It was a problem for many years but I think we are well-stocked at the moment if we select the right combination.
England Euro 2024 Squad and Discussion
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It was a problem for many years but I think we are well-stocked at the moment if we select the right combination.
Yep, but by the looks of things, Mainoo won’t play CM a single time during the competition, instead being Bellingham’s understudy getting throwaway minutes higher up the pitch, whilst the rest of the midfield continue to turn the ball over at the first hint of bother.
He is an excellent passer, at shorter ranges, very good at finding clever angles to get out of pressured situations. What he not has shown is passing over range or any real penetrative passes, more often he will carry the ball and look for interplay to progress the play rather than play through lines.
Some of that is down to the dumb feck midfield tactics that Ten Hag stuck with because at junior level he showed a more expansive range, just a few glimpses at senior level so far.
Hey, by the time England are out you lot may be looking for a new manager yourselves the rate you go!
Rice, Mainoo, Wharton & Bellingham are all excellent at keeping the ball so this is a strange take.
This has been Englands problem for a long, long time and it’s very much what we saw with the Golden Generation. Too many players trying to be the star man and very little sense of just performing your role and functioning as a team.
I think the media’s obsession with identifying heroes and villains in every England game plays a part, but Southgate has let these habits creep in again.
Rice is better out of possession imo. I thought he was excellent postionally in the first half snuffing out any dangerous Serbia counters by shielding the two CBs. He did exactly the same for Arsenal for most of last season hence their exceptional defensive record.
However he's not some metronome midfielder on the ball, a few times last night he just kicked it out of play under little pressure.
I think for where England are currently Mainoo is probably the best fit alongside Rice as given how bad Casemiro was last season he's had to cover plenty of ground so those two as the pivot should get around the pitch no problem. Mainoo's main issue was letting the Iceland midfielders run off him so maybe played his way out of starting last night.
England beat Denmark and then you have the chance in last game to change half the team and give some of these alternatives starts so that's their chance to force their way into the team for the knock outs e.g. Mainoo, Gordon.
Thought the first half was a very solid and commanding 45 mins. Second half was awful though and Gareth was his usual dithering self in changing things.
It was clear after 50 minutes we needed to make a change but he was 15 minutes too late...... and then made the wrong changes.
After 50-55 minutes I'd have brought on Eze or Gordon for Foden and Mainoo or Wharton for Trent, then if still no improvement by 65-70 minutes I'd have brought on the other one of Wharton or Mainoo for Kane and played Bellingham as a false 9 to pack midfield and get control of the ball.............. but no it was 70 minutes before Gallagher came on who I like but he won't give you control. Then 80+ minutes for Bowen and Mainoo to come on for our two best players. All very odd and poor.
Gareth will us this tournament with his dithering.
The only way win this tournament is Bellingham having a stormer. The lad oozes class and there is a chance he carries us despite Southgate.
It was clear after 50 minutes we needed to make a change but he was 15 minutes too late...... and then made the wrong changes.
After 50-55 minutes I'd have brought on Eze or Gordon for Foden and Mainoo or Wharton for Trent, then if still no improvement by 65-70 minutes I'd have brought on the other one of Wharton or Mainoo for Kane and played Bellingham as a false 9 to pack midfield and get control of the ball.............. but no it was 70 minutes before Gallagher came on who I like but he won't give you control. Then 80+ minutes for Bowen and Mainoo to come on for our two best players. All very odd and poor.
Gareth will us this tournament with his dithering.
The only way win this tournament is Bellingham having a stormer. The lad oozes class and there is a chance he carries us despite Southgate.
Having Foden/Bellingham/Kane on the same pitch isn't working and I don't think it ever will. Kane loves dropping into midfield, Foden loves moving centrally and that's basically Bellinghams position. It leaves us no outlet on the left and concentrates most attacks down our right, which is why Saka always looks like our most dangerous player. Southgate has to either drop Kane or drop Foden.
If you really look at yesterdays game, we were very lucky, not once did we actually create a decent chance against Serbia and the goal was a result of a lucky deflection of Sakas cross. Sakas cross was meant to be a low cross and would have easily been cut out by the first defender if there was no deflection.
The worrying thing is Iceland played the exact same way and we struggled the exact same way, so it's not like this is a one off.
If you really look at yesterdays game, we were very lucky, not once did we actually create a decent chance against Serbia and the goal was a result of a lucky deflection of Sakas cross. Sakas cross was meant to be a low cross and would have easily been cut out by the first defender if there was no deflection.
The worrying thing is Iceland played the exact same way and we struggled the exact same way, so it's not like this is a one off.
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"We play a game called (were)wolf and that's the face of a member of staff when he doesn't know what is going on"
Next up: the face of a member of staff when he doesn't know that he doesn't know what is going on
Next up: the face of a member of staff when he doesn't know that he doesn't know what is going on
If they are playing Werewolf in their spare time they are royally fecked, goes without saying
Am I seriously seeing calls in this thread for England's best player to be dropped for midtable trash like Watkins/Toney?
Game to game...everything with England is so reactionary, I've never seen anything like it with other sports teams in online spaces... Always dealing in abolutes, nothing in between
Game to game...everything with England is so reactionary, I've never seen anything like it with other sports teams in online spaces... Always dealing in abolutes, nothing in between
Southgate set up has significant structural issues. It's not simply a question of X player isn't good enough.
In the first half an hour England played fine, however, as soon as we tired a bit the cracks showed themselves. These aren't cracks that can be fixed by simply playing Y instead of Z.
The main issue is in midfield. Most other teams understand the need to set up to be able to hold the ball in the middle third.
All teams will have moments when they lose the upper hand and they just need to take care of the ball until their opponents lose momentum. That's when you give it to your metronome and just play a few one twos, keep the ball a bit. You don't need to attack, just take the sting out.
Southgate doesn't play the players who can do that though. Rice is a good player but he's not Rodri and 'Trent' is not a midfielder. We have nobody to nurse us through a 5-10 minute spell of just looking after the ball. After eight years of him, we can probably conclude that Southgate doesn't see the need for this either. It's therefore difficult to believe we won't just lose to the first team of real quality we face.
In the first half an hour England played fine, however, as soon as we tired a bit the cracks showed themselves. These aren't cracks that can be fixed by simply playing Y instead of Z.
The main issue is in midfield. Most other teams understand the need to set up to be able to hold the ball in the middle third.
All teams will have moments when they lose the upper hand and they just need to take care of the ball until their opponents lose momentum. That's when you give it to your metronome and just play a few one twos, keep the ball a bit. You don't need to attack, just take the sting out.
Southgate doesn't play the players who can do that though. Rice is a good player but he's not Rodri and 'Trent' is not a midfielder. We have nobody to nurse us through a 5-10 minute spell of just looking after the ball. After eight years of him, we can probably conclude that Southgate doesn't see the need for this either. It's therefore difficult to believe we won't just lose to the first team of real quality we face.
England's best player in terms of performance or in terms of status? It's not like he is playing terribly, but tactically it doesnt work. England do not have a fluid attack, and it has been like that for years.
To call Watkins midtable trash suggests you don't really want to be taken seriously.
Half the team will be changed for the Slovenia game so that's the time for the fringe players to step up and impress and get starting in the knock outs.
Quite right. It isn't a one off.
The balance of the team was incredibly right sided as you say. And at half time, the Serbia coach changed tactics so that Saka was ineffective. Immediately Bowen came on (far too late) we started to create something.
While I would love to see Shaw play, Southgate may well wait for us to qualify the group stage. Him and Gordon would give the right balance on the left side.
I would also like to see Cole Palmer because of his goal threat.
The question is who does he drop.
I am a fan of Foden. But as others have said, he hasn't yet performed for England.
To be fair I remember him being quire good against France albeit his awful penalty prob cost us the game
Yes indeed. The space Serbia were getting in midfield was quite shocking.
I would go with a back 3 and 5 in midfield including 2 wing backs. And Madison was fantastic on the left with Tottenham earlier on.
He brought on Gallagher which was ok. Except that he isn't imposing enough.
He's not Scholes or Carrick at this point of time, but there's a whole world between that and beeing so called 'poor'
You realise that is an active tactic? Just let them burn themselves out predictably, and then turn the screw as the lack of ball retention combines with the panic; England might go out to this method, even. It’s pretty formulaic in itself.
It all feels a bit Golden Generation to me. Some world class players and up there with the favourites, but we're trying to shoehorn players into positions they're not suited to and looking really disjointed.
Foden reminds me of Gerrard and Lampard under Sven/Capello. Amazing player, but I'm struggling to think of any England games he's played well in. I don't know if it's the position he's playing or the system, but he just doesn't fit. Both Rashford and Grealish would have been better options there. I think Gordon deserves a chance, but I can't see Southgate dropping Foden. Too big of a name now.
Alexander-Arnold is a good RB, but he's not a midfielder. I don't know where this push for him to play in midfield has come from. He doesn't start there for Liverpool, yet he's starting for England in a major tournament. I'd use the next two games to give Mainoo and Wharton a chance. Gallagher is a good option off the bench, which I think he showed last night but I don't think he's a starter. More suited to coming on late in the game and adding some legs.
Foden reminds me of Gerrard and Lampard under Sven/Capello. Amazing player, but I'm struggling to think of any England games he's played well in. I don't know if it's the position he's playing or the system, but he just doesn't fit. Both Rashford and Grealish would have been better options there. I think Gordon deserves a chance, but I can't see Southgate dropping Foden. Too big of a name now.
Alexander-Arnold is a good RB, but he's not a midfielder. I don't know where this push for him to play in midfield has come from. He doesn't start there for Liverpool, yet he's starting for England in a major tournament. I'd use the next two games to give Mainoo and Wharton a chance. Gallagher is a good option off the bench, which I think he showed last night but I don't think he's a starter. More suited to coming on late in the game and adding some legs.
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Here's how I would line up:
Pickford
Walker - Stones - Guehi - Trippier/Shaw
Palmer - Rice - Bellingham
Saka - Kane - Gordon/Eze
That, or a 4231 with Mainoo + Rice behind Saka, Kane, Bellingham, one of Gordon/Eze.
Pickford
Walker - Stones - Guehi - Trippier/Shaw
Palmer - Rice - Bellingham
Saka - Kane - Gordon/Eze
That, or a 4231 with Mainoo + Rice behind Saka, Kane, Bellingham, one of Gordon/Eze.
That midfield would get destroyed as soon as it came up against a competent opponent.
My only issue with Gareth's starting 11 was Trent at CM. After what we saw it's now obvious he isn't a natural CM so we should play somebody who is (Not Palmer) It's also seems highly likely we are better off with Eze or Gordon than Foden so I agree with you on that one.
Maybe, maybe not.
Southgate is a dinosaur and it must be jarring for players coming from tightly coached possession based, high pressing teams...
England have no idea how to keep the ball under pressure, they just hoof it up the pitch, inviting pressure.
I guess you can get away with it against lesser teams when you're not playing many games. As soon as we play a decent side it should be game over.
Not even mentioning TAA in midfield, when we've got two specialists in that position on the bench.
Whoever comes next must be able to coach a modern style of football.
England have no idea how to keep the ball under pressure, they just hoof it up the pitch, inviting pressure.
I guess you can get away with it against lesser teams when you're not playing many games. As soon as we play a decent side it should be game over.
Not even mentioning TAA in midfield, when we've got two specialists in that position on the bench.
Whoever comes next must be able to coach a modern style of football.
The balance is wrong .
With no left back , a right footed left cb , Bellingham , rice , and Trent all being right footed .
The guy who will make the biggest difference , to what we can do is playing Adam Wharton . A cultured left footed midfielder .
He should've come on instead of Gallagher . I appreciate Gallaghers workrate , but it's like fabregas said , the profile of the sub sends a message of what the manager thinks is required .
Connor Gallagher says to me , we need to put out fires . Adam Wharton says we want to play .
With no left back , a right footed left cb , Bellingham , rice , and Trent all being right footed .
The guy who will make the biggest difference , to what we can do is playing Adam Wharton . A cultured left footed midfielder .
He should've come on instead of Gallagher . I appreciate Gallaghers workrate , but it's like fabregas said , the profile of the sub sends a message of what the manager thinks is required .
Connor Gallagher says to me , we need to put out fires . Adam Wharton says we want to play .
Agree with that. If its Wharton or Mainoo I don't really mind, but cannot have TAA in there again.
One of the most annoying things about last night was that it was clear by 55 minutes that we were losing grip on the game and a change was needed. Gallagher then comes on after 69 minutes. Waiting far too long to change things yet again. As you say, Gallagher isn't the player who will give any sort of control in midfield which is what we desperately needed.
How Foden played the full 90 I don't know and he took off Saka, who up until that point was our most dangerous attacker (although Bowen did well when he came on).
Maybe we shouldn't be too whiny, as we've just won the first game, but all the familiar signs from previous tournaments are still there and I don't think Southgate has the balls to make the necessary changes, or if he even realises what the issues are.
It's also pretty irrelevant in a discussion about whether TAA should start in midfield. Mainoo (and the other midfielders in the squad) are lightyears ahead of TAA at just doing basic midfield stuff like positioning, tracking and working as part of a unit.
If Southgate loves him so much, drop Walker for him. If he doesn't have the balls to do that, then park him on the bench and let actual midfielders get on with midfielding
Spain dropped Cesc Fabregas to the bench, Holland dropped Overmars to the bench. That's what top managers do. They play players to fit a system, not just pick the best 11 players and hope for the best. This will be Englands down fall in the end and always will be!
Martinez and Belgium maybe? There was always a feeling he was holding them back. He's a better manager than Southgate though, so it's whether you think the Belgium "golden generation" were better than this current England squad.
I don't mind TAA in midfield in theory. International football is not a press heavy game and the team could really benefit from having that quality passer from deep. But if you're going to make that kind of move, the rest of the side needs to fit. You need runners in the front line (or else what's the point of having a deep lying player with such a quality passing range) and you need to have a tactic that involves dropping Trent into the backline in possession to get on the ball when facing the field. Germany pushes its two fullbacks forward, drops Kroos into a back three, and then he looks up and can use his passing range. England just played Trent like a bog standard midfielder, often receiving with his back to goal and in congested spaces, and that's just a recipe for disaster.
This is Southgate's problem in a nutshell. He has some ideas about how to tweak things, but is too much of a coward to actually follow through with the logical implications for the rest of the team.
Unfortunately, the options for truly changing the side are limited by Southgate's selections and his marginalization of White. By leaving out Rashford he has nobody to stretch the play, he somehow picked zero fit left backs so there is nobody to really provide width over there except maybe Gordon, and he has committed to an aging RB who can't invert or overlap effectively. Basically, he committed to getting nothing in attack out of both his fullbacks and to having a front line that almost exclusively wants the ball to feet. He can swap out TAA for Mainoo or Wharton but those limitations will still exist.
I think given those limitations the best idea would probably be Palmer and Bellingham as twin 8s and Gordon LW. Four stay at home defenders shielded by Rice, two wingers to provide width and stretch the play, then hope its enough of a platform for those central players to create some magic. If you struggle to progress the ball, push Bellingham and Kane close together and play long to them.
This is Southgate's problem in a nutshell. He has some ideas about how to tweak things, but is too much of a coward to actually follow through with the logical implications for the rest of the team.
Unfortunately, the options for truly changing the side are limited by Southgate's selections and his marginalization of White. By leaving out Rashford he has nobody to stretch the play, he somehow picked zero fit left backs so there is nobody to really provide width over there except maybe Gordon, and he has committed to an aging RB who can't invert or overlap effectively. Basically, he committed to getting nothing in attack out of both his fullbacks and to having a front line that almost exclusively wants the ball to feet. He can swap out TAA for Mainoo or Wharton but those limitations will still exist.
I think given those limitations the best idea would probably be Palmer and Bellingham as twin 8s and Gordon LW. Four stay at home defenders shielded by Rice, two wingers to provide width and stretch the play, then hope its enough of a platform for those central players to create some magic. If you struggle to progress the ball, push Bellingham and Kane close together and play long to them.
Please Potter, Tuchel or Pochettiono in charge in September.
What about him?
That is why England will not win the trophy. Media and pundits are just overrating everything. Average performences getting 8s and 9s. Just ridiculous and nonsens.
With those ratings you would think England won 5-0. The fact is that Serbia should have penalty and the game was more a draw than England win.
Rice and Bellingham are in no way stand out for that, Wharton hasn't shown that at all, Mainoo amazing Vs the press, but need to develop his passing.
Good shout! I think they were better in terms of top performers since I believe the English talents have yet to hit the heights of De Bruyne and Hazard but in terms of balance as well as depth, I'd say England is ahead. But Belgium should be e warning, IMO, since they really wasted an outstanding generation of players
I think we have an unbalanced midfield that lacks in some areas.
Literally our weakest. Rice no, foden is not central midfield, Wharton maybe but hasn't shown it well, Mainoo very good in some ways but needs to develop his passing. Compared to other top nations we are lacking.
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