Thiago Silva over Magurie every day of the week.
Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Sure, I just tried to work with the names given in the quoted post
Oh I didn't see that! Fair enough.Sure, I just tried to work with the names given in the quoted post
Haha. I'm obviously not saying get all of them but if any of those would consider the move at cut price deals due to the situation we should go for it.
Every player there improves us.
If it ever came down to that, we would owe Arsenal first picks after they have bought all our players after they were shit for all these years.
Maguire over Silva?
Never. But Silva wasn't part of the originally posted list here.
Maguire shouldn’t be anywhere near that Chelsea team
Shouldn't be anywhere near the Utd team either.
Thought you should go all in on Sancho back then and ignore Lukaku because he'd make your attack very static. But most Chelsea fans were adamant to get a striker back then.
Imagine Havertz and Sancho linking up, coached by Tuchel
I remember you saying as much at the time. Sancho would be fantastic in our team.
Reminds me of RVP, in that he was playing out wide whilst he was young but that didn't particularly suit his skill-set. He moved to a secondary striker due to his passing and playmaking ability, and then moved into the lone striker.
I think Havertz has the same qualities - tall, playmaker, excellent movement, intelligence, vision, first touch and can turn that into lethal finishing.
I think Havertz has the same qualities - tall, playmaker, excellent movement, intelligence, vision, first touch and can turn that into lethal finishing.
This is a great point and is often the downside of positional versatility - especially when transferring to a new country and situation, having consistency in terms of where he's deployed and limiting how much he has to learn is valuable.
Yeah this has been notable. His back to goal play has definitely improved - suspect part of this might be the bad bout of COVID he had to deal with last season, especially as he struggled badly to get back up to speed once he was back.
Caveat that I've been on the lash a bit but what a fecking player he is. He's so much more comfortable with his surroundings this year and is really starting to blossom. Think he's our PotS so far pretty comfortably (ahead of Thiago Silva) and he's still just 22. The priority has to be buying players who complement him this summer - Lukaku has been an abject disaster and in retrospect @WeePat and I were completely correct that Sancho should have been the target instead.
Assuming we're allowed to sign players this summer Dembele is the one I want on a free - think he and Havertz would complement each other extremely well.
Assuming we're allowed to sign players this summer Dembele is the one I want on a free - think he and Havertz would complement each other extremely well.
Havertz is a problematic player. He's talented but he forces you to play a certain way if you want him to perform, and that pretty much determines your entire formation, a bit like Griezmann at Atletico back in the days or Dybala. He's not a great false 9 unless he can have wingers who will push forward, especially without Chillwell and a recoving Reese James. Is he good enough to build around him? Maybe, but it's risky. Players like Havertz aren't easy to properly integrate on the pitch but you can't put them on the bench because they're too good.
Imagine Havertz with players like Mane and Salah at either side or as a false 9 at Man City.
He’s playing there for us. 3 teams who play 3 different styles and he would compliment every style.
He is certainly not problematic.
He's sublime. He's our outright top scorer now with 13 goals in all comps. He could have bagged himself a couple more if was allowed more minutes today.
I think a lot of us could tell signing a traditional #9 could hinder his development and progress. If we can somehow recoup 50-60% of the fee we paid for Lukaku and continue to build smartly around the young core (Havertz, Mount, James etc) we could be going places.
That's exactly the kind of wingers I have in mind yes. The problem is, Mount is another of your key players for the future and I'm really not sure they both fit well together especially when mount is on the wing. Maybe a 4312 with Mount in the midfield?
If I were Chelsea I'd still try to get him from United. They could be tempted to sell him after the season he's having. I'd say you could offer them Lukaku but that's probably too much of a stretch
For us Havertz worked best with Brandt as a midfield partner who's not that dissimilar to Mount in terms of attacking play. Havertz is very, very versatile. Probably one of the most versatile top players around.
I don't really agree with this "versatility" argument. It was exactly the same for Griezmann or Dybala. They look versatile but they're really not in my opinion, because you can't play them efficently as real forwards and they're not great on the wing either. So it's either 8/10 or 10/false 9, which automatically limit your choices formation wise.
But yeah I can see him play with Mount in the midfield.
I guess I just disagree. Havertz hasn't shown he needs runners going past him to play well - he's entirely adept at playing on the shoulder of the last line of defense in a way that Dybala especially wasn't. If he were a pure false 9 as you say, he'd have never scored the goals against Newcastle or Real Madrid recently - he's just an all around brilliant player. As you say Dybala and Griezmann (albeit to a lesser extent) have both been pigeonholed into roles as a second striker working off a partner and I just don't think that applies to Havertz based on his time at Bayer and Chelsea to date.
He can do it, but that doesn't mean it's the best for Chelsea as a team. He has 7 PL goals in 22 games with 3 assists, it's just not consistent enough. Sure he'll score a great goal in the box every couple of weeks because he's a good player but that's not his best quality.
He's really come into his own the past few months. Not just the goals but his overall performances. Before playing in the middle he looked lost most of the time, no urgency in his play and quite sloppy in possession. Stark contrast now he seems to have developed a bit of bite and aggression in his game, while being majestic on the ball. Still has levels to go up but needs a better supporting cast to do so (Werner/Pulisic/Hudson-Odoi) aren't good enough.
excellent player
He didn't spend all of those games at CF. Don't forget Lukaku was the main starter until after the new year. Since he's been the main starter at CF, he's scored 8 goals in 11 games.
What we need is a technically great, fast, goal scoring wide player to play along the front line together with Havertz and Mount. Werner will surely leave so it should open up a spot. We are crying out for a player like Son/Jota/Luis Dias/Mané/Salah etc. Someone who can run their socks off, stretch defenses, and most importantly put up great numbers. That way we can have a fluid front 3 with all of them switching positions constantly.
If Bayern somehow can’t agree a new extension with Gnabry we should try for him. If Barca can’t agree a new extension with Dembele we should try for him. Just someone who has an elite mentality and doesn’t crumble like Werner and CHO do.
If Bayern somehow can’t agree a new extension with Gnabry we should try for him. If Barca can’t agree a new extension with Dembele we should try for him. Just someone who has an elite mentality and doesn’t crumble like Werner and CHO do.
Havertz played as a CM the majority of time for us. He actually showed his best performances in this position for us, especially in his 17 goals season. He can't play on the wing, that's true.
As @WeePat said, he was moved around earlier this year to accommodate Lukaku - most of his appearances in the first half of the season were as a hybrid CAM / inside forward in our usualy 3-4-2-1. Since moving to centre forward more or less exclusively, he's been very consistent and miles ahead of Lukaku (granted that is a very low bar).
Chiesa was THE one until.... Also Chiesa suits Tuchel's style 'to a T'
That could be a good role for Gnabry but his playstyle is really similar to Werner. Gnabry is better, but I don't think Gnabry instead of Werner will have THAT much of an impact.
It's not unlikely you could get him though. His contract runs out next summer and the contract extension isn't sure at the moment.
If we can't extend his contract in the next months reports say that our board will sell him this summer to prevent another Alaba/Süle situation and losing another great player in his best years for free.
If the Boehly group bid is accepted they already have one of the architects of Liverpools roster for the Fenway group in their fold apparently, so the mention of a lot of those guys and how the team could be built could be prescient.
One thing I won’t miss are the left field vanity purchases Roman made. You can’t convince me Tuchel wanted Lukaku. Some consistency and continued use of the academy, paired with some smarter purchases could work wonders.
What do you and other Bayern supporters think of Gnabry generally? Do you want to keep him?
A few months ago I would have definitely said yes, now I would say it depends.
Gnabry on his day is very good, but he's also somewhat limited. His dribbling and ball control aren't exactly great, he's not a player that shines at 1 vs. 1. His passing skills are also nothing special.
What he's really good at is his finishing. He's easily our 2nd best finisher in my opinion after Lewandowski.
And his runs and positioning are also good.
As I said, he's like a Werner with better finishing.
What's sadly also comparable to Werner is that he can't manage to play on a good and consistent level for several months.
In the past weeks he didn't play well but that's also due to the fact that he had to play as a right wing back several times.
But his body language and effort on the pitch are also somewhat lacking in my opinion.
I'm happy if he extends his contract but I'm also not very sad if he leaves and we can maybe sign a more consistent winger that is better in 1 vs. 1.
Maybe Mazraoui and Gravenberch can just pick up Antony on their way to Munich
Edit: playing next to Mount behind a striker like Havertz could work really well though I think.
I think Gnabry is an excellent and very underrated player. He's a bit like Müller as he shines through his great decision making and movement but also has very good technique and good pace. He's also one the most two footed players around I think.
Werner is much faster and more direct, though. He's theoretically the perfect fit.
I really struggle to understand the Lukaku signing. If Werner would have been trusted to sort out his finishing, you'd have had a 30 goals a season player who works very naturally with a mobile false 9 like Havertz. I think the Havertz goal yesterday was a good hint what type of player Werner can be when he has self esteem.
Werner is much faster and more direct, though. He's theoretically the perfect fit.
I really struggle to understand the Lukaku signing. If Werner would have been trusted to sort out his finishing, you'd have had a 30 goals a season player who works very naturally with a mobile false 9 like Havertz. I think the Havertz goal yesterday was a good hint what type of player Werner can be when he has self esteem.
I said this before we signed Lukaku. Our best and most fluid football last season had Werner in the team. Yes he missed a ludicrous amount of chances but we MADE clear chances, his speed unsettles defensive lines and creates space for others, prime example Havertz goal in the CL final. Lukaku was simply a luxury purchase that hasn’t worked like Shevchenko.
Yes, the goal in the final is the perfect example. Lukaku is generally a good player in the right system but was never going to fit into Tuchel's style of play.
so what do we make of this Havertz guy? Do we regret him not being at United?
Poor finisher, but I absolutely loved his performance today.