True!
Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran discuss a horrific month of December and a depressing FOUR defeats in a row - the latest coming against Wolves and Newcastle.
They discuss how much blame is on Ruben Amorim and rank our squad against other Premier League teams.
Do we have any chance of avoiding defeat at Anfield?
True!
Clearly a talented player my ass.
People wanting him to play aa a 10 when he cant create. Play as an 8, `already seen it and he doesn't have the work rate or defensive qualities to play there.
People just cant seem to accept he's garbage. H'es rubbish in every position we play him because he has no outstanding attributes.
People wanting him to play aa a 10 when he cant create. Play as an 8, `already seen it and he doesn't have the work rate or defensive qualities to play there.
People just cant seem to accept he's garbage. H'es rubbish in every position we play him because he has no outstanding attributes.
Similar situation to Sancho. Young, play bad with his club and NT, online abused, etc.
Surely it's time to go back to Germany ?
Has scored a few very important goals obviously but overall he is a shadow of the player he was in Germany and his body language, doesnt look happy. Unlike Werner who I thought was way overhyped on here, thought Havertz would be a hit in the premiership, will remain in Chelsea folklore for a couple of his goals but he hasnt been very good for them.
Chelsea seem to be paying a lot of money for young players do ruin there careers lately
Chelsea seem to be paying a lot of money for young players do ruin there careers lately
Yeah I have to admit I was tricked by him. His main problem is he's not creative enough for the "style" he brings. He floats around as a forward, which can work if he was a brilliant passer that could drop off a back line and create chances for runners, but he's terrible at that. He's not a dribbler either, so it really just means he's doing an elegant Van de Beek impersonation of not doing much besides making you forget he's on the pitch.
He isn’t the best but I thought he performed better when Werner played. Werner’s pace and runs created space for him like in the CL final. However he hasn’t really progressed, he may have actually regressed during his time here. I don’t have any ill will towards him but perhaps a fresh start could do both parties a world of good.
Never really seen much in him, I think his style is a bit of a throwback. Shadow striker or a CAM whose main skill is breaking from deep into goalscoring positions and that just isn't in fashion nowadays. Doesn't have that cutting edge or striker's instinct needed to play in the front line.
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Has Havertz really been 'online abused' though? If anything, the Chelsea fan base generally speaking have been a lot kinder to him and more patient with him than most other players because everyone bought into the idea that he's a 'generational talent' that just needs time to click. He's been a bit like Fernando Torres in that matter, no matter how bad it gets many of the fans still seem to like him.
Maybe there's been a slight shift in the majority opinion lately when more and more people have started to realize he isn't actually all that good, but that doesn't seem to have affected his performances because Havertz has been just as terrible all along since signing and that was almost three years ago.
Sometimes young players just don't live up to the hype, not everything has to be about mental health issues.
Yeah, I feel if the same Havertz was playing 10-20 years ago he'd have been much more successful but now he's just an awkward fit whichever position he plays.
Has Havertz really been 'online abused' though? If anything, the Chelsea fan base generally speaking have been a lot kinder to him and more patient with him than most other players because everyone bought into the idea that he's a 'generational talent' that just needs time to click. He's been a bit like Fernando Torres in that matter, no matter how bad it gets many of the fans still seem to like him.
Maybe there's been a slight shift in the majority opinion lately when more and more people have started to realize he isn't actually all that good, but that doesn't seem to have affected his performances because Havertz has been just as terrible all along since signing and that was almost three years ago.
Sometimes young players just don't live up to the hype, not everything has to be about mental health issues.
Yeah, I feel if the same Havertz was playing 10-20 years ago he'd have been much more successful but now he's just an awkward fit whichever position he plays.
Doesn't it also matter for Chelsea fans that while he overall hasn't performed that well, he at least scored some very important goals? "But he decided the CL final" seems to be often included as a point in his favour for example.
I wouldn't necessarily say goals, plural. He's still living off that one goal, which granted was really important and won us the CL.
While he has a couple more goals I would classify as 'very important' (last season one against Liverpool in the league and one against Real Madrid in the CL) I wouldn't necessarily say he has a knack for scoring when it matters when that's all he has got to show for almost three seasons at the club. Most of the goals he's scored have been against bottom table opposition in the league or lower league sides in the cups, and even against them he doesn't score anywhere near often enough.
Right now I would look at his CL decider as similar to Götze clinching the World Cup for Germany even though he wasn't all that great. Havertz will forever be in the club's history for scoring that winning goal against City but that alone can't and shouldn't carry him forever when he's still playing badly almost two years later.
A nothing player. Hate to see it.
I mean we're going in circles here but except for eventually very short periods he was never really played in his ideal position at Chelsea. If I imagine him playing the Müller role at Bayern for example he'd be quite the hit I say. So if he were to leave Chelsea now I would agree with what you'd say about his time there but also thinking that this is what the player Havertz is all about is imho quite wrong (not saying that's what you do but it seems many do going after this thread).
Yeah I was only talking in context of him at Chelsea.
Having watched Havertz for two and a half seasons I still struggle to say what his best position actually is. That role certainly doesn't seem to exist at Chelsea and I don't think he'd be a particularly good fit for any of the other English top clubs either. Maybe Liverpool could have some success with him by using him in a similar role as Firmino in the past but they too are moving away from their 'false 9' model and went for an actual striker in Nunez instead, as did City with Haaland.
Replacing Müller at Bayern is a good shout though and I could see him being a success there but that's about it. Bayern were interested in Havertz before he joined Chelsea but at the time they were skint due to COVID and Müller still had a role to play but now that he's getting older maybe they'd be interested again if we're looking to bin him in the summer.
There's a decent player in there somewhere but it's getting clear he's not going to be that for Chelsea. Three different managers have tried and he's looked just as awkward for all of them so maybe it's best for everyone that he moves away in the summer if we can just find a buyer for him.
I can see him in a midfield three playing the more attacking part for example. I can also see him in the false nine role he inhabits right now but he'd need a much more creative midfield behind him plus good wingers - nothing of this really is happening at Chelsea for quite some time. With both Chilewell and James fit he was actually doing quite ok up front, creating space for others and keeping the ball circulating, but playing slow from the back with no players to dribble past 1-2 players at times, three CBs (now without Rüdiger who was found quite often around the oppo's box) while keeping Havertz playing against deep sitting defenders on small spaces against physically imposing defenders won't cut it. If we're totally honest: his whole time at Chelsea was marked by an extreme volatile approach regarding the attacking structures, formations and of course the personell (among other things like Covid and Abramovic) and that includes the midfield. That's a hard task to play a young player in a foreign league out of position and expect he learns it on the fly. With only two midfielders at Chelsea - all of them not that creative in the last third / around the box (Kova the most but he's a great #8 not #10 imho) it's really not helping.
So yea, bit unfortunate and frustrating his time at Chelsea. Not sure bringing in Felix will solve much regarding all those problems.
I think he should've been developed as a Box to box midfielder with his attributes. A bit like Bellingham - i don't think he's got enough in him to be the creative hub for a team as a 10, but as an 8 he's got a lot of good attributes which would compliment two more specialist midfielders next to him (a creative one, and a more defensive one).
He’s utter wank.
He looks really sad.
Because it has long since sunken in what a horribly misguided career move he made.
Generational talent
He wasn’t terrible. Just more ‘meh alright’ from him. Would start Fofana next week.
Don't understand why he's being played as a 9 with Mount and Gallagher as the players closest to him. The latter two seem incapable of actually combining with anyone - the backheel that Havertz played to Mount to run onto only for the latter to have stood there with his thumb up his arse was a particular lowlight.
If we are going to use Havertz as a 9, he needs runners close to him. Instead today we played Mount Gallagher and fecking Ziyech. Beyond idiotic.
Who would you have played though? Everyone’s either injured or not match fit. He had Ziyech and Mudryk up front with him on paper but in practice I saw amount further forward than Mudryk most of the time.
Madueke / Sterling on the right if both were limited in terms of game time. Would have played Hall in midfield again over Mount and Gallagher to be honest. I'd also like to start bedding Carney in as an 8 since I don't see how he will be a top level player otherwise.
I doubt you'll be able to convince Karen Carney to come out of retirement to play for the men's team.
I dunno, that cl winning goal would be hard to top anywhere else.
At same time think he's missing Werner but maybe he's peaked?
Hah I'd take her at this point! Apologies if I was unclear - was referring to Carney Chukwuemeka.
Winning the CL tops winning endless boring Bundesliga titles. Who the hell wants to subject themselves to that mind numbingly dull nonsense.
I gathered that. I was just being flippant. No need to apologise
Got a hearty chuckle out of me despite the circumstances!Was excellent today. He got a lot of criticism this season so expected him to look somewhat off touch. His link up play under pressure is very good and could make him a great false 9
Best player on the pitch today imo
Obviously, it's against a Bundesliga club. Can't perform against English teams.
This was probably the best performance from him in 3 years. So good tonight.
Hopefully that performance helps him get sold in the summer.
Wont fool me.
Wont fool me.
He's had a strange time at Chelsea. Cost upto 70m (was it 60 rising to 70?)
I don't know what his best position is meant to be for Chelsea?
But he's also scored a CL final winning goal (and the world club cup too right). Big moments to remember.
And he's only 23 which is crazy. Thought Chelsea fans would give him more leeway
I don't know what his best position is meant to be for Chelsea?
But he's also scored a CL final winning goal (and the world club cup too right). Big moments to remember.
And he's only 23 which is crazy. Thought Chelsea fans would give him more leeway
Superb performance tonight.
Everything seemed to stick controlling balls into him.
Can he carry this on though?
Everything seemed to stick controlling balls into him.
Can he carry this on though?
How much more leeway though?
In the summer he'll have been at the club for three full seasons and thus will only have two years left on his deal. As we all know having 2y on the contract is often the time to start thinking about the future of the player so do we look to extend him or do we look to sell him instead? And also would Havertz himself even want to extend given how much he's struggled in England?
There's a lot of talent in Kai and if we sell him there's absolutely a chance he'll kick on and become the player he was already supposed to be when he joined us but if there's a market for him (outside of the PL) in the summer I'd definitely sell.
There have been too many false dawns to get properly excited about him even when he actually does play well like last night.
I’d buy him in a heartbeat.
Same. Glad someone also sees it, think there is a really quality player there.