Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch

redNATION said:
He’s scored less than Hjolund who’s been pretty poor (and also injured) this season.
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He hasn't played as a striker all season. His stats as a striker are 6 goals and 5 assists in 9 games.

Not saying he's a great player still, I'm not confident in him as the striker for the national team but given we don't have any world class ones he'd probably the best of the lot.
 
redNATION said:
He’s scored less than Hjolund who’s been pretty poor (and also injured) this season.
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In the league he scores every 207 Minutes, Hjolund every 257. But you can’t compare these players anyways. Havertz is not a clear striker, but also, he gets more opportunities than Hjolund
 
Kai has not been prolific by any means, but he has done ok overall. I like his movement and seems to be popping up in a lot of good spaces. It is probably what he does best.

Havertz has also not played upfront the whole season. Not sure of the ratio but it's probably closer to 50/50 so we shouldn't compare his stats exclusively with a forward. Still 11 PL goals in his first season is decent. I would like to see that grow to 15...not sure if he has 20 in him. His finishing isn't great.

We could definitely upgrade though, maybe an Isaac would bring a bit more.
 
Yes, two goals against Chelsea has really proven his doubters wrong. Shame he was injured for the Bayern and Villa games.
 
Fails to do anything in two games vs. Bayern and in the loss to Aston Villa, but manages to pad his stats a bit against a hapless Chelsea side with his team already up 2-0.
 
GoonerBear said:
Has he?
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I think he might be on par if you look at CL goals. He has also played in midfield a lot too though.

Both Hojlund and Havertz commanded very large transfer fees and it is still unclear to me if either was worth it. Not flops though.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Fails to do anything in two games vs. Bayern and in the loss to Aston Villa, but manages to pad his stats a bit against a hapless Chelsea side with his team already up 2-0.
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Luckily for us, there are more than three games in a season.
 
How on earth is anyone still clinging to the idea he’s a bad signing?

What should £65m get you if it isn’t a transformative and adaptive player that plays a variety of options and is always fit.

He’s been incredible value for money. Plenty of top teams have paid more and got far less in return.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
How on earth is anyone still clinging to the idea he’s a bad signing?

What should £65m get you if it isn’t a transformative and adaptive player that plays a variety of options and is always fit.

He’s been incredible value for money. Plenty of top teams have paid more and got far less in return.
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I wouldn't say adaptive is a good trait if they're not very good in that position? He's been much better when he's just played as a CF. The CM experiment hasn't worked.

Transfermarkt has it as 6 goals as the AM/CM (31 games) and 6 goals and 5 assists as the CF (14 games).

11 of those contributions are in the last 10 league games too so a bit of a purple patch.
 
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The Corinthian said:
Yes, two goals against Chelsea has really proven his doubters wrong. Shame he was injured for the Bayern and Villa games.
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More interestingly he actually played pretty poorly outside the goals, squandering multiple good opportunities. The BDL never miss a chance to wank over one of their own though.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
How on earth is anyone still clinging to the idea he’s a bad signing?

What should £65m get you if it isn’t a transformative and adaptive player that plays a variety of options and is always fit.

He’s been incredible value for money. Plenty of top teams have paid more and got far less in return.
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Maybe if you started watching Arsenal yesterday, yeah.
 
AltiUn said:
Maybe if you started watching Arsenal yesterday, yeah.
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For my sins, I’ve watched every televised Arsenal league game this season as my girlfriend is a Gooner. He’s been great for the vast majority of the season. Settled quickly, the Rice-Odegaard-Havertz set up worked far better than anyone is giving it credit for.

Injuries to Timber and whatever the hell has gone on with Partey has massively influenced how well he could be implemented in the right system, but he still looked great. People are pretending that he was stinking the place up. He was solid and reliable, if not spectacular.

£65m is not a whole lot of money. It’s really weird to suggest it’s not been money well spent. He’s somehow the only player that’s ever been criticised for putting in his best performances at the tail end of a season, under more pressure, with less rest.

Of all players going for £65m or more, perhaps only Rice and Van Dijk have been better value in PL history.
 
I have to admit I am wrong about him. I said he is a very expensive transfer but he have proved his value. He is so fit and available to be pick the entire season.
 
happy to have him. Will be interesting to see where he plays next season if Arsenal do buy a CF and MF like has been rumored. Will he still be a starter because Arteta seems to absolutely love him? Or will he be a super versatile bench performer?
 
He took his goals really well. I don’t understand why anyone would want to harp on about his performance when he scored two really good well taken goals. People love to say things like ‘well it was only against this shit team or that shit team’ or ‘well he played really average without the goal(s) when a player they don’t rate or like scores goals.

So far it’s looking like a good transfer for Arsenal and Havertz. A rare case of a deal that suited all parties.
 
Gene Loblaw said:
happy to have him. Will be interesting to see where he plays next season if Arsenal do buy a CF and MF like has been rumored. Will he still be a starter because Arteta seems to absolutely love him? Or will he be a super versatile bench performer?
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We've been linked with the likes of Benjamin Sesko and Joshua Zirkzee, so I can imagine there being a fair fight between Havertz and a CF signing.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
He's always been a bit of a streaky player though, hasn't he?
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For us, he was definitely mr purple patch but I’m noticing slightly better consistency levels this season than he showed for us. We’ll see if he improves further on that front next season and the years to come. Arteta might just be the best manager he’s had in his career so far.
 
Bobski said:
People vastly overrate state the importance of getting an out and out goalscorer as a number 9. Most teams hoping to compete would be better off with an all rounder who helps the other attacking players maximize their output and keeps the attacking play unpredictable.
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No, what we see is that most casual fans overrate the impact of the Firmino players.

"Oh he's a shit scorer in an amazing team, he must be doing something sophisticated"

180 from the days when we didn't make Kuyt out to be this genius for whom scoring was beneath, and players like Rooney were special because they did it all, including scoring, AND facilitating play for wide forwards and making the attack better

Havertz? Has had a good second half season. Will definitely need to produce more in the F9 position.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Of all players going for £65m or more, perhaps only Rice and Van Dijk have been better value in PL history.
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Interesting comment, got me thinking and had to look up Transfermarkt. Havertz is the 25th most expensive transfer in PL going to Arsenal for €75mil.
The (incoming) transfers more expensive than him are (Euros):
Enzo to Chelsea 121mil
Grealish to City 117mil
Rice to Arsenal, Caceido to Chelsea 116mil
Lukaku to Chelsea 113mil
Pogba to United 105mil
Antony to United 95mil
Gvardiol to City 90mil
Maguire to United 87mil
Nunez to Liverpool, Sancho to United 85mil
Lukaku to United, VVD to Liverpool 84mil
Fofana, Havertz and Arrizabalaga to Chelsea 80mil, Pepe to Arsenal 80mil
De Bruyne to City 76mil

You're right that Havertz has probably proved better value than all except Rice, Gvardiol, VVD and of course De Bruyne. Maybe Nunez?

I believe Arteta will only develop him further. He wants to turn him into some CF/AM hybrid monster. No doubt he's better in CF position but if he can do a reasonable job in midfield when needed against most teams, he would be a bargain. One thing I underestimated from him is his stamina. Similar to Odegaard, he just runs and runs. Can see why Arteta wants him in midfield.
 
WeePat said:
For us, he was definitely mr purple patch but I’m noticing slightly better consistency levels this season than he showed for us. We’ll see if he improves further on that front next season and the years to come. Arteta might just be the best manager he’s had in his career so far.
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Arteta is shaping up to be quite the talent identifier and developer. What he's done to Gabriel and Ben White for example, I couldn't have foreseen when they came. White in particular - everyone scoffed at the £50mil fee but my God how well he's turned him from a good CB into one of the best RB in the league. Right up there with Trent and Walker. Very consistent too.

adexkola said:
v
Havertz? Has had a good second half season. Will definitely need to produce more in the F9 position.
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He played the first half of the season in midfield and he needed more time than anticipated to settle. It's only this year he's played CF consistently, and even then Arteta has rotated him in midfield here and there (eg when Jesus has played CF). I'm convinced Arteta still has plans to use him in midfield quite often as he's an intelligent and versatile player. His link-up play is much better now than it was when he first came, though I still think we need a proper LCM, unless we get a good replacement for Partey/Jorginho and Havertz and Rice can alternate as the 8.
 
GoonerGirly said:
Interesting comment, got me thinking and had to look up Transfermarkt. Havertz is the 25th most expensive transfer in PL going to Arsenal for €75mil.
The (incoming) transfers more expensive than him are (Euros):
Enzo to Chelsea 121mil
Grealish to City 117mil
Rice to Arsenal, Caceido to Chelsea 116mil
Lukaku to Chelsea 113mil
Pogba to United 105mil
Antony to United 95mil
Gvardiol to City 90mil
Maguire to United 87mil
Nunez to Liverpool, Sancho to United 85mil
Lukaku to United, VVD to Liverpool 84mil
Fofana, Havertz and Arrizabalaga to Chelsea 80mil, Pepe to Arsenal 80mil
De Bruyne to City 76mil

You're right that Havertz has probably proved better value than all except Rice, Gvardiol, VVD and of course De Bruyne. Maybe Nunez?

I believe Arteta will only develop him further. He wants to turn him into some CF/AM hybrid monster. No doubt he's better in CF position but if he can do a reasonable job in midfield when needed against most teams, he would be a bargain. One thing I underestimated from him is his stamina. Similar to Odegaard, he just runs and runs. Can see why Arteta wants him in midfield.
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Gvardiol is a questionable shout. I’ve not seen enough of him but he cost €90m and that’s oodles.

Obviously I missed KdB when I glanced through. In my head he only cost them €50m.

Havertz has been a great signing even if he doesn’t score another goal this season. It’s hard to land at a new club and hit the ground running. He’s had his best year in the league at a brand new club, playing three different positions.

Had people not carried the Chelsea critique forward, they’d get out of their own way and judge him neutrally.

Arsenals summer activity was magnificent tbf. Rice, Havertz, Raya, plus Timber. The last of which would have provided competition/cover for all four defensive positions had he been available. Ton of money, but none of it wasted.
 
GoonerGirly said:
Arteta is shaping up to be quite the talent identifier and developer. What he's done to Gabriel and Ben White for example, I couldn't have foreseen when they came. White in particular - everyone scoffed at the £50mil fee but my God how well he's turned him from a good CB into one of the best RB in the league. Right up there with Trent and Walker. Very consistent too.


He played the first half of the season in midfield and he needed more time than anticipated to settle. It's only this year he's played CF consistently, and even then Arteta has rotated him in midfield here and there (eg when Jesus has played CF). I'm convinced Arteta still has plans to use him in midfield quite often as he's an intelligent and versatile player. His link-up play is much better now than it was when he first came, though I still think we need a proper LCM, unless we get a good replacement for Partey/Jorginho and Havertz and Rice can alternate as the 8.
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I actually rated his shift in midfield. Very intelligent player, has the physicality needed as well. Always nice to have the versatility in midfield.

However if he's going to play at the 9 he needs more than indirectly "making his teammates better"; you have Jesus for that already. Last few games says he has the goal threat, can he do it over a season though
 
adexkola said:
I actually rated his shift in midfield. Very intelligent player, has the physicality needed as well. Always nice to have the versatility in midfield.

However if he's going to play at the 9 he needs more than indirectly "making his teammates better"; you have Jesus for that already. Last few games says he has the goal threat, can he do it over a season though
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He is not a striker and he may never develop that killer instinct as a #9. He is not clinical either. Just accept what he is as a football player, just like Jesus.
 
adexkola said:
I actually rated his shift in midfield. Very intelligent player, has the physicality needed as well. Always nice to have the versatility in midfield.

However if he's going to play at the 9 he needs more than indirectly "making his teammates better"; you have Jesus for that already. Last few games says he has the goal threat, can he do it over a season though
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Yeh in midfield I think he'll do well enough against most teams but against the better teams we need a proper midfielder in there.
If Arteta continues to move him about, it'll be hard to judge him on his goals/assists alone like we tend to do with strikers. Guess it'll depend on what Arsenal do in the summer - do we move for a proper 9 or prioritise a CM (probably to replace Partey/Jorginho)?
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
He is not a striker and he may never develop that killer instinct as a #9. He is not clinical either. Just accept what he is as a football player, just like Jesus.
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That's fine

However you'll need way more of a consistent scoring threat from Saka and Martinelli/Trossard on either wing. Feels like Saka has gone cold in front of goal (may be wrong)
 
The difference between playing for Arsenal and United is pressed home here. If you look at Havertz at the start of the season, everyone was slating him. Waste of Money, etc, and was regularly turning up in peoples lists of flop XI's. At United there is no comeback from that, you get tarred with that and it's there for your career, but at Arsenal he's been able to get his head down and go under the radar a bit and is now showing some good form. You don't get that opportunity at United these days. Just look at Antony. Every touch or misplaced pass is seized upon and used as a stick to beat him with.
 
adexkola said:
That's fine

However you'll need way more of a consistent scoring threat from Saka and Martinelli/Trossard on either wing. Feels like Saka has gone cold in front of goal (may be wrong)
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We're the top scorers in the league (82 goals), albeit Liverpool have a game in hand and City have 2. We are doing a great job of sharing the goals around. Saka is our top scorer (14 goals) followed by Havertz (11) then Trossard (10). I agree Saka's form has dipped slightly but he's been run into the ground and I think he's carrying a knock.
 
Big Andy said:
The difference between playing for Arsenal and United is pressed home here. If you look at Havertz at the start of the season, everyone was slating him. Waste of Money, etc, and was regularly turning up in peoples lists of flop XI's. At United there is no comeback from that, you get tarred with that and it's there for your career, but at Arsenal he's been able to get his head down and go under the radar a bit and is now showing some good form. You don't get that opportunity at United these days. Just look at Antony. Every touch or misplaced pass is seized upon and used as a stick to beat him with.
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I think it's because even if Havertz took some time to get going, he never looked like a liability. Arsenal are in a title race and had a good CL campaign (considering absence from competition in 7 years). United are flailing in 7th, have negative goal difference and very nearly bottled it against a Championship side currently in 8th. And really, Antony has shown very little talent-wise to justify his price tag at his 2 seasons at United.
 
GoonerGirly said:
Arteta is shaping up to be quite the talent identifier and developer. What he's done to Gabriel and Ben White for example, I couldn't have foreseen when they came. ....
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I personally have never understood why Arsenal fans have NEVER appreciated Gabriel's ability since this season andare attributing his form to Arteta. Yet for my money he has been Arsenal's best and one of the best cbs in the league since he arrived. Especially when Arsenal were a struggling side. Frankly under Arteta having a competent partner in Saliba has just been making how good he is more noticable.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I personally have never understood why Arsenal fans have NEVER appreciated Gabriel's ability since this season andare attributing his form to Arteta. Yet for my money he has been Arsenal's best and one of the best cbs in the league since he arrived. Especially when Arsenal were a struggling side. Frankly under Arteta having a competent partner in Saliba has just been making how good he is more noticable.
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Gabriel was very raw when he first came. You could see the physical attributes and aggression that Arteta wanted (especially considering our CBs at the time who were physically poor), but he had a rashness about him too. Was also a bit error prone. All probably understandable for a 22 year old defender. He's cut most of that out of his game and him and Saliba complement each other very well. I think of them like fire and ice, it's such a perfect partnership.
 
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