England Discussion

do.ob said:
I think the art of bottling and overrating the team is deeply ingrained into the English football soul and writing "against the likes of Belguim" is testament to that. Even more so since Belgium simply had the far better squad, when they beat England twice in 2018.
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"the likes of Belgium" includes others on that list like Italy who certainly do not have better players than England in 2022.

England won 1 of 8 against Italy & Belgium... Not all the games against Belgium were in 2018. And the last ones of that series had Italy featuring some Serie B players.
 
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I thought to myself last night after watching the likes of Messi and Mbappe slotting home their penalties comfortably under immense pressure that unless England fix their penalty woes once and for all they won't win anything ever. The advent of VAR and who knows what other form of technology Fifa have up their sleeves in future major tournaments mean that going forward we will see even more penalties being awarded. With the margins so tight in these latter-stage games scoring one is often the difference between glory and limping out like a dysfunctional penis.
 
Pintu said:
"the likes of Belguim" includes others on that list like Italy who certainly do not have better players than England in 2022.

England won 1 of 8 against Italy & Belguim... Not all the games against Bleguim were in 2018. And the last ones of that series had Italy featuring some Serie B players...
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Look, I don't know what the Belgians did to you that you keep bringing them up in this way while butchering their name. Belgium had the better squad in 2018, then in 2020 they played twice again and both side got one win each. Which sounds as expected to me. England obviously had a bad Nation's League in 2022. But the WC afterwards went as well as one could expect. So I don't see the problem.
 
phelans shorts said:
But better managers haven’t got England anywhere near where Southgate has. They wouldn’t even have got us into the matches that Southgate allegedly cost us.
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I find that hard to believe. He has had the easiest of draws in the tournaments and yet still relied on luck such as pens against Colombia. Any of the past England managers would have got that far with the same draws.

Against Croatia, we scored a goal then played defensively. He failed to come up with any changes to counteract the Croatia midfield.

Against Italy, which was our best chance for trophy, he again failed to come up with any in match changes to be aggressive against an ageing Italian team. He then preceded to stupidly bring on players just before a penalty shoot out.

Against France, he actually had a better formation and they played well but yet again the in game management was abysmal. When equalising, he should have gone on the attack by bringing on an additional attacking midfielder. He didn’t do anything then preceded to bring on two players for an out of form Chelsea team and one of those players had flown home and come back. He didn’t bring on top scorer Rashford until 6 mins to go, Grealish with 2 mins to go and the man with the most assists Maddison is left on the bench.

There is no evidence after 3 tournaments, Southgate has learnt anything about in game management. This is where matches are won and lost.
 
Might as well not qualify for the Euros.

Will use Sterling after everybody else scores goals in the PL except him.

Dreadful manager and poor substitutions.
 
Kopral Jono said:
I thought to myself last night after watching the likes of Messi and Mbappe slotting home their penalties comfortably under immense pressure that unless England fix their penalty woes once and for all they won't win anything ever. The advent of VAR and who knows what other form of technology Fifa have up their sleeves in future major tournaments mean that going forward we will see even more penalties being awarded. With the margins so tight in these latter-stage games scoring one is often the difference between glory and limping out like a dysfunctional penis.
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Good point. Penalties/shoot outs are so important these days. Two of them just won Argintina the world cup.

If that was England, we would have been out against the Netherlands!
 
TheGame said:
I find that hard to believe. He has had the easiest of draws in the tournaments and yet still relied on luck such as pens against Colombia. Any of the past England managers would have got that far with the same draws.
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This keeps getting said but if you look at results from 2008, this isn't true.

Steve Mclaren
2008: Did not qualify

Capello:
WC 2010: scraped out of the group, finishing 2nd with Slovenia, Algeria and USA. Unfortunate with the Lampard goal vs Germany but outplayed and should have won the group for a much easier path.

Hodgson:
Euro 2012: completely outplayed by Italy hung on and lost on pens
WC 2014: out in the group stages
Euro 2016: knocked out by Iceland
 
saivet said:
This keeps getting said but if you look at results from 2008, this isn't true.

Steve Mclaren
2008: Did not qualify

Capello:
WC 2010: scraped out of the group, finishing 2nd with Slovenia, Algeria and USA. Unfortunate with the Lampard goal vs Germany but outplayed and should have won the group for a much easier path.

Hodgson:
Euro 2012: completely outplayed by Italy hung on and lost on pens
WC 2014: out in the group stages
Euro 2016: knocked out by Iceland
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Fair point, but the point I was trying to make was those managers in charge of this squad. We have a great set of talented players whose attributes just aren't being utilised to the full and I can't see Southgate changing his approach going forward.
 
TheGame said:
Fair point, but the point I was trying to make was those managers in charge of this squad. We have a great set of talented players whose attributes just aren't being utilised to the full and I can't see Southgate changing his approach going forward.
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We do have a better squad (not so much in 2018) but Capello, McClaren and Hodgson didn't even meet the minimum expectations of their squads.

Others have mentioned it but in 2018 the starting midfield trio was Henderson, Dele and Lingard. Ashley Young was also the first choice LWB.

I think you could compare Southgate more to Sven. Neither grossly over achieved or under achieved.

Without looking into the different squads, I would have thought that this squad at the moment is younger than the teams Sven had.

If I could choose a manger since Sven to manage this current crop, I'd stick with Southgate easily to be honest.
 
It's cowardice from the FA. The main similarity between England under Southgate and Ole with United is the coaching. England don't play a good brand of football. The ball is recycled around the back four continually and unless they concede they decide to break the lines. Look at the difference between how Argentina broke France down during periods of the game last night. England had one of the best midfields in individual qualities at the tournament.

Furthermore, consider the language Southgate used. He was communicating ideas such as "see how far we can go". Remember when United were top of the table and Solskjaer said the same thing that the team wasn't challenging for the league. It's the messages in the subconscious mind that determines winning and losing. In a world cup where there wasn't a purely dominant team it's the mentality that differentiated the top teams. France outdid England mentally because the culture there is to win.

Almost guarantee that if England lost in a final during the world cup the manager wouldn't be disappointed but would reinforce how proud he is of the team reaching those stages. That's the type of manager Southgate is. I don't blame him however it's the FA that have made the decision.
 
Why is England FA keep a negative and defensive old fashioned manager when thier strength is actually in attacking?

England FA is no better than Ed Woodward.
 
Kopral Jono said:
I thought to myself last night after watching the likes of Messi and Mbappe slotting home their penalties comfortably under immense pressure that unless England fix their penalty woes once and for all they won't win anything ever. The advent of VAR and who knows what other form of technology Fifa have up their sleeves in future major tournaments mean that going forward we will see even more penalties being awarded. With the margins so tight in these latter-stage games scoring one is often the difference between glory and limping out like a dysfunctional penis.
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No no, according to another thread there's no skill in penalties, it's all luck
 
Ludens the Red said:
Its mad looking at the responses and the similarities between them and what was said when Ole was here. Th, e same “we’ve had world class managers before and look how that went” “if not Southgate who’s available”…

Southgate is actually at the point in his tenure that Ole was at the end of 2020/2021 too. Clear as day the reign has reached its conclusion but the powers that be and his punditry mates will continue to back him no questions asked. And just as it was under Ole, England will never ever win a trophy under this manager. This guy cocked up a home euros against an Italian side who couldn’t even qualify for the world cups either side of the euros. Which I’d mark as the equivalent of Ole cocking up the Europa Final.
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Good Post.
Whether it will be an Ole like decline is debatable but I do see a decline coming.
Kane could become England's Ronaldo. An undroppable force past his best.
Maguire totally outperformed expectations but he will have limited time at Utd.
Walker only getting older.
Doesnt trust TAA
Cant really get the best out of Foden
Loves Mount, Rice and Henderson, They are not suddenly turning into Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets
Hates Rashford, Grealish and Maddison
So unless Saka and Bellingham become Maradona, Messi and Pele combined, I cant see improvement overall with Southgate staying.
 
phelans shorts said:
But better managers haven’t got England anywhere near where Southgate has. They wouldn’t even have got us into the matches that Southgate allegedly cost us.
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Any England manager would have struggled NOT to win the games we have won in major tournaments under Southgate. It would be harder to lose them. We’ve not won a single game we shouldn’t have.
 
Big mistake keeping Southgate. The England team should be playing like France. England have brilliant players and they play like cowards. So defensive. They attack could be deadly. Saw a stat that out of the 24 matches they've played against the top 10. They've only won 4. How is he still in the job. Ireland could have made it to the semi with the run England had when they got knocked out by Croatia back then.
 
Jeppers7 said:
Any England manager would have struggled NOT to win the games we have won in major tournaments under Southgate. It would be harder to lose them. We’ve not won a single game we shouldn’t have.
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Plenty of England managers have lost meaningful games they shouldn’t have. Southgate hasn’t. This is just a fact.
 
AaronRedDevil said:
Big mistake keeping Southgate. The England team should be playing like France. England have brilliant players and they play like cowards. So defensive. They attack could be deadly. Saw a stat that out of the 24 matches they've played against the top 10. They've only won 4. How is he still in the job. Ireland could have made it to the semi with the run England had when they got knocked out by Croatia back then.
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Absolutely, but this is really on the FA and their mismanagement and eagerness to hand out a contract extension to someone who really isn’t capable of managing an exceptionally talented team.
My initial concern was whether we’d find someone else, preferably English/Uk, who’d be able to jump straight in. If the FA had waited then probably Potter would’ve been available. Another potentially suitable manager could be Brendon Rodgers?
 
phelans shorts said:
Plenty of England managers have lost meaningful games they shouldn’t have. Southgate hasn’t. This is just a fact.
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Not many have had three tournaments in a row with extremely favourable draws and lost to the first good team they met three times. This is just fact.
 
was funny listening to Talksport go from "only Mbappe gets in our team, and even then is he really better than super Jack?" to "no shame in losing to the World champions"

now it seems they're completely split on Southgate between the ex players and non ex players
 
phelans shorts said:
Because they haven’t made it to a good team on at least one occasion out of three.
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Well Southgate has demonstrably proven he isn’t capable regardless of the fact we once lost to Iceland. It isn’t a reason to stick by someone who repeatable demonstrates the same failings with regards to his own approach.
 
Jeppers7 said:
Well Southgate has demonstrably proven he isn’t capable regardless of the fact we once lost to Iceland. It isn’t a reason to stick by someone who repeatable demonstrates the same failings with regards to his own approach.
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Fine, let’s play your silly little game. Who takes over. Give me names that aren’t utterly laughable
 
GlasgowCeltic said:
was funny listening to Talksport go from "only Mbappe gets in our team, and even then is he really better than super Jack?" to "no shame in losing to the World champions"

now it seems they're completely split on Southgate between the ex players and non ex players
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You have to wonder if it’s his friends that are the ones defending him. He hasn’t done anything to suggest he is a good manager. Being a nice guy doesn’t make you a good boss. In fact the best managers I’ve ever had have been complete tossers. He is very bland, uncharismatic and tactically naive.

When he can stop riding the coat tails of other managers, coping club sides tactics and become a defined unique manager in his own right I may begin to change my mind. As it stands he is very much a D tier manager with a B+ international side. With him England will always be a middling C tier nation.
 
phelans shorts said:
Fine, let’s play your silly little game. Who takes over. Give me names that aren’t utterly laughable
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He is correct, though - you cannot keep on harking back to what happened with Iceland. The loss was terrible but you also have to remember that that England team was also terrible. Our midfield consisted of Rooney, Dier and Ali. Two of them aren't even midfielders. Rooney was pretty much done by that point, to make things worse. Dier has never been a good player; average at best. Ali - I can't remember whether he was good or not at this point. Either way, it is a terrible team.

This team is far stronger and, despite all the praise Southgate is getting, we are actually repeating the results that we have had throughout the 2000s and 90s. It isn't any different; it is just that we are facing the better sides deeper in the tournament; the expanded Euros certainly increased the odds of having weaker draws. We benefited from that in the last tournament.

Southgate is a championship-level manager, at best. There are plenty of managers who could repeat what he has done, at the minimum. He hasn't done this 'fantastic job' that everyone is thinking he has done. He has beaten sides that England are expected to beat, but he has not been able to win a single game that is anywhere near 50-50. In the end, there is a point where you need to accept that we are not going to do it with Southgate, so give someone else a chance. He has shown over three tournaments he cannot win against these sides, so it is pointless going on with it.
 
Lecland07 said:
He is correct, though - you cannot keep on harking back to what happened with Iceland. The loss was terrible but you also have to remember that that England team was also terrible. Our midfield consisted of Rooney, Dier and Ali. Two of them aren't even midfielders. Rooney was pretty much done by that point, to make things worse. Dier has never been a good player; average at best. Ali - I can't remember whether he was good or not at this point. Either way, it is a terrible team.

This team is far stronger and, despite all the praise Southgate is getting, we are actually repeating the results that we have had throughout the 2000s and 90s. It isn't any different; it is just that we are facing the better sides deeper in the tournament; the expanded Euros certainly increased the odds of having weaker draws. We benefited from that in the last tournament.

Southgate is a championship-level manager, at best. There are plenty of managers who could repeat what he has done, at the minimum. He hasn't done this 'fantastic job' that everyone is thinking he has done. He has beaten sides that England are expected to beat, but he has not been able to win a single game that is anywhere near 50-50. In the end, there is a point where you need to accept that we are not going to do it with Southgate, so give someone else a chance. He has shown over three tournaments he cannot win against these sides, so it is pointless going on with it.
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Forget about Iceland then, what the feck did Fabio Capello do with England? In the 3 years prior to joining England he’d won 2 Serie A and a La Liga. Can you name anyone with as good a track record as that on the market? Southgate has outperformed his level by magnitudes (pop pop)
 
More than anything, I think people just hugely over-estimate the importance of tactical aptitude to international management.

I think Lionel Scaloni is a great example of this. I don't think there's anything groundbreaking about his tactics with Argentina, and that's because Scaloni was smart enough to realise that there didn't need to be. He had a once in a lifetime talent in Messi and developed a system that worked around augmenting his quality. On top of that, he has proven to be an extremely astute man manager, maintaining an excellent team ethic throughout his tenure.

Whilst Southgate is not as successful, and also does not have Lionel Messi in his squad, I think there are some basic similarities. None of his tactics are ingenious, but they do generally do a fairly effective job at getting the most out of his biggest assets (most notably Kane). He has also done a great job of building and maintaining a great team ethic for England.

This is why I feel that the idea that somebody like Tuchel or Mourinho would definitely do a lot more with this England squad is missing something. They're both much better tacticians than Southgate, I don't think anyone is going to deny that, but I would question whether or not they'd be as effective at maintaining the squad harmony and team spirit as Southgate has been.
 
Mmm-Qatarian said:
This is why I feel that the idea that somebody like Tuchel or Mourinho would definitely do a lot more with this England squad is missing something.
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I have my doubts if Mourinho would be a massive upgrade for Portugal for International Football. Sure some of his weaknesses at club level wouldn't be a problem here but I don't know if having the capacity to choose the best players of a country he would keep the same approach he has at club level, how would his teams perform let's say against how Morocco setup on the knockout stages? I don't have a answer for that.
 
Just as Capello and earlier Erikson, Mourinho is past his best. So having him in and lamenting after his failure that "England tried with world-class managers and look how that turned out" is wrong.

Tuchel, I'm certain, would do a better job. But generally yes, managers are pretty limited with what they can do and how much of that they can instill in an international side. However, there are examples that it's possible.

Italy had a distinct playing style, both in EURO 2016 with Conte and in 2021 with Mancini. You could simply see it was their work. And you could argue that they both achieved as much as was expected or more.

Spain has failed in this tournament, but has been very impressive in last EURO, practically they are the only side that outplayed Italy.
 
saivet said:
I think you could compare Southgate more to Sven. Neither grossly over achieved or under achieved.

Without looking into the different squads, I would have thought that this squad at the moment is younger than the teams Sven had.

If I could choose a manger since Sven to manage this current crop, I'd stick with Southgate easily to be honest.
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Meh! Opting for one loser over another is still not trying to pick a winner.

Has Southgate done an excellent job in many aspects? Of course, but can he make us winners? The answer has to be no, and that's why it's pointless sticking with him imo.
Just a delaying of the inevitable unfortunately.

My biggest hope is that this team will improve to the point where they can win despite Southgate. Which isnt out of the question, as the standard of competition is looking increasingly poor to me.
 
apotheosis said:
Meh! Opting for one loser over another is still not trying to pick a winner.

Has Southgate done an excellent job in many aspects? Of course, but can he make us winners? The answer has to be no, and that's why it's pointless sticking with him imo.
Just a delaying of the inevitable unfortunately.

My biggest hope is that this team will improve to the point where they can win despite Southgate. Which isnt out of the question, as the standard of competition is looking increasingly poor to me.
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His point was that any of the previous England managers would have done just as good a job which I don't think is true.

I would have preferred the FA try for Tuchel or Poch but I'm not devastated that Southgate is staying. I wouldn't back him to win Euro 2024 but I think he's capable of leading us to the title there, which ties to your last point. I think there have been many mediocre managers that have succeeded in international football and many good managers that have failed. The nature of these tournaments means that luck and timing can play a massive part in deciding the winners and the teams who flop.
 
saivet said:
His point was that any of the previous England managers would have done just as good a job which I don't think is true.

I would have preferred the FA try for Tuchel or Poch but I'm not devastated that Southgate is staying. I wouldn't back him to win Euro 2024 but I think he's capable of leading us to the title there, which ties to your last point. I think there have been many mediocre managers that have succeeded in international football and many good managers that have failed. The nature of these tournaments means that luck and timing can play a massive part in deciding the winners and the teams who flop.
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I don't believe that either. Gareth has laid a foundation, and buit upon it in a manner that previous managers never did

But what is it all for if it doesnt lead to the ultimate goal? Everything is there but the in game management.

As to your last point. True. But then so no more so than a timely substitution. Some say you can make your own luck at times.
 
apotheosis said:
I don't believe that either. Gareth has laid a foundation, and buit upon it in a manner that previous managers never did

But what is it all for if it doesnt lead to the ultimate goal? Everything is there but the in game management.

As to your last point. True. But then so no more so than a timely substitution. Some say you can make your own luck at times.
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As manager maybe Gareth does deserve the praise some have given him with regards to foundations being laid. I'm personally not convinced he has been the architect here.

We all knew the issues with the England set up with regards to players. Likes of Gerrard, Lampard and Rio have gone into detail about it. Basically the club was more important than country and divide amongst players from different teams.

That divide in itself doesnt exist. You only have to look at opposition players in the prem sharing jokes, hugging etc even before matches. Simply don't see a Pete and Gnev situation. Or a Rio and Lampard one.

But let's say Gareth has indeed done away with the partisanship. There are other things that likes of Gerrard have said was an issue in the past. I don't recall the exact words but Gerrard himself said they played well in earlier rounds and qualifiers but came unstuck with the better teams in the knockout rounds. This hasn't changed.
 
Roane said:
As manager maybe Gareth does deserve the praise some have given him with regards to foundations being laid. I'm personally not convinced he has been the architect here.

We all knew the issues with the England set up with regards to players. Likes of Gerrard, Lampard and Rio have gone into detail about it. Basically the club was more important than country and divide amongst players from different teams.

That divide in itself doesnt exist. You only have to look at opposition players in the prem sharing jokes, hugging etc even before matches. Simply don't see a Pete and Gnev situation. Or a Rio and Lampard one.

But let's say Gareth has indeed done away with the partisanship. There are other things that likes of Gerrard have said was an issue in the past. I don't recall the exact words but Gerrard himself said they played well in earlier rounds and qualifiers but came unstuck with the better teams in the knockout rounds. This hasn't changed.
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Honestly Gareth Halfwit is getting credit for a lot of things that he hasn’t actually done. The only reason the players are on his side is because he was their U21 manager and has formed a close bond with them. As a manager for a nation with expectations to do well, when has he shown he can be that person to make the difference in games that could go either way (Jose mk 1 for example). He hasn’t. His tactics pre WC came from studying successful club sides and trying to implement that onto the team. During the WC, with the personnel he selected, he chose the wrong formation. A flat midfield with little to no cover in CM and then wasting all the 10s he chose to bring. He is clueless.
 
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