Superb from the Windies!! Great effort after the first Test & held their nerve on a tricky final day. Well done!
Hope was superb, Brathwaite too.
Hope was superb, Brathwaite too.
England Cricket Summer 17 - South Africa & West Indies
- Thread starter ChrisNelson
- Start date
Take a bow West Indies. Great stuff from them today.
One of the biggest upsets in the last decade or so as far as test matches go. Incredible.
Brilliant stuff from Brathwaite and Hope.
Made what looked a very dull series interesting.
Made what looked a very dull series interesting.
Incredible. Is this one of THE biggest upsets in test match history? Realistically, this WI team is probably the worst ever (their worst).
Let's go WI. Always my 2nd team. I'd love for this to not be another false dawn.
Sterling stuff from the Windies and I hope they kick on!
Time for a change coaching wise I think, unlikely to happen pre-Ashes but will definitely happen after I feel. Not entirely sure how many players Bayliss has actually made better. Stokes kicked on before he came in, Bairstow was smashing runs in CC outside of his influence, Anderson, Broad, Cook and Root were ace before he came. Maybe Woakes has benefitted from stability and Moeen has been a nice find but Bayliss coaching of him has been questionable and I'd argue Mushtaq and Saqlain have done more for him.
One intriguing aspect for me this summer has been the percentage of runs England score in boundaries. It's either feast or famine and there's a lack of basic cricket application (1's and 2's) which I attribute to the focus on ODI/T20. In a way I think Root is a perfect example of this, he should be being pushed by Bayliss etc. to be absolutely ruthless and to make huge scores but he is still prone to brainfarts. I'm also disappointed in how Stokes has developed as a quick. He's very fast and can swing it both ways, bowls a cracking yorker and short ball but he's only good for 5 overs in 90 over dart for a big run chase? Until the IPL I don't Stokes actually realised how good he was, his batting has kicked on since then and his bowling needs to follow. There are 2-3 clear gaps in the squad but I don't think England push themselves as hard as they can and I think Bayliss' laissez-faire attitude is a huge part of that.
Time for a change coaching wise I think, unlikely to happen pre-Ashes but will definitely happen after I feel. Not entirely sure how many players Bayliss has actually made better. Stokes kicked on before he came in, Bairstow was smashing runs in CC outside of his influence, Anderson, Broad, Cook and Root were ace before he came. Maybe Woakes has benefitted from stability and Moeen has been a nice find but Bayliss coaching of him has been questionable and I'd argue Mushtaq and Saqlain have done more for him.
One intriguing aspect for me this summer has been the percentage of runs England score in boundaries. It's either feast or famine and there's a lack of basic cricket application (1's and 2's) which I attribute to the focus on ODI/T20. In a way I think Root is a perfect example of this, he should be being pushed by Bayliss etc. to be absolutely ruthless and to make huge scores but he is still prone to brainfarts. I'm also disappointed in how Stokes has developed as a quick. He's very fast and can swing it both ways, bowls a cracking yorker and short ball but he's only good for 5 overs in 90 over dart for a big run chase? Until the IPL I don't Stokes actually realised how good he was, his batting has kicked on since then and his bowling needs to follow. There are 2-3 clear gaps in the squad but I don't think England push themselves as hard as they can and I think Bayliss' laissez-faire attitude is a huge part of that.
I would say so, in the context of the last test as well. And Hope, bloody hell what a way to get your first two test 100s.
Hasn't Bayliss been the key in England's ODI resurgence? As for his Test influence, like you say, Ali, Stokes, and Woakes seem to have benefited the most. I think your (assuming you support England) biggest issue is your top order batting. You don't seem to have found a replacement for Strauss or Bell i.e. an opener and a number 3/4. You've got Cook and Root who have cemented their positions. But then you've used Ballance, Hameed, Jennings, Malan, Westley and even Ali at the top of the order to no avail. I think he should probably remain until the Ashes and then assess from there.
Agreed. Astonishing stuff.. some of the articles written about them were brutal, really happy for them.
Maybe split the ODI and Test coaching team? I would wait and see after the Ashes.
Yes and no.
The key series was the NZ at home one, and that was before Bayliss came in.
Remind me, when was he appointed?
I distinctly remember England being walloped in the 2015 WC and then scoring runs galore against Sri Lanka, NZ, Pakistan and at the T20 WC last year.
He was appointed fairly soon after that , but didn't take over officially until half way through the summer in 2015. Before the Ashes, but after the New Zealand tour.
I think Bayliss gets far too much credit for that. Fabrace came in for the NZ test/ODI series and it was like a flick was switched. Stokes was scoring 100s in the tests and the ODI team was smashing 430 odd. All before Bayliss had done a single thing. Bayliss doesn't watch County Cricket and the players they do call-up he seems to have very little influence on them. Bayliss' coaching style is to let the players get on with it, which is fine if you're a Joe Root or Jonny Bairstow and are driven as heck, but other players need a more hands-on approach.
I'm not even sure how much of a positive effect his man-management style has, for instance with Mo. He said he wasn't the main spinner at the start of this summer. Now you could interpret that as taking pressure off of Mo but what Mo needs is someone in his ear telling him how good he is and I think with Saqlain he gets that and that's why he's played so well this summer. Stokes is another interesting one, incredible talent but it's only when he went away to the IPL that I've seen him push and develop his skills, his batting and mental approach has really improved since then. If he can develop so much during a few weeks it makes me wonder what the England setup is doing with him over the numerous months they spend together.
Another example of Bayliss' man-management was his rank treatment of Nick Compton. He came in scored a slow-ish but important 80/90-odd vs SA away and Bayliss was harping on about scoring runs quicker rather than providing a solid platform. Just rubbish man-management that created unnecessary pressure on Compton to play in a way that he couldn't.
Hope's interview was funny.
Ian Ward to Shai Hope: "You are the first man to score a century in both innings in Headingley."
Shai Hope: "Thanks for the news."
Ian Ward to Shai Hope: "You are the first man to score a century in both innings in Headingley."
Shai Hope: "Thanks for the news."
I heard that some pundits were suggesting two divisions in test cricket? Is this true? If so, it'll be fecking hilarious.
You'll know more than me. Looking back at it, your test results haven't been great. Off the top of my head, you lost the Ashes (right?), drew to Pakistan (at home), drew to Bangladesh (?), lost to India and beat WI (?). Can't fully remember all the results. So, I guess you have a good point. I think with Moeen, you're 100% correct, it does seem to give a lot of credit to Saqlain for his recent success. To be fair, I remember watching an interview of his at least a year ago (maybe more) where he credit Saqlain then too.
Do England have a coach for each department? If not, then maybe that's an avenue you could possibly explore? I'd love to see Trescothick back on the scene. Or is that Fabrace's job?
Off the top of my head Bayliss' test record is:
Beat Aus 3-2 at home
Beat SA away
Beat SL @ home
Drew vs Pak @ home
Drew vs Bang away
Hammered by India away
Beat SA @ home
Currently I believe they have specialist bowling and batting coaches. Bowling was Otis Gibson who is off to South Africa and batting is Mark Ramprakash. No full-time spin coach even though Mo's asked for it more than once. Irrespective of all that Bayliss sets the tone for the wider coaching team and I don't think his style works with where English cricket is at. He needs to either start bucking up his ideas and watch County Cricket and start establishing his fingerprints on this team or step aside and let someone who will to do so. At the moment he seems happy to have a revolving door of players who he's never watched be let into the team, struggle and be consigned to the scrap heap. He's not choosing the players and he's not making them better so the question remains, what exactly is he doing?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the selectors play a pivotal role on who's selected for the next series? I'd imagine the coach gets a say who's selected or who's not, but if it's true that Bayliss doesn't watch County Cricket and has no prior knowledge on those being selected, then some responsibility must lie with the ECB and selectors. First, why appoint a coach of his nature and secondly, are the selectors picking the right players.
The results above are actually not bad at all. Four wins against four good nations. A little shock in the draw at home to Pakistan. An expected thrashing by India and a decent result against a nation that is getting stronger every year.
Well this is the crux of my argument. It's not ideal that a coach can either pick who they want a la Malan or Dawson because they looked ok in the limited overs format or that they can wash their hands of any players who struggle once they are picked. The coach should be pulling players like Ballance to one side and saying 'you need to work on this, this and this and then you'll be ok'. Test cricket is mental as much as it is technical. Steve Smith made huge strides because he understands his technique and what he's good at.
The results have been ok on the whole but my beef is that over the 2 years the same issues linger which to me suggests a problem with the coaching. The spine of a cracking team is there but Bayliss is not addressing the gaps in the squad with urgency nor is he showing any great coaching influence on the team and how they approach their cricket. I am led to believe he mostly got the gig on his T20/Limited overs skills but tests should not come to the detriment to that.
The issue with the top-order failures lies in one of 3 places:
1) County Cricket not being good enough
2) Selectors not being good enough at selecting talent
3) Bayliss not being good enough coach the players once they step up. Root, Bairstow, Stokes all struggled early in their careers but they went away and fixed it. The key for all of them however was consistency and support from the coach at the time that gave them clarity on their role and some confidence within their skillset. I imagine many players come into the England side now unsure if Bayliss has a) actually seen them and b) actually rates them or knows what they are best at. If he hasn't flipping seen them how on earth can he coach them? He has no reference point of what they are actually good at and test cricket is brutal. If he only sees such a small sample size of them playing cricket and them struggling what actual pointers can he offer?
The reality is probably all 3 in combination and Strauss/Flower/Bayliss/Selectors all needs to bash their heads together and analyse the process behind the way they identify test batsmen and their path into the first team. With Anderson and Cook at the ages they are at England really need to knuckle down and think long-term ASAP otherwise they'll have more than 2-3 gaps in the team within 2-3 years.
Also Lost 2-0 vs PAK in the UAE
Wow, gave up all hope yesterday and didn't even check the score once and now I have the biggest grin on my face 
A win for cricket
This is the problem with this England very inconsistent a win followed by a loss is a repeated scenario it happens every series playing silly shots and getting out too many times handing the wicket away instead of making the bowler earn the wicket. They have to stop this stupid approach of attacking all the time have to play as per the situation of the match & Pitch conditions.
Batting order needs to change Root should be coming in at 3 with baristow Malan & stokes to follow. Buttler batting at no.7 can be ruthless he can easily turn the match around all by himself. I can understand woakes playing against WI as they want him match practice adn readied for Ashes but players should be picked on form. TRJ was doing a fine job, even though Mo is doing a great job but sometimes you need a genuine bowlers to win a test match from difficult situation give M.crane a chance boy has lots of talent.
Batting order needs to change Root should be coming in at 3 with baristow Malan & stokes to follow. Buttler batting at no.7 can be ruthless he can easily turn the match around all by himself. I can understand woakes playing against WI as they want him match practice adn readied for Ashes but players should be picked on form. TRJ was doing a fine job, even though Mo is doing a great job but sometimes you need a genuine bowlers to win a test match from difficult situation give M.crane a chance boy has lots of talent.
Of all the batsmen utilised in the top 5, I'd say Ballance looked the best. In fact, I remember at the beginning of his career, he seemed a far more accomplished batsmen than Joe Root. Then he fell away and he was dropped. Same goes for Hameed, I still can't understand why he hasn't been called up to the squad and been given time to illustrate his credentials. Kids his age don't perform like he did in India if they aren't special.
Look at India and Rohit Sharma. We persisted with him for 5 or 6 years of mediocrity, but eventually, the talent that was so obvious was finally demonstrated and we've a wonderful opener in the limited forms of the game.
Weird you say County Cricket isn't good enough. The likes Zaheer, Pujara and Harbhajan have benefited immensely from stints in England. Zaheers season with Worcestershire turned his international career around, completely. I think the ECB's reluctance to allow a lot of players to play in the overseas T20 leagues has really bitten them in the backside. Quite a few of the Test nations have discovered some incredibly talented players through the IPL - Shaun Marsh, Steven Smith (improved a lot from the IPL), Mustafizur, Bhumra, Morris (improved a lot and earned a place in the test team). Earlier exposure could really have helped the likes of Hales, Roy, Bairstow and a few others. Instead, the ECB sent them off to the Caribbean where that weirdo had all players' wives around his shoulders.
Don't forget, Jennings also got a ton in India on debut. I think this has been said repeatedly but he can't buy a run at FC level yet people want to parachute him into the test side. He needs to get his confidence back at FC level before going back into the test side.
Oh Cookie........
West Indies have won the toss, unchanged XI and batting first. Important first session for England after sacrificing the last Test.
Stokes 6/22 Windies 122 all out
That LBW decision is a pretty harsh way to have your international career ended I reckon.
40/4 and now 123 suddenly doesn't look so bad. How do you solve the #3 problem
Oh the reactions in world cricket, if any pitch in subcontinent had a combined score line of 170 runs for the loss of 14 wickets on day one.
What an over.500 for Jimmy
Every time Anderson passes some landmark I remember when we forced him to change his action and I'm very pleased he quickly got fed up enough to ignore the experts and just bowl like he wanted. If he'd carried on with the remodeled one he would've been a very average county cricketer.
Pitch is absolutely fine. It's the overheads that have caused problems.
And the genuinely atrocious batting.
The overheads are most of the times like this in England. It's not the first an English match has been disrupted by rain.