Yeah he talks crap (reg transfers), then plays the victim card when he gets called out.
Eduardo Camavinga / signs for Real Madrid
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Honestly there is nothing to say about the game against Switzerland from a tactical standpoint particularly regarding Pogba who was the least lost of all players, the same would be true for Benzema. Pogba and Kanté played in a midfield two in a 3412, Pogba roughly played where he was supposed to while Kanté was all over the place probably due to Rabiot doing eveything but the role of a left wingback. People only reimagined Pogba's game after the 3rd goal from Switzerland which tells you everything you need to know about these people. Pogba received a ball under pressure while being surrounded by 4 opponents in the opposing half, Benzema who was himself under pressure from three of these opponents dumped the hot potato to Pogba who had no obvious solutions and was quickly tackled from behind, now the interesting thing regarding the narrative that Pogba caused the third goal is that France had 5 players behind Pogba (Pavard, Kimpembe, Rabiot, Kanté and Varane), these players messed up and Kimpembe more than the rest, he left his man to cover the left wing and then overcompensated when he realized his mistake, that opponent was the goalscorer. France had the numerical advantage but the defensive players failed.
Also Pirlo has never done any donkey work in his career, he has spent the entirety of it being shielded by teammates because he has never been a mobile or aggressive player. The way juventus worked was a mix of containment from the defenders, wingbacks and Pogba-Pirlo while the attackers and Vidal would harrass the opposition and try to force mistakes. And it was pretty much the same logic with Allegri too.
Sounds about right. I’ve tried to get him on the banned sources for years but I’m told he gets United people on his podcast, though I see no correlation with the rubbish he posts
Good post as always.
I’m sure you’ve said this repeatedly already so apologies in advance. Do you think he can work in a 4 3 3 or 4 2 3 1 with Bruno if we got someone more defensively dependable like Rice in beside him and Varane in defence behind them? I still maintain that it would probably leave too much work for the last midfielder?
I'll join you on said pissing into your eyes
you are a riot1. Pirlo was unable to do ANY donkey work. He wasn't a beast defensively. He in fact had very minimal defensive responsibility at the base and at the center of both Conte and Allegri's systems. Pogba was one of two players doing all the ball winning and defensive running for him.
2. Vidal played NO WHERE NEAR Pogba to do ANY defensive work for him. He was either on the opposite flank to Pogba, or having Pogba support him from behind as he operate as the 10.
The ONLY defensive help he ever got was from his fullback.
Quit lying.....
You have to be down right deluded to try and claim Pirlo was more capable than Pogba defensively. Stark raving made to claim in Juve's diamond he had minimal to no defensive responsibility and was being covered on the left flank of a diamond.
I'm not ignoring a thing. I'm rather calling out your ludicrous and invented lies about Pogba
Our need for investment is overblown. Our problems lie in defence. Not midfield.
A round of aplause
“During his time at Juventus he enjoyed a similar set-up to France, as Andrea Pirlo and Arturo Vidal held firm to let Pogba express himself. The three-man midfield was a constant even as the team switched between 3-5-2 and 4-3-3” four four two.
He was always an attacking player with them. He doesn’t fit with Bruno in any 3.
Conte publicly ripped him several times for not defending with Juve and that’s with Pirlo and Vidal behind him. You’re the one pushing an agenda that he shouldn’t have to defend in midfield.
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Brilliant post as always!
The narrative from UK pundits was that France played a 3-5-2 system against the Swiss.
I’ve been saying that since day dot, our need is a better than Lindelof CB so maguire can focus on his own game
Pogba definitely can play in a 4231 or 433. But not when Bruno plays like a second striker/inside forward for large portions of games, if you look at how Portugal used Bruno at the end of their game against Belgium, I believe that it is his best role, when he is deeper Bruno can exploit two of his best qualities, his aggression and his ablity to control the rhythm. So for example if I was Ole, I would play Pogba has an attacking 8 on the left, Bruno has a defensive 8 on the right and probably use Fred behind them with Camavinga as the soon to be starter in a more dynamic style since he doesn't have Pirlo's passing range.
Now how does it work? When you attack your front three is supported by Pogba and Bruno, you are roughly positioned in a 2323. In defensive transition the main role of your DM is to be a sweeper in front of the central defense and cover the east-west axe. When you are in your defensive set instead of being in 4123, you can be in 4231, with Bruno pressuring the ball carrier if his centrally or cutting passing angles through the middle while Pogba and the DM cover gaps behind him. In modern football you also need the support of your attackers, they don't have to be great defenders but they need to provoke mistakes and that's where the 6 second rule becomes important for dominant teams, since you don't want to have many defensive specialists your best bet is to force the opposition to give you the ball quickly after you lost it and attackers pressuring defenders intensily makes the lifes of defenders and midfielders easier because it limits the amount of clean exits.
What I just wrote is very basic, it's not based on Pogba and it helps everyone. It's essentially what Guardiola, Bielsa and "modern" managers do, you can do it with our current players because it doesn't rely on a particular skillset outside of the DM not being slow. So could Rice help? Yes, but there is a dozen of other players that could help, one of them is already in the team.
Expecting Pirlo to do any defending is like expecting De Gea to save a penalty. A rarity.
You know, just because you add more laughing emojis, doesn't make it any funnier?
In Conte's 3-5-2 set up he played to the left of Pirlo whilst the likes of Vidal and Marchsio played to Pirlo's right. Meaning to one side Pogba had a wingback, to the other Pirlo. The notion that he 'played next two defensive players" is so laughably untrue. Just picture Pirlo doing 'most of the defensive work'
Even in Allegri's diamond. He operated the left flank of the diamond. The marchsio's on the right. With Vidal or Tevez operating at the tip. He STILL wasn't next to ' two defensive players next to him doing all the donkey work." He had just a fullback and Pirlo behind him. He in fact was doing the donkey work for Pirlo in the midfield, to Pirlo's left....
Some of you have become so good at lying on Pogba you created this entire alternate life for Pogba were he operated as a free role 10 at Juve being carried by 2 defensive work horses
Greame Souness anyone?
Whilst donkey work was the wrong phrase, Pirlo was a genius for his positioning and defensive contribution in that sense and the ability to intercept play, we don't have anyone like that. Whilst Pogba is fine at applying the press, it's not because he's good at the defensive side of the game and Juve used 5 defenders and Vidal to protect themselves in that regard. The idea that because he could press means he could do anything well defensively is a bit daft. A striker can press.
If tackling and running are enough to be a top quality DM then we'll have the likes of Robbie Savage or McTom being rated at par to the likes of Rijkaard, Keane or Ancelotti. A defensive midfielder need to have good positioning, he also need to read the game and to take decisions quickly. Dilly dallying too much with the ball might lead to loss of ball possession or goal opportunities. He needs to make himself available to his team mates to make the transition of the ball from defence to attack as quick and as smooth as possible.
Pogba struggles on all of that. He'll do well with a Vidal, a Pirlo or a Kante type of player because they will close the gaps on his behalf and will guide him on were to go and how to act. Unfortunately he can't do that on his own. In the past that wouldn't be a problem as specialised play makers were pretty much the norm (Riquelme and Veron to name a few). Unfortunately these days midfielders are expected to be able to do pretty much everything. Which is kind of a bummer for a player like Pogba.
Pogba struggles on all of that. He'll do well with a Vidal, a Pirlo or a Kante type of player because they will close the gaps on his behalf and will guide him on were to go and how to act. Unfortunately he can't do that on his own. In the past that wouldn't be a problem as specialised play makers were pretty much the norm (Riquelme and Veron to name a few). Unfortunately these days midfielders are expected to be able to do pretty much everything. Which is kind of a bummer for a player like Pogba.
But he was always back there dictating so no need for Pogba to go back and dictate or anything like that. Vidal goes box to box and never pulls out of a tackle and he’s happy to defend. Even as by far the most attacking of the 3 Conte still expected Pogba to defend and criticised that side of his game publicly more than once.
Conte also did not hesitate in criticising Pogba, even after he scored a superb goal against Sampdoria in January 2014. "Tonight Pogba could've done a lot better," said Conte. "I'm not joking! I've certainly seen better performances from Paul. At times the goal fogs the vision of the whole game, but I get angry as people forget everything around it."
“However, a few weeks later Conte was effusive in his praise of the 20-year-old after a match against Torino. "Pogba was definitely more solid in midfield, he fought for every inch defensively and I think this was a very important game for him tonight. He's got great potential and could be a great player both offensively and defensively for Juventus. That is me saying this, remember I used to be up and down the field myself in my playing days. Paul can fulfil his potential and become a great champion. It's our duty to make him grow in the right way in order to understand the game and adapt to different situations."
Sounds to me like nothing much has changed and the debate goes on and on
If Conte, Deschamps, Jose and Ole can’t fully trust him to be a box to box at 28 or 29 or whatever age he is and Bruno is thriving as the most attacking of the 3 then we clearly have a problem fitting him in. Nothing more nothing less
Can we go back to Camavinga now?
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Hiya,
I'm looking for the Camavinga thread
I'm looking for the Camavinga thread
Pirlo wasn't Carrick. Sure he had great positioning, he was far more comfortable with the ball then Carrick was, he was a far better leader and tbh he was the better player. However Pirlo could never be the DM in the team. Carrick could live without being surrounded by the likes of Gattuso, Vidal and Marchisio, Pirlo could not.
WTF!
Is possible that some of you focus on the young guy from Rennes instead of arguing about a player that according to reports want to leave us.
Is possible that some of you focus on the young guy from Rennes instead of arguing about a player that according to reports want to leave us.
Also you are making a lot of excuses for Pogba here. I watched the game closely and followed Pogba, his defensive contribution throughout the 90 was pretty poor, consistently letting runners run off of him. And whilst you can try to excuse the last goal they conceded, they conceded three. That shows that whether or not it was 5 at the back it wasn't very strong defensively.
Of course, but because of how smart he was he was always responsible in the defensive aspect, the complete opposite to Pogba
Interestingly seeing Camavingas pass % shows he's quite responsible with the ball at least.
Stop talking about Pogba.
Why did you mention he who cannot be named?
Where are the lot of the excuses? Pogba roughly played where he was supposed to and Switzerland exploited the gaps behind Pavard and Rabiot not the center of the field. So I didn't make any excuses for Pogba because he doesn't require any while you are trying to put an emphasis on Pogba when anyone who watched the game could tell you what was wrong with France, the clue being how Switzerland scored their first two goals, crosses where the crosser was never pressured by the french fullbacks and I already described the third goal.
Indeed
What gave you the impression my aim was to be funny?
Great post. You’re one of my favourite posters on here. Always measured and classy. Certainly plenty of food for thought in the above. I don’t want to keep going on PP in this thread. He’s an enigma to me. I don’t fully get him and at this stage I doubt I ever will. I know he’ll kill it with PSG if he goes there but if we were ever playing them I’d certainly be focusing on pressing him and taking the ball off him in awkward areas. It’s a tactic thats worked against us here plenty.
Isnt it odd that something so visually easy to spot is missed by people who have already made up their mind about Pogba.
That bit about Pirlo is absolutely spot on. We have not managed Pogba well and the only times we have been close to challenging for anything is when Pogba has been fit and firing on all cylinder.
Probably the 10 laughing emojis.
@ Jim Beam :
I think he wishes to be a number 8 and he has the qualities to do it very well.
once thrown with the ball at the feet, it is very hard to stop, it is lively and runs quickly with the ball. He got a lot of fouls and cautions for the opponent which is always valuable
But if I were his coach I would put him number 6 because I have never seen such a young player occupy this position of high responsibility so well. He is excellent at defense, pressing and recovering the ball from the opponent's feet. He can still progress on his placement however
One last thing to remember to have an opinion on him. Last year our team was much less efficient than two years ago. More difficult for Cama to express himself, the expectations were out of proportion to him, and he was being watched. The departure of Raphinha and Edouard Mendy at the end of the transfer window were two hard knocks. He discovers his 1st Champions League and national selections. That's a lot for a 17 year old guy. I'm sure he will have digested it all and will confirm.
Thank you for your welcome, great forum, it made me want to watch Looking for Eric
Excellent post, thank you very much! And the stats back up your description.
Fair enough. Let's get back to Camavinga
France's 3 conceided goal vs Switzerland
1st one : Pavard fails to close in on Zuber who has all the time in the word to cross and Lenglet does Lenglet stuff in the box
2nd goal : Mbabu is left alone on the wing. Rabiot isnt even close to him he is in the box doing nothing, this is comedic positioning from Rabiot, Varane also gets eaten for breakfast in the box
3rd goal : Sure Pogba loses the ball but theres no one behind him, CBs are playing far too low and Kimpembe gets absolutely rinced for the goal
Blaming Pogba is weird, I don't think his defensive contribution led to the loss
1st one : Pavard fails to close in on Zuber who has all the time in the word to cross and Lenglet does Lenglet stuff in the box
2nd goal : Mbabu is left alone on the wing. Rabiot isnt even close to him he is in the box doing nothing, this is comedic positioning from Rabiot, Varane also gets eaten for breakfast in the box
3rd goal : Sure Pogba loses the ball but theres no one behind him, CBs are playing far too low and Kimpembe gets absolutely rinced for the goal
Blaming Pogba is weird, I don't think his defensive contribution led to the loss
Utter and complete lies. The Juve set up was Pirlo playing the deepest of the midfield as a quarter back, with minimal defensive brief. With Pogba to his left and Marchsio or Vidal to his right pressing, harrassing and winning the ball akin to NFL blockers when they operated a back 3. When they switched to a back 4, Pirlo was deepest with Pogba was to his left, Marchsio /Vidal to his right and Vidal ahead of them all if Tevez wasn't operating as the 10. This fanciful notion that Pogba was left "free to roam/express himself" with no serious defensive duty by supposedly Pirlo, and the likes of Vidal who were either to the opposite flank of his position or operating further ahead of him is beyond stupid. Because it has no basis in actual reality because it NEVER happened. Not at club level not for France
So when you find someone laughing at something. You believe its them trying to be funny? Rather than there being something that has actually made them laugh?
Pogba then
I just hope we steal a match on the likes of Real Madrid and Bayern Mnich and sign Camavinga. We wont regret it
Right, because you know way more than paid football journalists and world class managers who have no agenda, unlike you.
Go away out of it!
You should really head into the Pogba threads before you get me in trouble with @Sultan again just for replying to you
Camavinga!
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