Three seasons, three managers and two owners in less than three seasons as it stands.
I honestly don't know his best position though, is it false nine, out wide attacker or a ten?
Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran discuss a horrific month of December and a depressing FOUR defeats in a row - the latest coming against Wolves and Newcastle.
They discuss how much blame is on Ruben Amorim and rank our squad against other Premier League teams.
Do we have any chance of avoiding defeat at Anfield?
I honestly don't know his best position though, is it false nine, out wide attacker or a ten?
He will do better away from the Prem. He looks so much better in European matches because you can’t just run into a player with all your weight, knock them a yard off the ball, and have it called a 50/50 challenge.
In PL games he spends half the time hunched over at the waist, bracing his legs for leverage… not standing upright and looking for the next pass.
When fans of other leagues see people say “but is he suited to the Prem?” They think it’s a knock on their league… but it really isnt. It’s more an indictment of certain facets of play in the PL.
You are allowed to play the man more than the ball, positionally, in the PL. The sleight players who have overcome that here have generally been able to do so with quickness. Kai isn’t very quick, and he’s an upright target to get bodied.
He will move on to a different league and look a phenom at some position. People will mock us, but it’s the best thing for Kai, and not really a function of Chelsea at all.
In PL games he spends half the time hunched over at the waist, bracing his legs for leverage… not standing upright and looking for the next pass.
When fans of other leagues see people say “but is he suited to the Prem?” They think it’s a knock on their league… but it really isnt. It’s more an indictment of certain facets of play in the PL.
You are allowed to play the man more than the ball, positionally, in the PL. The sleight players who have overcome that here have generally been able to do so with quickness. Kai isn’t very quick, and he’s an upright target to get bodied.
He will move on to a different league and look a phenom at some position. People will mock us, but it’s the best thing for Kai, and not really a function of Chelsea at all.
It's true there hasn't been enough stability at the club in the time Havertz has been here but even so that's still just an excuse and there are plenty of other players who haven't struggled that bad. Even Joao Felix who only arrived less than two months ago looks a lot more comfortable in the side than Havertz after almost three years. When Felix came in, the team were struggling worse than at any other time in the last 20-25 years.
The main problem for Havertz is inconsistency. Every once in a while he comes up with a great performance like he did last night but more often than not that one great game has been followed by 5-10 mediocre or terrible ones and that's simply not been good enough.
Ideally I'd see him for one more season and think about selling in 2024 if he still doesn't look any better / more consistent but the contract situation being what it is, I feel the club have to keep all options open and look to move him on if there's a market abroad for him (ie. Bayern) in the coming summer at a decent value.
Seeing things out till 2024 would leave the club in an awkward position because by then he'd only have one year left on his contract. Even if he was finally a success in 2023/24 there's no guarantees he'd extend if someone like Bayern came in for him, but if he's still as inconsistent as he's been up until now his market value would already have plummeted due to the contract running down and having had one more bad year of football. All in all it's a problematic situation.
We'll also have Nkunku coming in who plays similar roles as Havertz does so will we try to fit them together or is Nkunku a replacement for Kai?
But Felix playes basically on his preferred position with loads of freedom (+ he eventually is extra motivated because of Simeone). Havertz role is a new one for him still - I agree withthe poster above who said that the physical part of playing striker in the prem is likely not his style and he‘d look much better in a different league (or on a different position).
In theory Nkunku - Havertz I can see functioning quite well. Very flexible movement and less predictable but needs to gel first which is the hard part. If they sign Felix + Nkunku, what looks like madness but everything‘s possible with Clearlake seemingly, I can‘t see Kai staying at the bridge.
He is quoted recently as saying he prefers playing as a 9. His skill set is more of a 10. Not to say that he can’t play as a 9 but he needs to adapt his game better - he needs to improve the timing of his runs and his football intelligence because he likes to be caught offside far too much.
That's interesting as I don't see him as a goal scorer
Reckon he is one of those forward players that really accelerates his scoring once he hits 25/26.
That makes two of us. It’s not natural to him. While he is definitely capable of providing goals across the season I just don’t see them being vital goals that your star forward will provide.
Do you think he’ll still be at the club next season?
He has decided a CL final and a Club World Cup final, it doesn't get much more vital than that (granted the latter was a penalty but so what, it was a crucial one in a high pressure situation). So contrary to your opinion I think that he can deliver in crucial moments, but he justdoesn't get the numbers over a whole season that a center forward should deliver.
It's hard to see him moving this summer, no matter the rumors. He is being selected every match by Potter right now and won't want to take a clear step down from Chelsea. But its hard to see a good fit at any other big club. I don't believe for a second that Bayern would want him as their next 9 to build around and they already have Musiala and Muller behind the striker.
It seems highly likely that he'll be there next year and will only leave if he goes a season where he is truly getting frozen out and pushed out the door.
It seems highly likely that he'll be there next year and will only leave if he goes a season where he is truly getting frozen out and pushed out the door.
Ok let me clarify myself as clearly I wasn’t being specific enough. He isn’t consistent enough to win us games. You can reference a few games if you like but 3 years of data backs up my opinion.
In reference to the CL final, Werner and Mount made that goal, he did well to finish it and I love him for it but beyond the finish he didnt do a lot. Given a choice between Werner and Havertz I’d have kept Werner without a doubt. Since he was forced out by Tuchel our chances have dropped dramatically.
Ah yes, when you meant the lack of consistency than we totally agree (because his lack of it results in him not getting the numbers as I phrased it).
Setting the stage for Lukaku's return perhaps?
@donkeychoker in shambles!
Did they let him near the cooling packs again?
I thought this was about his younger brother in the Chelsea academy.
This. TIL Kai is short for Donkey.
Just a misspelling, he certainly wanted to say Don Kai Havertz
I saw the title and wondered what has he done now... this is one of the better options, really
I must say, I’m with Don Kai when it comes to these animals…FYI
But isn't a lot of this a function of the fact you keep playing him as a central striker? It's part of the job description that you have to shield, jockey with defenders, or at least make penetrating runs.
If he's not strong, can't position his body to deal with duels and isn't fast enough to get away then it just begs the question of why a square peg is in a round hole so often and why he is mismanaged. That's not necessarily a PL thing, that's just fecking things up as a club having spent a king's ransom on the guy.
Personally I think there may be a player there but it's strange to me he appears as a striker so often. When I see him lining up there against us I'm quite happy because that's not a threat to a CB. It's perfect for them. Get him running onto the ball from a midfield or advanced midfield position and it's a different game, he's got the height to threaten in the box, he can score, he'll have more space. Weren't they comparing him to Ballack at some point? Maybe that's kind of superficial but it's a lot closer to the point that he could be a goalscoring mid than playing him as some false 9 that basically becomes a conventional striker when you're not dominant and someone has to be a focal point.
Chelsea are often playing with wing backs of course so it's kind of tricky but for me he would be a really good third midfielder. His pressing, tackling etc is really good so defensively I would not be worried, technically he's good, he's got a great frame for a midfielder with a long stride. Surprised nobody has tried a deeper role for him.
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I like him so much more after reading that story.
“When I was younger, even though I had a big brother, my parents would give me the house key donkey every day" - Kai Havertz
I'm more of a Goat man myself, but Donkeys are alright
Problem might be that he is not fast enough to act as a winger - and not creative enough (and does not have that defensive sense) for a no. 10 or 8 role - atleast not enough for top clubs.
There is not many top clubs that work with no. 10s at top clubs anyways. De Bruyne has a high workrate but is really creative. Bruno Fernandes has creativity (I cannot tell much more about him as I do not watch him that often). Real has 2 8s, Liverpool works without a no. 10. Bayern sometimes has 2 no. 10s but both Musiala and Müller have a high workrate and Müller survived the trend because of his whole package.
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Shaming him for liking donkeys is peak caf
I agree he's not a winger, but he's plenty creative and is very good defensively:
He's always been better in a fluid second striker role - for all his wayward finishing, Werner was a good partner because he'd stretch defenses and create space between the lines for Havertz. Moving him deeper to the inside forward role alongside Felix behind a fast guy who goes vroom has definitely improved our attack and Havertz's performances, for what it's worth.
How do you understand creativity? His assist record really is not great.
And to what players is he compared?
Problem is that the no. 10 position is a very rare position in top clubs. So you have to be extremely good to work in such a position! Top clubs usually do not work with a second striker either...
And to what players is he compared?
Problem is that the no. 10 position is a very rare position in top clubs. So you have to be extremely good to work in such a position! Top clubs usually do not work with a second striker either...
Well, I'd look at expected assists since that takes the shitty finishing of his teammates out of it! Also key passes (e.g. passes that lead directly to a shot), progressive passing, passing into the area - all very decent. This is from fbref.com - so it's percentile ranks against all forwards.
I agree that it might be tricky to find an ideal fit for him though! He's definitely between positions - and honestly I think part of why he's struggled at Chelsea at least is that he's been used all over the place because of his versatility.
The underlying numbers are very good on his physical output, tackling, intercepting. That's a starting point, it's not like he's an attacker that has no work ethic or team sense. Personally I think he could make a decent 8, or like Bruno does at times, somewhere between an 8 and a 10. He wouldn't be asked to protect the defence, he'd have license. He only has to be able to contribute defensively in that role, it's not his primary responsibility to sit in front of CBs and you can pick up and learn how to position yourself with a top manager (which I'm not sure Potter is, but hypothetically).
Everyone that has ever changed position has some doubts around their attributes until they do it. Just trying to think of a way to use his skills. Because I see a guy that's technically good, tall to win headers which is good for long balls kicked up the pitch, covers a lot of ground, has an eye for goal which is good for a midfielder but you expect more ruthless play for a forward. But he's not at all dynamic or problematic to defenders and all the top sides have that in attacking positions. Maybe if he went back to Germany he would be again, but I'm thinking of how he can excel elsewhere.
Put it this way I think he's a lot more likely to learn defensive sense which can totally be trained on the training ground than suddenly become quick and strong or start finishing chances on the regular. I was interested to read that one of his old coaches at Leverkusen believed he would be a 8/10 as I was curious how they used him. Tuchel had a different idea.
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He already played as an 8 for us back in the day. It was actually his most common position when he left, only having been deployed as a false 9 for a couple of months out of necessity. It was also his position in his most prolific season scoring wise (17 goals). I have the feeling Chelsea simply hasn't really deployed him correctly. He had a great phase under Tuchel last season and I believe in principal, he was a very good coach for Havertz. Tuchel's emphasis on possession favors him but at Chelsea, Tuchel didn't really go all in on that style.
That being said, Havertz played amazingly well vs. Dortmund, IMO. That was a world class performance and it occurred as a 9. He also had some very good games for Germany there. In general I feel he's a bit underrated since currently he doesn't get on the scoring board as much as expected when he signed but it seems to me as if he's usually well integrated in the chance creation and build up play which is already very important but doesn't get you the headlines.
I'd say in general, he suffers a bit from his unusual skill set. His greatest strength is probably his technique, passing and decision making coupled with great finishing and timing in the box. He distributes the ball very well and links up with one twos quite nicely but he's not a player like Hazard who beats two or three men out of nowhere. He can glide past players but that's not his standout quality and somehow people are expecting that from him. I think Felix is a great addition for him since he usually worked best with other technical players who are comfortable at linking up in tight spaces and play many passes. But I also feel the team needs more goal threat from wide attackers to really work out. Mudryk can become one such player and Sterling in general as well.
Small quibble here - Havertz and Felix were the inside forwards, with Sterling up top as the ostensible striker. Here's Chelsea's heatmap from the second leg:
Aside from that I fully agree - especially with respect to his ability to time runs. Playing him all the way up top limits a lot of his creativity in terms of finding space - which is a big part of why he's looked better since being moved slightly deeper over the last month or so.
Cant wait till we sell him. If we sign Felix and buy a CF and with Nukunu is arriving he doesn't get in this team.
Such a nothing player too.
Such a nothing player too.
Sweet.
Such a goddamn awful player.
Those stats are compared to “forwards” on fbref — strikers. Compare him to attacking midfielders/wingers and the stats are just as poor as the eye test proves
True - but he also hasn't played there consistently enough to make that a valid comparison. Most of his minutes over the last year have come as a 9.