Threads like this one are always interesting because they show how many people don’t care for human rights and don’t understand them at all. It’s sad, but interesting.
El Salvador Mega Prison
- Thread starter Mr Pigeon
- Start date
It's one group of people I mean in a variety of gangs. Primarily the M-18 and MS-13 gangs.
I understand and care about them for your average person but I also think that people who do terrible things don't deserve to be treated particularly well.
And this just proofs that you don’t understand human rights. At all.
Okay, I just thought the argument that "they shouldn't have done it" doesn't sound particularly specific to me.
I do understand them. I work with human rights legislation every day in my job as it happens. Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything in the legislation. If someone murdered my family I don't think I would shed a tear if the person who did it had their human rights infringed. That's just me of course. Maybe you would be fighting for their human rights to be upheld. Fair play you are probably a better person than me.
Examples of legislation that you disagree with?
Would you be fighting for someone to have their human rights upheld if they had murdered your family? It's the idea that everyone should have human rights upheld under any circumstance no matter what they have done. I have a problem with that personally however this doesn't mean I approve of torture or capital punishment (I don't) but I certainly wouldn't be worrying too much about them being in a bit of discomfort in not very good conditions if they have committed horrendous crimes.
As I said, pointless debating with you but if we could leave this after this answer from me, I mean it's a bit tiring.
Crime abhors a vacuum, others will move in to fill it, over decades smaller less easily identified gangs and also the remnants of MS13 and M18 gang members not tattooing themselves will remember what prison was like for their associates, they'll do anything and everything not to get caught, so what's different about now? Not a lot, judges, police members, prosecutors, members of the public will continue to be targeted and caught up in the violence and murders. That's what happens when you de-humanise people and turn them into animals.
Your constant references to what victims of horrendous crimes feel make it obvious you don't.
Help me understand your point then. I am coming from this with a bit of personal experience just to make you aware.
Most victims and families of victims of Anders Behring Breivik did not want him to be treated at all differently than any other Norwegian prisoner. Which is a great testament to their humanity, but honestly doesn't even actually matter, because the justice system can obviously never be built on "what if your family was murdered".
If you approve of this prison, you do indeed approve of torture.
If you think it's pointless debating with me then probably best to not do it.
Why not though. They simply shouldn't have commited the crime.
I don't see that as torture. It's a bit uncomfortable sure. Boo hoo.
I have my own reasons for that. I don't believe in physically hurting another human being however I'm fine with locking them up and throwing away the key depending on what they have done. I feel we are in danger of going off topic as I'm getting an attempted character assassination here.
Well you keep posting to me and I'm afraid when I see a question I'm inclined to answer it.
I'm not saying a justice system should be built on that I'm merely expressing what my own feelings would be in that situation because I would guess many in el Salvador feel the same way and as it's their country they can choose how to deal with it.
I just saw your reference to personal experience, I didn't mean it like that. I think there's much credit in their views, but I don't begrudge the ones that can't bring themselves there. Everyone is entitled to their own reaction to loss. I just think for society to work, we have to try to completely detatch the process of justice from those kinds of feelings (while also allowing people to express them).
Society also can't work with huge gangs roaming the streets murdering and threatening the population. Something had to be done and they did it. I have much more empathy with those innocent people in el Salvador who felt intimidated or lost friends and family rather than the gang members who caused such terror and pain.
I see posts in here from people who thankfully have probably never lived in a society who's population is under constant threat of death or intimidation saying how bad it is these guys were herded like cattle and there not being enough toilets for them and I roll my eyes. I understand why people may say that but it's the people in el Salvador we should be protecting not these guys.
Those guys made their choice with their lives and the innocent victims had all their choice taken away from them. The gang members shouldn't be tortured however they shouldn't be treated great either and ideally they should never see the light of day again. That's my own view and if that makes me a bad person well I can live with that.
That Norway prison is better than probably 85% of Indonesian home. Plus the internet and free library? People would just do silly things to get into it.
You westerner should stop judging everything from your modern point of view. It really isnt that simple as in it works in Norway. Huzzah
You westerner should stop judging everything from your modern point of view. It really isnt that simple as in it works in Norway. Huzzah
You do realize libraries are free outside of prison too? And people aren't doing silly things to get into it, because it's still prison and nobody wants their freedom of movement to be taken away from them. The numbers back that up, the Norwegian prison population is fairly small.
I guess I can see why you wouldn't mind it, though. After all, you were all for those nice "re-education" camps in Xinjiang.
In my book, when toy deliberately take a life of an innocent person, you lose some of the human rights.
The violent crime has dropped for 60% during this president’s tenure, and his approval rate is on 90s. He obviously is doing a good job, and I am more inclined to trust people of El-Salvador whose country was destroyed by these thugs, then Europeans whom biggest crime they might face is getting their bicycle stolen.
The vast majority of Salvadorans seem to be delighted with this
Even if you think human rights should be contigent on your behaviour, and only be protected for the 'innocent' in society, would you really trust that only the truly bad criminals could have their rights taken away from them?
Removal of human rights from any group for any reason is the thin end of a disgusting wedge, where we end up with human rights being for the 'correct' individuals only and not for others. And dont say this wouldnt happen because we already have people in the UK baying for some to have their human rights removed simply for having the audacity to cross the channel on a boat and try to be with their family.
Removal of human rights from any group for any reason is the thin end of a disgusting wedge, where we end up with human rights being for the 'correct' individuals only and not for others. And dont say this wouldnt happen because we already have people in the UK baying for some to have their human rights removed simply for having the audacity to cross the channel on a boat and try to be with their family.
I'll never understand statements like these. I understand that people think human rights aren't or shouldn't be a thing, or that particular things shouldn't be human rights while other things should, but it's so baffling when people in the same sentence say that they support human rights and that they don't.
You cannot care about human rights for the average person, if that's the case you think it's not a human right but a right contingent on average behaviour. It's like saying you believe in universal healthcare, but that only those who can pay for it should get healthcare. A lot of people think you should only get what you can pay for, but those people don't believe universal healthcare should be a thing. They are mutually exclusive beliefs.
At a stretch, maybe it could be reconciled if you think their human rights are being broken, but that you think that's a good thing. That implies some strange things about what rights are, though.
Do nothing and It is no good, do something and it is no good. Nobody wins… ever.
Thanks and it really doesn't matter where they came from. They have completely taken over long island. The crimes they have committed here are so brutal, some involving teenagers. The world would be a safer place if they're locked up.
I don't condone the inhumane treatment and prison conditions because that won't help at all. It's just going to make them more rebellious and when they eventually get out, they'll want to take that out on someone. I've always believed in second chances and rehabilitation but some would argue that not everyone can be rehabilitated. Regardless, everyone needs to get that chance. One rehabilitated criminal off the streets is better than none. We're all humans after all.
There is a wide chasm between doing nothing and treating prisoners like cattle.
I’d like to see it with stats then. Just like the popular alternate theory that crime was going down under Dinkins and Giuliani just took credit for it which I busted a few posts back, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just fudging with numbers.
We all dislike Giuliani so there’s been a weird attempt to rewrite history back then. Reality is NYC went from somewhat the crime capital of US to one of the safest during his time as mayor.
Economies of scale. Beautiful.
when you start deciding a certain group don't deserve basic human rights because of whatever reason it never ends well does it?
I get that prisons need to be a punishment and deterrent, but they can surely be that without degrading people and treating them like cattle
I get that prisons need to be a punishment and deterrent, but they can surely be that without degrading people and treating them like cattle
It really does not because their brothers see how they're treated and they take it out on whoever they could get their hands on. They're everywhere. It just adds to their hatred for everyone who gets in their way. Their philosophy: They're hurting our brothers so we'll keeping making the people pay. I think they'll keep hurting people either way but inhumane treatment could have more of a negative effect rather than a positive one.
Look, Tarrou. They’ve tried absolutely nothing and they’re all out of ideas, so I’d like to see you do better.
To active gang members of ms-13 a regular prison is not much of a deterrent. These guys operate on fear and being feared. You put them in those beautiful Norwegian IKEA scale and their recruitment numbers will skyrocket
What if someone killed your family and in return, you murdered them and were sent to this hell hole? What would you think about your human rights then?
well, putting them in a Norwegian style prison would be ridiculous. But there is a massive delta between that and stripping their basic human rights.
it's common knowledge that prisons are not good deterrents against crime, but it gets them off the streets which is important
That common knowledge is not true for every case prison may not be good for the sort of regular crime we talk about. Stealing cars and bikes and breaking into houses is a whole different story than these degenerates who would kill you if you refused to join their gang
The Norway point is just an extreme example but at what point are you even doing “something” to deter these gangs. They’ve had a normal prison with normal sentencing for years and nothing has come of it. That doesn’t deter such violent criminals so they had to take it up a notch.
Seen a few folks here talk about there being an in between so what would that be for a country in this situation.