El Salvador Mega Prison

I’m fine with this. As are most Salvadorans that I know. Ms13 started in LA and their influence has grown to many states and past the country’s borders, most significantly in El Salvador where a lot of these California gangbangers are deported to and treated like gods. Any Salvadoran will tell you these gangs effectively control the country. Controlling cities and towns big and small by taxing, extorting, threatening, and terrorizing every day citizens. Their violence is largely unchecked with such poorly paid and trained police forces.
It will take more extreme measures to combat. It’s an impoverished country so of course that needs to be addressed too. But comparing prison conditions in Norway to the US or El Salvador is pointless without also examining population demographics, economy, crime trends, cultures etc.
 
Sviken said:
Sorry, but the United Nations is a joke organization that nobody respects and their 'rules' are not even worth a spit. We've seen how well their rules and charters work when Ukraine was invaded by a permanent nation on the council. Every country has first and foremost duty to its citizens first and the opinion of some bureaucrats in Manhattan doesn't matter. If it works, and Salvadorians quite clearly agree with this considering the populartity of Bukele, who are you to argue? Neither you or I are citizens of El Salvador.
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El Salvador are a member of the UN, so maybe they should follow their rules don't you think.

Once again you're mistaking your opinion for fact, which is funny given how quick you are to reply to folk with "that's just your opinion".
 
choiboyx012 said:
I’m fine with this. As are most Salvadorans that I know. Ms13 started in LA and their influence has grown to many states and past the country’s borders, most significantly in El Salvador where a lot of these California gangbangers are deported to and treated like gods. Any Salvadoran will tell you these gangs effectively control the country. Controlling cities and towns big and small by taxing, extorting, threatening, and terrorizing every day citizens. Their violence is largely unchecked with such poorly paid and trained police forces.
It will take more extreme measures to combat. It’s an impoverished country so of course that needs to be addressed too. But comparing prison conditions in Norway to the US or El Salvador is pointless without also examining population demographics, economy, crime trends, cultures etc.
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People miss this not just for prison but even politics, democracy and social institutions. Not every country has the capability, resources or situation of Norway.

Also, you bet your ass if a similar gang was active in Norway there would be similar aggression.
 
adexkola said:
Ok this is bullshit

1. Crime started to fall during Dinkins' tenure as mayor. Giuliani took credit for it but the crime drop already started
2. Crime dropped nationwide in most American cities in Giuliani's tenure. Some cities had those policies. Some didn't. So yeah, Giuliani profited from a nationwide decline in crime. His policies didn't shift the needle much
3. His policies were ABHORRENT. They had a negative impact on minorities in the city. Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell's deaths can be directly traced to Giuliani's transformation of the NYPD into an even more antagonistic force against the city's residents. Stop and frisk was declared unconstitutional. So let's even say his policies were effective (they weren't), they were wrong and illegal and dehumanizing. Why on earth would you point to him as some sort of criminal justice mastermind?
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just to add to this a little bit, crime dropped globally by around 50% starting in the 80s and continuing in the 90s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_drop#Environmental_factors

interestingly some believe the onset of unleaded petrol is one of the causes
 
This is going in circles now, or at least the part where I was involved, so I'll just leave it there. I think I've said my bit.
 
I’m actually agreeing with some of the points shamans & DJ Jeff are making. I certainly didn’t have that on today’s personal bingo card.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
El Salvador are a member of the UN, so maybe they should follow their rules don't you think.

Once again you're mistaking your opinion for fact, which is funny given how quick you are to reply to folk with "that's just your opinion".
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So is Russia, but it didn't stop them from invading Ukraine, did it? Nobody cares about the UN and certainly its rules are not above that of the nation state itself.
 
Sviken said:
Oh really? Is that why countries like Singapore and Japan, who generally have harsh punishments, are thousand times safer than countries like Sweden and Denmark who have more lenient punishments? In medieval times Mongol territories were among the safest to reside in precisely because Mongol punishment was severe. We can even look further down to ancient Rome as an example. Fact is, harsh punishment deters crimes. In terms of human nature, when there is a possibility of severe punishment for your actions, most people would think twice before doing it. And if it wasn't, they'd just do it because then only the morals, which are usually fickle, determine your behavior.
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The actual reason Singapore and particularly Japan have lower rates of crime is due to two main reasons, much higher detection rates, the harsh punishment though does not lead to lower rates of recidivism. Criminals instead join gangs or less organised groups and upon release carry out their criminal acts upon each other which these police forces either do not mind because it's rarely reported, rarely affects the 'civilian population' or because they are bribed well. Clearly you understand how to read and relay statistics but you obviously don't look into what the stats prove.
 
Cheimoon said:
This is going in circles now, or at least the part where I was involved, so I'll just leave it there. I think I've said my bit.
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I commend your efforts, I already regret coming in here, Something the Harsh on Crime Lobby always seem to forget when quoting the USA in being successful in Prisons reducing crime figures is the 3 Strikes rule which has helped add to a much higher proportion of minorities being placed in prisons on much higher rates of imprisonment than majority white people, it's racist and as many have seen over recent years it doesn't get much harsher than being sat on or shot before ever reaching a trial - we won't call them fair because of the legal advice that is available to them or the fact you may never get a trial are prejudicial to them receiving a fair judgement by your peers. Here's some easy reading material to explain : - https://www.themarshallproject.org/2020/11/04/the-truth-about-trials

More importantly it's understanding why Recidivism and challenging harsh punishment are important or understand why Harsh Imprisonment does not improve the societies we live in more 'enlightened' times. : - https://rm.coe.int/16806f9905
 
I think the situation in El Salvador is very particular. I understand many points of both sides, but ultimately it is up to salvadorians. As a person that live in wealthy country with a comfortable living standards I would love to see prison as a reinsertion tool for prisoners and not creating a resentful criminal that doesn't see options after leaving prison. I dont think El Salvador has the tools and resources and the situation there seems unsustainable to gang crime.

Bukele has incredible high approval rate in a country that we can believe is correct or close enough, so it seems that is what salvadorians want for now in their country, that is not ours.
 
I find the science discussions here particularly interesting. I think it's good to realize that there can be disagreement among scientists on methodology and such, and that sometimes media outlets have wrong or misleading interpretations of studies. Which isn't necessarily surprising as statistics is a pretty tough discipline.

It's always good to have the above in mind.

Example:

How Unsupported Causal Claims Lead Organizations Astray
A 2020 Washington Post article examined the correlation between police spending and crime. It concluded that, “A review of spending on state and local police over the past 60 years…shows no correlation nationally between spending and crime rates.” This correlation is misleading. An important driver of police spending is the current level of crime, which creates a chicken and egg scenario. Causal research has, in fact, shown that more police lead to a reduction in crime.
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https://hbr.org/2021/11/leaders-stop-confusing-correlation-with-causation
 
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shamans said:
we’re going in circles and I don’t know why. You ask for evidence where harsh sentences are a deterrent and I keep giving you example of NYC in the 90s where harsh sentences as a deterrent drastically changed the crime statistics.

So yeah I’m lost
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Jumping in here to link something someone else said.

There's an alternate theory to the "broken windows" theory to show that legal, safe, and affordable abortion becoming available is a very strong possible reason for the decline in crime that gets attributed to Giuliani. There is also significant research behind it.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Jumping in here to link something someone else said.

There's an alternate theory to the "broken windows" theory to show that legal, safe, and affordable abortion becoming available is a very strong possible reason for the decline in crime that gets attributed to Giuliani. There is also significant research behind it.
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And there's other studies that show the decline in NYC wasn't exceptional at all, Rudi was just in the right place at the right time. Violent crime went down in the entire developed world and many attribute it to the banishment of lead from fuel.


If harsher prisons led to more deterrence the US and Scandinavia would look very differently. In reality the prisons don't play much role in the decisions of criminals because they don't think they'll be caught anyway.
 
I assume there's little to no interest in rehabilitating these gang members, as I understand the intention is that they'll remain in prison for decades. It's obviously inhumane to treat men like this, but I doubt if many law-abiding people in El Salvador care much about that.

It's cruel and unusual punishment, all the same. I think a fair number of them will die in there.
 
Penna said:
I assume there's little to no interest in rehabilitating these gang members, as I understand the intention is that they'll remain in prison for decades. It's obviously inhumane to treat men like this, but I doubt if many law-abiding people in El Salvador care much about that.

It's cruel and unusual punishment, all the same. I think a fair number of them will die in there.
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The countries murder rate has dropped 57% since they put these gang members in jail. I'd say that most of the population that live in El Salvador would not worry to much about these guys not having a great time after living through the everyday death and destruction they wrought.
 
balaks said:
The countries murder rate has dropped 57% since they put these gang members in jail. I'd say that most of the population that live in El Salvador would not worry to much about these guys not having a great time after living through the everyday death and destruction they wrought.
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I realise people who were being terrorised by these gangs will just be relieved. That's understandable. However, if you're going to sweep them all off the streets and put them in a huge prison, there could be a nod to the fact that these are human beings, not cattle.
 
Penna said:
I assume there's little to no interest in rehabilitating these gang members, as I understand the intention is that they'll remain in prison for decades. It's obviously inhumane to treat men like this, but I doubt if many law-abiding people in El Salvador care much about that.

It's cruel and unusual punishment, all the same. I think a fair number of them will die in there.
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The idea is, from what I heard from the president, is that the people left outside don't dare to do anything "out of order" because of what is going to happen to their guys inside. They also have apparently had their internet connections cut off as to not contact anyone on outside for murders. If it works, It works. I don't know why some people are so sad about a bunch of gangbangers that will skin your entire family, including children, just for the fun of it.
 
Penna said:
I realise people who were being terrorised by these gangs will just be relieved. That's understandable. However, if you're going to sweep them all off the streets and put them in a huge prison, there could be a nod to the fact that these are human beings, not cattle.
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I don't think the people of El Salvador care about the welfare of the gang members at all because many of them will have been directly impacted by the murder, extortion,etc the gangs brought to the streets. It's very easy to moralise over something you have never had to live through personally. If your son or father had been brutally murdered for no reason by one of these guys I'd say you probably would be cheering at the footage of thousands of them getting locked up.
 
balaks said:
I don't think the people of El Salvador care about the welfare of the gang members at all because many of them will have been directly impacted by the murder, extortion,etc the gangs brought to the streets. It's very easy to moralise over something you have never had to live through personally. If your son or father had been brutally murdered for no reason by one of these guys I'd say you probably would be cheering at the footage of thousands of these guys getting locked up.
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Who guarantees it will only be gang members getting locked up?
 
VorZakone said:
Who guarantees it will only be gang members getting locked up?
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They arrested anyone with a gang tattoo. You only get that if you are a gang member. You only become a gang member if you have murdered someone. That's your initiation into this gang from what I have read.
 
balaks said:
I don't think the people of El Salvador care about the welfare of the gang members at all because many of them will have been directly impacted by the murder, extortion,etc the gangs brought to the streets. It's very easy to moralise over something you have never had to live through personally. If your son or father had been brutally murdered for no reason by one of these guys I'd say you probably would be cheering at the footage of thousands of them getting locked up.
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Well, I kind of said that in my previous post. I'm not moralising, I'm simply saying that human beings shouldn't be herded like animals.

I think it's really good that they're off the streets. That's a different argument.
 
Sviken said:
Sorry, but the United Nations is a joke organization that nobody respects and their 'rules' are not even worth a spit. We've seen how well their rules and charters work when Ukraine was invaded by a permanent nation on the council. Every country has first and foremost duty to its citizens first and the opinion of some bureaucrats in Manhattan doesn't matter. If it works, and Salvadorians quite clearly agree with this considering the populartity of Bukele, who are you to argue? Neither you or I are citizens of El Salvador.
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What is this opinion? The United Nations is a joke so human rights don't exist?

This is how you end up with fascism.
 
Penna said:
Well, I kind of said that in my previous post. I'm not moralising, I'm simply saying that human beings shouldn't be herded like animals.

I think it's really good that they're off the streets. That's a different argument.
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What way would you rather they were moved?
 
Penna said:
Wearing a teeshirt and shoes and having more than two toilets for 100 men, possibly.
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God love them the poor souls. I'm lacking in much sympathy for them personally. Maybe they shouldn't have been a gang member and murdered innocent people.
 
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balaks said:
God love them the poor souls. I'm lacking in much sympathy for them personally. Maybe they shouldn't have been a gang member and murdered innocent people.
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I feel similarly about this.
 
Rado_N said:
Bluddy librul bleedin ‘art do-gudder
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Oh they was born bad guvnor. De-humanise 'em, treat 'em like animals, in a few decades or at the next regime change you'll have worse animals on the streets with even more love and goodness in their 'arts.
 
oates said:
Oh they was born bad guvnor. De-humanise 'em, treat 'em like animals, in a few decades or at the next regime change you'll have worse animals on the streets with even more love and goodness in their 'arts.
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Solution is of course to never release them and make it a whole life sentence to be in that gang. Problem solved.
 
balaks said:
Maybe they shouldn't have been a gang member and murdered innocent people.
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This argument also applies to even more extreme consequences, such as death penalty or even more sadistic forms of torture; and it doesn't necessarily apply to the worst crimes: if someone has stolen a loaf of bread and the punishment is losing a hand then you know they shouldn't have stolen it.
 
cafecillos said:
This argument also applies to even more extreme consequences, such as death penalty or even more sadistic forms of torture; and it doesn't necessarily apply to the worst crimes: if someone has stolen a loaf of bread and the punishment is losing a hand then you know they shouldn't have stolen it.
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I'm talking about this specific situation in el Salvador. It's up to the people of El Salvador to decide what to do with these men and as their country has essentially been destroyed by this gang and many citizens will have lost family members I'm not surprised they are going in very hard on them. Rightly so in my opinion.

57% drop in murder rate almost overnight!! Just think about that. If I lived there I'd be absolutely delighted.
 
balaks said:
Solution is of course to never release them and make it a whole life sentence to be in that gang. Problem solved.
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So then you become responsible for driving gang members underground as such, where they stop identifying themselves and they literally go to war on all of the authorities etc etc.
 
oates said:
So then you become responsible for driving gang members underground as such, where they stop identifying themselves and they literally go to war on all of the authorities etc etc.
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Which makes it much more difficult for them to do the damage they inflicted before this happened. You can never stop all crime but you can certainly dramatically reduce it if you know it's one group doing the majority of it.
 
nimic said:
How? Do you reckon this is the only gang in El Salvador?
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No but it is by far the biggest and most influential. This will also send a message to other gangs about what the response will be from the authorities. I'm genuinely bemused why people think this is a bad thing. This gang is responsible for hundreds of deaths every year and the population live in fear of them. Getting rid of this gang should be applauded.
 
balaks said:
Which makes it much more difficult for them to do the damage they inflicted before this happened. You can never stop all crime but you can certainly dramatically reduce it if you know it's one group doing the majority of it.
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It's not one group now is it? But I can see it's pointless discussing it with you, you obviously know a lot about it.
 
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