazing contest with no clear winners.
Simply put India have a massive weakness against swing and moving ball. England are clueless against spin with the exception of Root. Everything else is ifs and buts.
I'm not sure Pakistan have the quality in their batting line-up who can play a long innings with the exception of Babar.
The team with Misbah and Younis would've put up a fight.
India have had 2 top quality spin options simultaneously though - while Yasir came after Ajmal.
Pakistan has a lost a generation of players not having cricket played in Pakistan and childish chest-thumping between India and Pakistan. Such a massive loss to the game.
Rizwan is pretty good, but yeah point taken, India is just far ahead of Pakistani team currently. But my actual point was if the pitch was spin friendly you would see a far even contest with Ajmal or Yasir bowling against this Indian team rather than England spinners.
I'm talking the present, bro. The IPL has been a massive boost for Indian cricket.
Yes, Rizwan has been a revelation lately. England spinners are not only average, but Indian batsmen have grown up on those pitches playing spin for a living. It's second nature.
This is bit of a cliche and I would disagree that India has a massive weakness against swing and moving ball. At least it is no more than England or Australia. Maybe NZ are good against swing but every team collapses in swinging conditions these days.
Toss is important in every game really. Virat said at the toss itself that this will be good for batting on day 1 and break down after that . There is no real rational way of saying which game toss was more important in .
If we take tosses out of the equation, I would rather watch Aus/India in England and India/SA in Australia. Series are very competitive and good value to watch.
No one really is competitive in India against a full-strength India.
Ajmal is around 45 and hasn't played tests for 7-8 years.This wouldn't have been a contest even on a spinning wicket. Pakistan don't have a reliable second spinner and the batting is easily a level below India's.
Warne agrees that the toss was more important in the 1st test of this series
There goes my credibility.
This is my takeaway too. England have won 3 of the 4 tests India have lost at home in the last decade which does not reflect very well on the rest of the cricketing world. Hence my statement about Pakistan, there have been some interesting India/Pakistan tests we've missed out on over that decade. I think India beat Pakistan quite handily at the moment however.
Complaints about the pitch are null and void when a guy makes 150+ on it.
This wouldn't have been a contest even on a spinning wicket. Pakistan don't have a reliable second spinner and the batting is easily a level below India's.
Actually I don't think I made it clear, my point was Ajmal at his peak against this Indian Batting would have been a contest. No doubt India is a stronger side and would win but the difference would not be as big as this. Lets say India would be bowled out for 175 and Pakistan 100, so eventually India would win but the match would actually be worth watching as a neutral compared to this one sided match.
Back to this thread, Hopefully the pitch for the next match is better and allows at least 5 days of cricket. The excitement of match hanging on a balance on the last day is the excitement of test cricket for me.
Always surprised Sri Lanka haven't done better in India.
As if Chris Woakes didn't score 137 in the lord's test people have quoted for a seaming wicket here
I think people are saying that England also prepare wickets that suit their team more as every team does so there's nothing wrong with India preparing a spinning wicket. It's not dangerous and clearly some people can make runs on it.
Good article that people should give a read.
"There was a time when England used to mistrust anyone who could reverse-swing the ball or bowl a doosra. Over time, as they have learned such skills, the scepticism has diminished. It's time to embark on a similar journey with turning pitches."
This is pretty much I said in a post above. They need to respect aspects of skills other teams possess required to win matches and not always scream foul when you cannot compete.
I am curious to see how the pitch plays as this will be the first game at this newly revamped stadium. I don't think it will be a turner like this one but may become like that for the 4th test. England should make sure to capitalize the 3rd test