These aren’t the folks of MS-13 you’re describing they murder indiscriminately and treat humans like objects
El Salvador Mega Prison
- Thread starter Mr Pigeon
- Start date
These aren’t the folks of MS-13 you’re describing they murder indiscriminately and treat humans like objects
I'm not trying to make excuse for their treatment but there's a possibility that their prison conditions are relative to the living conditions of the country. It's a third world country and most people live in deplorable conditions.
The murder rate has drastically been going down so clearly it’s working for them
A quick google search on El Salvador will tell you that, and why, human rights for their criminal gangs isn't top of the list for most people. Realizing how bad murdering, torturing and raping anyone is, is quite the achievement, I know. But there are grey areas to this topic.
True, its a deterrent for regular people basically and minor crimes. But not at the severe end of the scale for stuff like rape and murder right? That is what the data suggests.
I don't see why making the prisons shittier is gonna make much difference. And treating people like animals is not going to solve anything. When they do eventually get out they're just going to be even more traumatised and have more hate in them than ever before, and so the negative cycle continues.
The real (decades long) problem is obviously the politics and corruption there, exacerbated massively by Americas constant meddling to ensure "the right" people stay in control.
I just had a quick read and it is a drastic change in the murder rate. It dropped by almost 50%. That's some insane numbers.
I'm pretty sure they exhausted all other options. We complain every day about where we live but those people are living in some seriously dangerous conditions.
Travel advice conserning El Salvador is something close to, nice place to visit, just don't go outside
I don't think I'd care about anything if that happened as my life would be over
I definitely wouldn’t assume they exhausted all other options. Look at the policing/rehabilitation/prison systems all round the world and it’s clear that it is quite rare that the requisite money and time is invested in the kinds of systems that are needed to reduce crime in the long term. It’s far easier to appeal to the lower common denominator and fight violence with state-subsidised violence.
You really aren't worth talking to on this topic. Total embarrassment.
God forbid someone's heart doesn't bleed for violent murderers.
Ok well I'm just being honest. You think I'd give a feck if I had good access to a toilet or being without shoes or a t-shirt if my family had been killed? I'd say that would be the least of my worries. If you think that's embarrassing well fine. Maybe I'd think I deserved it for killing people? Or maybe I'd be happy I did it and would accept all that's coming to me. fecked if I know. I wouldn't give a feck about much of anything in that situation.
Given that under your notion, you'd be there for the rest of your life? Abso-fecking-lutely. Life is long.
Oh I'd likely have ended it quite quickly if this hypothetical situation occurred. Are you enjoying this line of questioning by the way?
My heart doesn't bleed for murderers, I just know that this sort of punishment is not fit for purpose and does not drive down crime rates in the long term. I also believe all humans are entitled to their human rights (obviously, it's in the fecking name).
Your evasive and childish answers are highly frustrating and I'm going to have to bow out of this conversation.
Its certainly driven it down now.
Ok dude. I've explained how I feel about a bunch of murderers being denied t-shirts, shoes and abundant toilets and you have responded by asking me to explain what I would do if my family was murdered. Yet now I'm childish and evasive by answering you ridiculous questions honestly. You are a very strange person.
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And the overwhelming support proves that . You listen to some interviews and it’s heartbreaking how people had become used to the reality of murders.
You were the one talking about people's families being murdered
I was trying to impress the point that not all of the people going to this prison will be soulless super criminals.It is driving down crime now. Assuming you also believe in human rights for the citizens of El Salvador, what should be done to address gangs controlling every level of their society with the threat of violence and terror? Is their freedom from extortion, threats and killings not a human rights issue? I feel like we all have slightly different understandings or interpretations of human rights in this thread.
Yes, in the short term. I also believe someone already mentioned that it's unclear whether this is as a result of this policy or if it's because he's been making deals with these gangs, or perhaps a mix of the 2.
Human rights are human rights, there's no other interpretation. I think that these maniacs should be locked up but I also think that they're entitled to their human rights.
Yes because that's that situation for a lot of El Salvador citizens, who have had loved ones murdered by these brutes. These gang members will all be murderers so who cares about their feelings? Not me. I genuinely couldn't care less.You were the one talking about people's families being murdered
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So the Salvadoran people living at the mercy of these gangs, is that a human rights issue?
what human rights issues are these gangsters being denied? Keeping in mind they’re in one of the poorest countries in the world. Is it the crowded conditions? Don’t most 3 world countries have overcrowded prisons like Brazil, Colombia? If so, then is the solution to build more prisons? Hire healthcare professionals? Is that even viable in a dirt poor country like ES?
I think it's pretty clear why the crime rate has drastically reduced. They rounded up 10s of thousands of gang members without due process and put them in jail.
the government suspended constitutional rights like presumption of innocence in order to get them all in jail
With huge support from the population by the looks of it. I'd say that if most of us lived there and experienced what many of them have in the last decade we would likely feel the same.
thats one of the many awesome features of authoritarianism
Germans in 1934... Nah it's too early to invoke the law
Have you any evidence to back up that the population aren't in support of this? Everything I read suggests they are overall very supportive.
I have no idea if they support it or not. I am just taking your word for it that they do.
Ok well I'm only going by what I have read. There's lots of evidence out there to suggest the President is incredibly popular with the El Salvador citizens.
It's tempting to explain but I don't think it's worth the biscuit.
I think he is. They are/were sick of the traditional parties and he has huge support.
Having huge support does not make this right. It makes it possible.
It's tempting to explain but I don't think it's worth the biscuit.
I'm way too stoned to be in this thread
I wouldn't be surprised to find it helps.I'm way too stoned to be in this thread
You and lots of people are confusing two issues: arresting lots of people and how they're treated in prison.
Yes, arresting tons of people probably did help with the murder rate - even if there's some debate there. (If the government struck a deal with the gangs, then long-term they might just have engrained the gangs into society more. But yes, rates are definitely down now.) And I did mention before that experts say that a higher chance of being arrested does work as a deterrent against crime.
But: once they're off the street they're off the street. What's the purpose of dehumanizing them in prison? Experts also agree (from what I've seen) that heavier sentencing and harsher prison regimes do not work as a deterrent (regardless of what people instinctively believe). Further, comparing prison regimes around the world shows that harsher environments actually mostly lead to further criminalization of inmates and hence high recidivism rates. Yes, those prison regimes are cheap to run, but over the long run, that exacts a heavier price (socially and economically) on society than running nicer prisons, which are more expensive but return people to society in a much better mental state.
So, if you look at the original post: what's the point of these awful prisons? Sure, it's cheap and it feels good for anyone who's been a victim for this - but what will El Salvador gain from this in the long run? (Again, the counterargument is not that at least these people are off the streets. They've been arrested so that's a given. We're talking about what's happening after, when they go to prison.)
Also, the options are not either Norwegian (relative) luxury or these prisons' awfulness. Obviously, 'decent circumstances' is relative to what's considered decent in the relevant country.
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Good post. We’re seeing a lot of talk about recidivism and deterrence. Another school of thought is retributive justice, which I can imagine the Salvadoran people are in support of. Maybe they don’t care about recidivism or deterrence and consider that secondary in importance. Or they believe that these violent gangsters are beyond rehabilitating and reintegration, having a “feck them” attitude and want these thugs rounded up and locked up in poor conditions or not. I don’t know if these horrid prison conditions are by design, or if it’s just a financial issue being a poor country.
I find the amount of posts signaling that the posters themselves don't know a lot about things (like research on crime, law enforcement issues, and even El Salvador current state) and then somehow establish some very loose -if connected at all- events as undeniable facts, worrying.
I would find refreshing that people were also able to say "I disagree/don't believe in human rights, at least not in all of them" instead of recurring to whataboutism. I think it would guide us to a healthier debate.
The human rights issue, coincidentally or not, tends to be an easy target for most authoritarian regimes out there, and most if not all of them (surprise) have insanely high approval ratings and some questionable statistics in the making.
I would find refreshing that people were also able to say "I disagree/don't believe in human rights, at least not in all of them" instead of recurring to whataboutism. I think it would guide us to a healthier debate.
The human rights issue, coincidentally or not, tends to be an easy target for most authoritarian regimes out there, and most if not all of them (surprise) have insanely high approval ratings and some questionable statistics in the making.