Not denying he is a better ball player but specifically I was referencing him as a DM where his positioning and poor tackling are a liability and where even in his limited appearances he has been responsible for conceding two fairly crucial goals. He can do a job further up the pitch but rather like Pogba he is better suited to a system that we do not tend to use and so tends to be a square peg in a round hole when played.
Donny Van De Beek / LOAN to Everton
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Not denying he is a better ball player but specifically I was referencing him as a DM where his positioning and poor tackling are a liability and where even in his limited appearances he has been responsible for conceding two fairly crucial goals. He can do a job further up the pitch but rather like Pogba he is better suited to a system that we do not tend to use and so tends to be a square peg in a round hole when played.
Donny should probably be nowhere near that CDM position. He is a sub for Bruno at best but what do I know. Hope Im wrong and he plays CDM again and makes it his. Doubtful though.
We still have Matic and Fred who can play, it's been 5 days since our last game.
Told ya
Yeah fair enough I thought Fred was suspended as well though I'm not sure we should start magic.
This is now pure wickedness, he should force himself out this transfer window.
Really? Wickedness? Jesus, he is a professional on a contract. Who does he replace on that field? I tell you what, if he comes on he will slow the game right down.
He's the only midfielder on the bench tonight. I get why Ralf wants to keep him. We can't afford to let him going before bringing in a replacement.
Klaassen was also from Ajax btw, El Ghazi as well, as were a myriad of bang average footballer who wouldn't make it the championship
I agree wih your Scotty criticism but if the criterium was technical ability we'd play Pogba, Matic and Fred (yes, that short Brazilian) over VDB.
He's from Ajax, so he must have good technique
Klaassen was also from Ajax btw, El Ghazi as well, as were a myriad of bang average footballer who wouldn't make it the championship
I agree wih your Scotty criticism but if the criterium was technical ability we'd play Pogba, Matic and Fred (yes, that short Brazilian) over VDB.
What's the point? VDB's never gonna play even if our whole midfield is injured. They'll probably play the U12's before ihm.
He did what Fred normally does, got pressed and gave the ball away
Still had one decent play which resulted in a shot and corner.
Don't know why he didn't came on earlier when 2 of our midfielders were on yellow.
Don't know why he didn't came on earlier when 2 of our midfielders were on yellow.
Cause he is not a deep midfielder and is only partially useful as an attacker.
And Bruno is ?
No, but I would rather have Lingard on in that role than Donny.
Yeah , but Lingard also didn't come on. So, the point still stands.
I don't care if they want McTominay. It's very far from the point. They're two individuals and have to be taken on their own merits (or lack of them)
Why VDB people seem glued to this line of thinking on McTominay I really don't know. It doesn't suddenly make VDB a good footballer if we criticise McTominay. That's now how it works. If anything we should be concerned by the fact that this is the second manager that doesn't think Donny is up to much.
You know there are some weak arguments floating around when the only recourse is to slag off his competition, who a second manager seems to also think is better, or to make up stuff about which clubs would want them. Nobody wants VDB that's for sure, he'll be going to a lower club, because that's all his stint at United has justified.
Maybe.
I am just done with the sympathy for the guy. That is your competition and you can't convince various managers and coaching teams you are a better option? Really? Total flop.
Point is - Madrid thought Donny was good enough for them. They wouldn't think McT is not good enough for their bench, let alone as a starter. That should tell you something.
Umm, yes, McT and Fred, and Matic, for that matter are absolutely integral to the discussion. Because they are the ones supposedly keeping Donny on the bench based on performances. Obviously Donny isn't replacing prime Paul Scholes here or anything, he's replacing Fred or McT, so their football abilities matter to the discussion.
That second manager argument you're continuing to spout isn't exactly doing rosy or nothing. So what merit does the "second manager" have that will be useful? Nothing. If Ralf actually achieves something here, then you can bring that argument back, but that's a discussion for another time. And that's a big IF, because the way shit is going, we're playing no different than when we did with Ole. All down to the subs and everything.
It tells me Madrid were interested in VDB once upon a time. Great. Wonderful. It doesn't do anything for me because ultimately he has been a flop. We can't go back to Ajax and ask for a refund just because Madrid were also interested. This is the type of useless fluff VDB admirers get excited by because there's nothing else.
The same applies to McTominay, I don't care who would want him, I care about what he's shown and that is generally not good enough, although occasionally he has performed and managers so far prefer him. That is the fact separated from the narrative, which seems to be a troublesome thing for people that dramatise VDBs situation.
The competition matter if the agenda is this fantastical VDB storyline and getting him into the side. The other option is not to really care whether VDB is in the side because there's no reason to. We've got a manager that is supposedly competent, that's enough for me unless there is reason for me to delve into the narrative that VDB is hard done by.
Now, if I'd have seen these supposed games VDB has been wondrous in that would be a reason to. But what is the motivation for me to do so except this tenuous hope, this belief that because we're struggling and he's not had a long run that he's the answer. You are quite happy to call a spade a spade with reference to RRs start at the club, but when the same is applied to VDB the truth is that he's simply been crap. Crap in games, crap in terms of earning a spot, and ultimately a crap signing.
Guy should do himself a favour and hand in a transfer request and get out...he's literally wasting his time.
Is any worse than Fred, matic, mct as a deep midfielder
There is absolutely zero point in him remaining at the club. We would be better of recalling garner
He's only a flop because we're not playing him, not because he has failed to justify his price via performances... like say... Fred...
I mean, VDB has performed the few minutes he's gotten this season, too. But unlike McTominay he doesn't get to start after he performs. See the difference?
Supposedly, not supposedly, the fact of the matter is that this "competent" manager is not doing too well, is he? Just like our previous one. So your argument is totally moot when two managers that have failed to give Donny minutes are failing. If it was the other way around, and if Rangnick actually made something out of Matic, or Fred, or McT nobody here will give a rats ass about Donny or whoever. But the fact is we're still suffering from the same old problems that we did under Ole.
First off, because Donny has earned his right to get a few matches based on his performances this season. Second of all, because quite clearly a midfield of Fred/McT or Matic isn't working whatsoever. So why not try something else? Maybe it'll fail, but we're already failing now regardless. So what's there to lose? Or is your idea of good management is to just let the ship sink without doing anything? "Oh well, McFred are useless but Donny couldn't be any better so let's just die". That's a defeatist mentality. I rather this team go down fighting with a roar than with a murmur. If that means to play the fecking kids, you play them, I don't care. Obviously something needs to change in this squad and the midfield is our most glaring weakness. Villa passed us around like they were prime Barcelona. And it's not only Villa, United make every other team like that, too.
You don't want us to have backups on the bench? Are you a Donny fan or a United fan?
I mean it's kind of relevant because that's who they're advocating to replace.
Its like someone thinking Lindelof should replace Maguire and then responding with: Lindelof's no Virgil Van Dyke! These are the type of arguments made by those who just backed whatever decision the manager was making (read: Ole playing his favorites). Ive heard it about Dalot, Telles, Lindelof, Bailly Matic and they're nowhere near the calamities people have made them out to be.
Yes, they both aren't Kante. Trust me, it hasn't gone unnoticed.
I want us to have a backup who can actually be trusted to be a backup and play games of football.
Is pointless him being here if we don't trust him to start games...a good backup should be able to start a game.
Like I said we'd be thin if we let him go without replacing. He was the only available midfielder on the bench today.
Someone's gotta be dead last in the pecking order.
Btw he is trusted to play as a no 10, in Bruno's position. But why randomly bench Bruno? CM is considered to be his second position where he can do a job if needed.
And what Sviken said is nonsense.
If Matic or Fred would have gone down he'd have come on, not Svidersky or Savage (weren't on the bench).
All the DVB fans need to let it go. It ain’t happening, he’s not good enough
He's slow as arseholes but that chance he created for himself at the end was nice. I really don't get why he can never get brought on before the 80somethingth minute. Regardless of whether he's good enough for us long term, if we need him around then we need to give him opportunities to get sharp and feel involved.
No, he's a flop (to date) because that describes an outcome that matches his time at the club. We can go into excuses or "reasons" which I'm sure is the correct terminology within the VDB pity society but all the arguments are circular.
The argument isn't moot at all. Mainly because the interim manager has only been here a month or two so it is too early to write him off as lacking judgment. It also flies in the face of logic to believe that a new manager with a fresh take has come in and ignored the plight of this player that excels every day. How much smoke do you need to understand that there may be a fire with this player?
Donny hasn't earnt anything. In your eyes maybe, not in the opinion of many others including the man that actually matters.
My idea isn't to let the ship sink but it's also not to get attached to players for no reason, I care about the right decision not the VDB story. If McTominay and Fred are shit but I know that VDB is worse from my vantage point as manager then no I don't just throw him in. I don't just throw shit at the wall. I presume the manager will be trying to analyse what is going wrong, where the solutions lie in a pragmatic and reasoned way. Throwing in a raft of academy graduates or anybody who isn't currently getting a game is the preserve of forum dwellers not a football manager at the top of the game.
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2 years of his footballing career down the drain because he joined this shit show of a club. Just left him leave FFS
The "He's no van Dijk" argument is about as valid as thinking that there should be a next cab off the rank policy that says if McFred underperform then VDB is required to come in. Neither makes any sense.
In an ideal world your backup midfielder should be trusted to come in, but in a meritocracy he should also be expected to prove that he should come in through his endeavours at the club. If those things don't happen then a player doesn't play, it shouldn't be about defaulting upon a choice. How does a manager build stuff with randomness like that? He has to analyse, not alight upon things.
This is where we get to these circular arguments with VDB because ultimately he's not had much game time to display his worth So the question becomes why, and to what extent do we accept we do not have complete information?
That's the real problem, because we're doing poorly it becomes very emotive and people cannot accept we do lack information about why managers don't play him and then these weird narratives are produced to fill that void. People claiming he has been good contrary to all sense. People refusing to accept the totality of his minutes over the seasons have been poor for United. The being held hostage concept that seems to stir up sentiment that he must play but is ridiculously dramatic and actually close to embarrassing.
So that's what we've got, a lot of sentiment over reality when the reality is pretty boring: we have an average performing player that doesn't get picked. We have some pretty average performing players that are getting picked too. I think we can all agree to hope for better.
Genuine question.
instead of blaming everyone else could it be that DVB just ain’t a good footballer?
Today he collected the ball after being on for all of 2 mins and tried to sprint by a Aston Villa player and looked like he had lead in his boots!!
I actually think the guy is a fraud and the sooner we send him packing the better, but what worries me is that there is United fans that cheer when he come on..
instead of blaming everyone else could it be that DVB just ain’t a good footballer?
Today he collected the ball after being on for all of 2 mins and tried to sprint by a Aston Villa player and looked like he had lead in his boots!!
I actually think the guy is a fraud and the sooner we send him packing the better, but what worries me is that there is United fans that cheer when he come on..
I think calling him a fraud is unfair, he is what he is.. But the idea of a Matic + DVB midfield when everyone wanted to yank Fred, that's a horrifying thought.
What would you call him??
40 million spent on a player that gets 2 mins here and there and can’t run
Instead of judging a player on the few minutes he has had, could it just be that he's actually a good footballer that won't get a chance due to some weird reasons?
If you've ever watched him play for Ajax or the Dutch national team, you'd know he is a good footballer. But even good footballers look "bad" when misused. Your comment about the sprint is a perfect example for that. He is not a player suited for the kick and rush tactics we've had for a while now. But the thing is United should be a team that dominates every other team, not one that has to rely on counters. So having him on the pitch with him having to sprint in counterattacks is not using him correctly. We should be dominating the midfielder, not getting overrun and booting the ball forwards. VDB is the player we should use to get midfield control and pass our way forwards
I thought VDB looked slightly better than McTominay whenever he played in the pivot. He had that blunder under Ralf (against YB?), but the one that happened in the carabao cup was down to Telles and Matic.
So noone is saying, McTominay is shit, pull up the next guy in line regardless of how they compare.
My point is I'd rather see him start over McTominay, based on what he has shown whenever he has played in the same position. They're not far apart in terms of ability, so it's not a big deal.
I've been saying for a while Matic + Fred is our best midfield. But Matic can only play 60 minutes. I hope Ralf reads my instructions more carefully next time.
He is a really good footballer. It's just that he's a really good footballer in a role where you are stacked with better ones
The "Beek is shit", he isn't starting comments are silly.
He's clearly viewed as an attacking midfielder which he is.
If Bruno is the bar, there's a lot of shit footballers in top level football.
He's clearly viewed as an attacking midfielder which he is.
If Bruno is the bar, there's a lot of shit footballers in top level football.
Just let the guy leave.Jeez.
What's the point of a backup if it never gets used? Sit there and collect dust (and wages)? There's no point in Donny being our club mascot. You either play or sell him Doubt he's very content with the role he has now and one thing we should learn from Pep - if a player wants to leave, you let him go, no matter how valuable he is. Just put one of the kids in his place
I beg to differ here. If you buy a Challenger and never use it, is the car to blame for not having miles or are you? Being a "flop" would imply that he has not performed well and thus was promptly sold. But how is the lad supposed to perform were he never gets to play?
In the same vein, it's too early to say that the new manager might not fancy Donny. That same interim manager you keep using as your argument constantly says how well Donny performs in training. So explain to me the reasoning why he is not starting? And a manager who I very much rate more than our current one, rates Donny very highly and he was an integral part in his Ajax team that would destroy our team no problem. When you talk about managers, why are you not accounting for Ten Hag's opinion who rates Donny very highly?
And this is the reason why I gave the example with Vinicius. Zidane didn't care much about him, Ancelotti entrusted him. You would have probably said the same thing against Vinicius that you are saying against Donny. The result is that now Vinicius is now one of the most exciting young prospects in the world.
All I know is that this team is suffering greatly when it comes to the midfield. Every match it gets bypassed by the most average of players and teams. We have a player who has put in decent performances this season and has given us in those games what RR likes to talk about "control", yet we don't utilize him? Forget that, we don't even give him a chance to prove if he is capable or not. He just rots on the bench. He isn't even used as an option when Fred or McT, for example, are tired. Even when they get injured or red carded, Matic is the choice for replacement despite the fact that an 80 years old grandma can probably pass Matic by. That's horrible man management and you cannot convince me that Donny would somehow be worse. And even if we somehow pretend he would be, it is still worth giving it a chance and seeing rather than continue with the same ol' same ol' were we make teams like Norwich look like prime Barcelona.
I couldn't care less about Donny as a person. All I care about is the betterment of the club and team. And right now I see Donny as an option to improve the team that is not being utilized. As I've already told you, neither I or anyone here will complain about Donny if we had an actual working midfield, but we don't. We're absolute dogshit in that area. Worse than bottom relegation teams. So it's time for something to change. The hell do you get this "VDB is worse" shit anyway? You're acting like Rangick and Ole are infallible when they are anything but. Ole got rightly sacked (much too late, btw) and it doesn't appear Rangnick would get an important consultancy role at the end of the season if results continue. As far as playing kids and what not, sometimes it's for the best. Do you need reminding in the history of this football club?
Ideally yes, do you understand the concept of a back up? He should only come in when there's injuries/suspensions. And he actually does come in when Bruno isn't available. The thing is, Bruno is rarely injured. He's dead last in the pecking order when it comes to the 2 CM positions. Regardless of what you think of McFred or Matic, VDB isn't a very good defensive midfielder either, so why is it a problem the gaffer rates the others above him in that situation?
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