Yeah, pretty much. Probably why all the misogynists shit themselves when they thought they'd found a feminist who'd actually done something worse than air an opinion they disliked. Finally, vindication for all the hate.
Emma Watson on Feminism
- Thread starter rcoobc
- Start date
Whether or not I had wouldn't be significant to actual data.
Why can't you just answer the question? You don't even understand the data by your own admission. You read the summary.
I don't know. I tend not to ask people how much they're on.
The summary was pretty clear.
We did.
I still feel sexist though. Less than the average guy in previous generations, and certainly less than myself 20 years ago. It's not a yes or no thing though, just a long road towards an utopic goal.
I don't understand how one can possibly think this became a non-issue in 10-20 years or so. The world (including our beloved and enlightened western societies) isn't that simple. My mother is a Sociologist, a regional and national (Portugal) expert on this subject. She also writes children books, a few of which touch these subjects. 10 year old kids are sexist, this in a country where adults are convinced themselves are not. When you look deep, it's still there, hidden somewhere (or everywhere)... She made her thesis about sexism in school books, and it's incredible what you can find when you dig deep. How often the drawings of those 1st year books depict the man as the doctor and the woman as the nurse, etc. Things that embarrassed the authors, who themselves had the best of intentions and weren't aware of it.
This is not to say that it would be the same particular issue in Scandinavia or England, but to remind everyone that it's stupid to think this fight has been won. It's not, and if it ever is, it will still require resources and effort to maintain that egalitarian status quo we strive for.
When you applied for your jobs did you negotiate your salary? I think you know you don't get paid more than the woman who does the same job as you.
A summary states women earn more than men. It doesn't go into any reason why this may be the case. It doesn't factor in women doing more part time work. It takes a total of earnings and that's it. Even one you linked says it is unsure.
I didn't, no, I'm fairly expendable so it wouldn't have gone down well.
Read adex' post on the last page. The research accounts for everything possible and there is still an unexplained pay gap.
It's safe to assume that your rate of pay was advertised then and I can stake my life that it didn't have a different structure for women.
No it doesn't. It specifically states that it doesn't account for everything and discrimination cannot be proven.
Nope, the job wasn't ever advertised. I just fell into it.
It says that they've accounted for everything they have, and that while discrimination can't be proven, it may be part of the reason.
I just want to state outright that you're an awful person. Really awful.
Try searching her twitter account name and any insulting word and you'll find plenty of examples of abuse. It's possible that she exaggerates abuse (I doubt it) but she definitely doesn't lie about it. Cherry picking arguments? Portraying games in a bad light? Are you seeing what you're saying. So you don't like her opinions on games, what a crime. She uses kickstarter. Why should I care? How does any of this make her a bad person or feminist?
I don't really want to get into Quinn but the sordid state of gaming journalism has been obvious for a while (stories of journalist sacked for giving the wrong game a bad review) without this level of abuse or interest being generated (Also the corruption has nothing to do with sexual favours). Quinn was under fire because of a bunch of moronic sexists who didn't give a shit that none of her alleged partners reviewed her game or that she didn't do anything but criticise the FYT due to their transgender policy.
That's down to the parents, not the kids. Besides I didn't say they were non-issues.
How does any of this make me an awful person?
That's me convinced then.
Whether or not it is entirely down to discrimination, do you not think it's unfair that women get paid less almost everywhere on the planet in almost every job?
I used your post as a template for my opinion, wasn't putting words on your mouth.
Obviously 10 year olds being sexist is down to their parents (well, the preceding generation at large). That was my point. If brand new brains are still developing this trait, there's still a lot to do.
They don't. Certainly not where I'm from and for doing the same job. I'm sure there examples in some areas at the higher end of the food chain but there are reasons why women don't go as high up of which I am sure you are already aware. The women I work with don't get paid less and neither have they anywhere I've worked.
They aren't really developing a trait, they are simply been passed on a view of the world by their parents.
You need to stop assuming your experience is indicative of the entire labor market. Especially in the face of every single study showing otherwise.
Every single study takes a total of earnings and compares them. It is not and never can be an exact science. The only way is to compare like for like. Unless you can show me a study that explicitly states that a woman doing the exact same job as a man for the same hours is getting paid less then it is no more than a bunch of data thrown together without all the information.
Which part of these studies taking into account experience, education and performance is difficult to understand?
Let's try a graph, people like graphs.
(In America)
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-06-21/equal-pay-plaintiffs-burden-of-proof
You're clearly a sexist. You see someone clearly, irrefutably receive vile abuse based on there gender just because they make videos on sexism and your main takeaway is that the victims behaviour is unsavoury. You believe that they're exaggerating in some way for their gain because it's apparently not enough that there are many ways to see mountains of undeniably real abuse they've received. You've also singled them out for the crimes of inaccurate game portrayals, not being a gamer (probably bullshit) and using the popular website kickstarter to raise money, the function of the website. You're stuck halfway between justifying the abuse she's received and outright denying it. These, in my opinion, are the actions of a pretty awful person who is completely blinded by their prejudices.
I love graphs. Where's the one for that study that takes into account the number of men compared to the number of women who do those jobs and their part time status?Which part of these studies taking into account experience, education and performance is difficult to understand?
Let's try a graph, people like graphs.
(In America)
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-06-21/equal-pay-plaintiffs-burden-of-proof
They did get some harrassment, but they also exaggerated and lied about a lot of it. I am also not sexist. Of course they are doing it for their own gain, look at the gaming media, and their horrible articles about gamers and the amoutn of money they have both made since their controversy? Wow, I am blinded by perceived prejudices, if only you knew.
CEO's don't work part time. That, for one, is pretty much a 24/7 kinda job.
Everyone should be force fed elementary statistics and data analysis before using such information in an argument.
You should just give up now, Conrad's done you.
I do kind of wish my maths teacher was better. I'm pretty sure my mathematical ability decreased from the age of 12 until I left school.
It's not a dig at you mate.
How about the difference in the number of women actually do the job in comparison to the number of men who do? Do you even read what you link?
This is from your link:
Only some of the pay gap is the result of discrimination by employers. Men crowd into high-paying fields like engineering, while women dominate lower-paying fields like education and social service. And women are more likely than men to fall off the career track when they have children. They take time off and lose skills, or they opt for less-demanding jobs so they can spend more time at home. Most fathers, in contrast, manage to skate through parenthood without the slightest harm to their careers. Employers could offer family-friendlier policies on leave and flextime, but they can’t be blamed for dads who don’t do enough around the house.
In a 2009 report commissioned by the Department of Labor, Consad Research of Pittsburgh concluded that all but 5¢ to 7¢ of the wage gap could be explained by factors other than outright discrimination. “It is not possible now, and doubtless will never be possible, to determine reliably whether any portion of the observed gender wage gap … can confidently be attributed to overt discrimination against women,” the contractors wrote.
And as far as the "men negotiate more", I really don't doubt it. Society doesn't like women who try negotiate a better deal for themselves.
He hasn't done me at all. hhe thinks I'm prejudiced towards women? Well I can dig through the caf and find a thread that shows the opposite.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/kir...-university-and-have-children-younger.391839/
I was so angered I hadn't actually read it properly.
It is but even these studies you cling to cannot prove what you are stating as fact. That's why it's better to go on what you do know. Do you know any women who get paid less than their male counterparts for doing the same job? I don't.
For the gazillionth time. Individual experiences are meaningless to data. Most of my female friends make more money than me, that doesn't change the fact that my gender on average makes more than they do.
For example?
Girls who take charge of something are accused of being "bossy", boys who take charge of something aren't commented upon.
The data you cling to is next to meaningless. Even those doing it can't prove it and state this. The data you link to is incomplete so it is practically useless. You can't tell a story without all the information.
Most of my female friends earn more than me. Using your logic, it would then be fair to assume women earn more than men. Which, as we know, is incorrect.
In your experience? I'm afraid that's meaningless.
You're never going to get a study that can 100% prove anything when it comes to these kind of socio-economic things with all the theoretically infinite factors that could be relevant with discrimination being just one as well as the effect of the sample size and what sample you take. That doesn't mean that a study isn't better than anecdotal evidence. A study can suggest a trend while anecdotal can't really do anything.