Dimitar Berbatov | 2010/11 Performances

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Allforone said:
Nothing will change unfortunately, he'll carry on playing well giving the team great creativity and class and yet when the big games come around and Sir Alex goes to the preferred and entirely required 4-5-1 the usual suspects will yet again use it as a stick to beat him with and at the same time continue to display their lack of knowledge and basic understanding of why hes not selected in the 4-5-1 and why the formation is needed against classier opposition.

The usual talk of "if he was playing well enough wed play 4-4-2 with him and Rooney etc etc" will again resurface despite these same people failing to understand why 4-4-2 is avoided at all costs as its a totally redundant system at the top level of football these days against proper opposition.
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If his good form continues, we may see a 4-4-2 against some strong sides...again. Depending on the wingers selected and the particular instructions they've been given, we may rethink some things.
For example, Park on the left in a 4-4-2 is almost as effective as 4-3-3.
If the wingers are strictly instructed to get more involved with defending and helping the midfield 2, as opposite to going forward and expect service.
Berba seems to be moving more and differently. He loves the freedom he's been given this season
 
Allforone said:
Who at no time played with 2 centre forwards, hence proving my point, ta.

How about this list:

Barcelona
Chelsea
Real Madrid
Manchester United
Arsenal
Inter Milan
AC Milan
Liverpool
City even

Not one of them plays with a 4-4-2.
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Even Bayern who played the so called 4-4-2 had Muller who was brilliant at dropping deep or going wide. He is very mobile and though notionally Bayern were set up as 4-4-2 they played more like 4-5-1 due to Mullers ability to go wide and work the flanks.
 
Commadus said:
Even Bayern who played the so called 4-4-2 had Muller who was brilliant at dropping deep or going wide. He is very mobile and though notionally Bayern were set up as 4-4-2 they played more like 4-5-1 due to Mullers ability to go wide and work the flanks.
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Exactly, anyone who considers Muller a striker playing in a front 2 in that bayern side last season dosnt understand football.

It was 4-5-1 with Muller pushing up in support of Olic when in possesion.
 
Allforone said:
Nothing will change unfortunately, he'll carry on playing well giving the team great creativity and class and yet when the big games come around and Sir Alex goes to the preferred and entirely required 4-5-1 the usual suspects will yet again use it as a stick to beat him with and at the same time continue to display their lack of knowledge and basic understanding of why hes not selected in the 4-5-1 and why the formation is needed against classier opposition.

The usual talk of "if he was playing well enough wed play 4-4-2 with him and Rooney etc etc" will again resurface despite these same people failing to understand why 4-4-2 is avoided at all costs as its a totally redundant system at the top level of football these days against proper opposition.
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Do you think Fergie may try and incorporate Berbatov into the 451 by perhaps putting Rooney on the left and using one of Nani/Valencia on the right? I think Shimo has a point when he says it took Rooney a while to settle into the lone striker role so perhaps a little patience with Berbatov may pay dividends.

Not saying it will happen but I'm sure Fergie is desperate to find a way to get Berbatov involved in the bigger games as I think we lacked his creativity in certain games last season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I don't see Fergie ever playing Rooney out wide again. Not after last season's goal haul.
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He did have some fantastic performances on the left though in previous seasons. I still remember that pass to Carrick for the penalty v Spurs in that 5-2.

In any case I suppose it's a good problem to have.
 
esmufc10 said:
Do you think Fergie may try and incorporate Berbatov into the 451 by perhaps putting Rooney on the left and using one of Nani/Valencia on the right? I think Shimo has a point when he says it took Rooney a while to settle into the lone striker role so perhaps a little patience with Berbatov may pay dividends.

Not saying it will happen but I'm sure Fergie is desperate to find a way to get Berbatov involved in the bigger games as I think we lacked his creativity in certain games last season.
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That is exactly the question I am dying to find the answer to. Berba is too good and on current form, we must find a way of utilizing him
 
esmufc10 said:
Do you think Fergie may try and incorporate Berbatov into the 451 by perhaps putting Rooney on the left and using one of Nani/Valencia on the right? I think Shimo has a point when he says it took Rooney a while to settle into the lone striker role so perhaps a little patience with Berbatov may pay dividends.

Not saying it will happen but I'm sure Fergie is desperate to find a way to get Berbatov involved in the bigger games as I think we lacked his creativity in certain games last season.
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No honestly i dont for 2 reasons, 1 being Rooney is a much more able lone striker than Berbatov and 2 because both Nani and Valencia are much better and more effective wide players than Rooney is, hence to accommodate Berbatov in the system and the way your suggesting wed have to effectively weaken both our striking and wide areas of the pitch to do so which i dont see Fergie doing for a second.

Its just unfortunate that hes not comfortable as a lone striker and hes of course not Wayne Rooney, its also a shame hes not able to play one of the wider roles in the system like Anelka for example can do for Chelsea or Villa does for Spain, but again both Nani and Valencia even Giggs are just far better options in said positions so theres no reason to mess about with it.

Its an unfortunate situation for Berbatov but one that has to be made for the benefit of the team, 4-5-1 and Berbatov just dosnt go, and 4-4-2 in big games dosnt either, one has to miss out and that ones never going to be Rooney.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Maybe behind Rooney in a 4231?
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I have the yesterday game recorded. There was a moment, when the camera showed the front 4 lined up exactly like that. It was so obvious, that I though of taking a snap picture of the screen and posting it here
 
Allforone said:
Who at no time played with 2 centre forwards, hence proving my point, ta.

How about this list:

Barcelona
Chelsea
Real Madrid
Manchester United
Arsenal
Inter Milan
AC Milan
Liverpool
City even

Every major player in europe of the modern era and not one of them plays with a 4-4-2, go figure.
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Muller's closer to a striker than a centre mid, though, don't you think?

Bayern play a 4231 if you want to be specific about tactics, which is what we play in league games with Berbatov, so I don't see your point?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We've played 4231 loads of times :confused:
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Never in big games with Berbatov, 4-2-3-1 is exactly what Liverpool were under Benitez, 2 sitters/destroyers in front of the back 4 (Mascherano/lucas) with Gerrard off Torres and 2 wide players, we dont have midfielders in the lucas Mascherano type who do nothing but sit and destroy in front of the defence, Midfielders at Manchester United are expected to play, their demanded to be able to do both jobs up and down the pitch hence Fletcher is the perfect example, a box to box player nothing like the Mascherano and Lucas roles at Liverpool.
 
Allforone said:
Never in big games with Berbatov, 4-2-3-1 is exactly what Liverpool were under Benitez, 2 sitters/destroyers in front of the back 4 (Mascherano/lucas) with Gerrard off Torres and 2 wide players, we dont have midfielders in the lucas Mascherano type who do nothing but sit and destroy in front of the defence, Midfielders at Manchester United are expected to be able to do both jobs up and down the pitch hence Fletcher, a box to box player nothing like the Mascherano and Lucas roles at Liverpool.
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Scholes and Carrick can both sit deep and arguably do their best stuff from just in front of the back four.
 
With the way he's playing at the minute i think it would be more beneficial to go with two up top even in the big games. When we play with one up top, yes we're probably more likely to win the battle in the middle of the park but i think we find it harder to retain possession with only the one target up top. With an inform Berbatov partnering Rooney i think we're defending from the front a bit better, with Berbatov providing a focal point upfront and helping us to retain possession.

With Rooney up top on his own i think we're more of a counterattacking side, and reliant more on a perfect killer pass. Until he regains top form i dont think we can really go with this formation at the moment.
 
Muller's closer to a striker than a centre mid, though, don't you think
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When his teams in possession he is yes for Bayern he pushes up in support of Olic, but when Bayern lose the ball he drops back into the midfield with Shweinsteiger and Van Bommel and makes it a 5 which is what made that system effective for Bayern last season, at no time did they have 2 front men up the pitch ahead of the ball when the opposition were attacking them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Scholes and Carrick can both sit deep and arguably do their best stuff from just in front of the back four.
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They can sit deep yes, but their not 'defensive midfielders' their proper footballers, ball players, in that system you really need 2 hatchet men to put it bluntly, especially if your going to have 2 strikers/forwards ahead of play the whole time with or without possession, we saw what happened to a combination of Scholes and Carrick at anfield last November, we got crushed/overrun/dominated in midfield because we were outnumbered and outfought by 2 different types of midfield player and were well beaten as a result....we lost that game totally in midfield.

Scholes and Carrick are not what you want to be going into a big game with as a 2 man midfield and its not a surprise weve never tried it since the anfield catastrophe, i think that was the day when fergie finally realise 2 man midfields in such games are a thing of the past, its a relic.
 
I thought Muller had a pretty standard defensive role when off the ball in that he was the one who stopped the deepest opposition midfielder from having time and space on the ball, which was generally what Berbatov does(to less effect, admittedly)...

This is taking the thread in completely the wrong direction, I'm out.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I quite like Rooney wide left. He seems to drift there anyway. But I doubt we'll see him out wide again.
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If we progress in Europe anything is possible with Fergie, depending on the opponent and I too have no problem with Rooney out wide on occasion.

A good footballer like Rooney can play several roles and the recent fixation with abbreviated positional names CM, DCM, ACM etc seems to have the implication that the more you deviate from this specific the less effective you will be. Is that a factor in Football Manager by any chance?
 
Brwned said:
I thought Muller had a pretty standard defensive role when off the ball in that he was the one who stopped the deepest opposition midfielder from having time and space on the ball, which was generally what Berbatov does(to less effect, admittedly)...

This is taking the thread in completely the wrong direction, I'm out.
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Its not really, its just a more detailed discussion as to why Berbatov ultimately finds it hard to get into our big game system, its all directly linked to the player in question so im not sure how its going off topic.
 
CentreForward said:
If his good form continues, we may see a 4-4-2 against some strong sides...again. Depending on the wingers selected and the particular instructions they've been given, we may rethink some things.
For example, Park on the left in a 4-4-2 is almost as effective as 4-3-3.
If the wingers are strictly instructed to get more involved with defending and helping the midfield 2, as opposite to going forward and expect service.
Berba seems to be moving more and differently. He loves the freedom he's been given this season
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I'm hoping Park's tactical versatility allows Berbatov to start the big games too. Even in a notional 4-4-2, Park tucks in plenty to provide a third man in midfield. If the situation called for it, he could move even more central and Rooney could play on the left for phases of the game as required. Whether it ends up happening or not, I'd be very surprised of Fergie hasn't been thinking of ways to integrate Berbatov into the team for the big matches after the way he's started the season.
 
moses said:
If we progress in Europe anything is possible with Fergie, depending on the opponent and I too have no problem with Rooney out wide on occasion.

A good footballer like Rooney can play several roles and the recent fixation with abbreviated positional names CM, DCM, ACM etc seems to have the implication that the more you deviate from this specific the less effective you will be. Is that a factor in Football Manager by any chance?
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I've no idea. Those abbreviations put my teeth on edge tbh.
 
Berbatov has been very good this season.

Finally might show his supposed class.
 
I find it weird that so many comments refer to Berbatov being a much-improved player. Slimmer, quicker, harder working etc. Am I the only one who remembers the exact same performances (and comments) at the beginning of last season?

As far as I can remember he put in a string of solid performances, then picked up a niggling knee injury on international duty, played poorly in a couple of games and sat out a bunch of tough aways when we played 451.

He then picked up a bit again, did very well in Rooney's absence away at Bolton but was part of a poor team performance against Chelsea and Blackburn (where he was our best player in the first half) and bizarrely got scape-goated for us crashing out of Europe despite barely playing.

IMO those bad vibes from the end of the season have somehow convince a load of folk that he was shite all season and know they're perceiving his current form is a revelation.

Personally, I don't think I've seen anything in the last 2 or 3 games that I didn't see last season.

I dunno. It's all a bit odd.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I find it weird that so many comments refer to Berbatov being a much-improved player. Slimmer, quicker, harder working etc. Am I the only one who remembers the exact same performances (and comments) at the beginning of last season?

As far as I can remember he put in a string of solid performances, then picked up a niggling knee injury on international duty, played poorly in a couple of games and sat out a bunch of tough aways when we played 451.

He then picked up a bit again, did very well in Rooney's absence away at Bolton but was part of a poor team performance against Chelsea and Blackburn (where he was our best player in the first half) and bizarrely got scape-goated for us crashing out of Europe despite barely playing.

IMO those bad vibes from the end of the season have somehow convince a load of folk that he was shite all season and know they're perceiving his current form is a revelation.

Personally, I don't think I've seen anything in the last 2 or 3 games that I didn't see last season.

I dunno. It's all a bit odd.
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it was ever thus, pogue
 
i think the reason behind that is due to the expectations and pressure. Last season, aside from Rooney and Berbatov, we were a bit short on striking options - Owen did well but was often injured/not fit, and the likes of Welbeck, Macheda and Diouf were not ready to make anything more than a small handful of appearances.

This season we have Hernandez who looks promising and Macheda has another year under his belt. Knowing that these two are around means a bit less pressure on Berbatov (and Rooney for that matter) to be the ones providing all the goals.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
We've played 4231 loads of times :confused:
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We did for alot of our 06/07 title winning season with Rooney playing in the hole just behind Saha they were never really as close together as some think when they were on the field together and sometimes they would even switch lead striker roles. This was when Wayne was still able to play as a withdrawn striker but was in the process of being turned into a lead striker.

We can easily do the same in a big game with both Scholes and to a lesser extent fletch playing as both deep lying playmaker and Defensive midfielder and Berba playing just behind Rooney.

Allforone said:
Fergies never played with 2 'holding' players in his life and thats the only way that system works, it probably is the only plausible way to get Berbatov into our 'big match' system but we dont have the midfield players to do it.
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4231 does not need nessesarily need two holding players to work, it actually works at its best with two deep lying playmakers. We did this between 06-08 where in some games you could clearly see Scholes and sometimes Carrick(when on form), come deep to receive the ball almost off the back four and launch diagonal crossfield passes out to the flanks for Cristiano or whoever was on the other flank it worker a treat then and I still think it was work well especially in big games.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I find it weird that so many comments refer to Berbatov being a much-improved player. Slimmer, quicker, harder working etc. Am I the only one who remembers the exact same performances (and comments) at the beginning of last season?

As far as I can remember he put in a string of solid performances, then picked up a niggling knee injury on international duty, played poorly in a couple of games and sat out a bunch of tough aways when we played 451.

He then picked up a bit again, did very well in Rooney's absence away at Bolton but was part of a poor team performance against Chelsea and Blackburn (where he was our best player in the first half) and bizarrely got scape-goated for us crashing out of Europe despite barely playing.

IMO those bad vibes from the end of the season have somehow convince a load of folk that he was shite all season and know they're perceiving his current form is a revelation.

Personally, I don't think I've seen anything in the last 2 or 3 games that I didn't see last season.

I dunno. It's all a bit odd.
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Agree with most of that except that I think he is now playing at a consistantly higher tempo than he was last season. People think its his workrate that has changed from last season but its actually that he now seems to be playing more consistantly at the same tempo as the rest of the team.

We saw that on occasions last season but suprisingly only when we were up against it or a goal down. I think now he seems to have actually grasped the fact that its his tempo and sense of urgency that needs to change and so far so good.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I find it weird that so many comments refer to Berbatov being a much-improved player. Slimmer, quicker, harder working etc. Am I the only one who remembers the exact same performances (and comments) at the beginning of last season?

As far as I can remember he put in a string of solid performances, then picked up a niggling knee injury on international duty, played poorly in a couple of games and sat out a bunch of tough aways when we played 451.

He then picked up a bit again, did very well in Rooney's absence away at Bolton but was part of a poor team performance against Chelsea and Blackburn (where he was our best player in the first half) and bizarrely got scape-goated for us crashing out of Europe despite barely playing.

IMO those bad vibes from the end of the season have somehow convince a load of folk that he was shite all season and know they're perceiving his current form is a revelation.

Personally, I don't think I've seen anything in the last 2 or 3 games that I didn't see last season.

I dunno. It's all a bit odd.
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Personally, I disagree. He has definitely improved so far this season. He has become quicker and slimmer (he has always worked hard for the team - that accusation was always a bit unfair) for sure.

Last season I always felt he went missing when the team really needed him and this time round he has become the focal point of our attack. That right there is a clear difference and why a lot of people who weren't overjoyed of his flittering performances last season want him to keep up the good work. Obviously he wasn't shite all season but the holy grail game of Bolton away, I felt he had an average game in the first half till we managed to get a somewhat lucky own goal to broke the game for us. Against Blackburn and Chelsea we didn't have that luck. He drifted in and out of matches he supposedly played well in often. This year so far even in the Fulham match where some idiots claimed he played badly he remained integral to majority of our attacks.

I don't think anyone sane scapegoated him for the Champions League exit either. Just people pointed how strange it was Ferguson preferred to play a half fit Rooney and then Nani over bringing on Berbatov. If we were in the exact same situation now, the half fit Rooney would be on the bench and Berbatov would definitely start. So there is a difference from last year so far. I do agree he started the season well last year so hopefully this year he keeps it up all round.
 
sglowrider said:
Speaking of tops, I dont ever remember taking his top off whenever he scored a goal (and subsequently getting a yellow card.)

I wonder what is it about this game or perhaps this season that he seems more emotionally charged?
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I think he's obviously showing more motivation, for whatever reason. Whether it be proving doubters wrong or simply wanting to come good in a red shirt, his performances thus far have shown plenty of conviction.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I find it weird that so many comments refer to Berbatov being a much-improved player. Slimmer, quicker, harder working etc. Am I the only one who remembers the exact same performances (and comments) at the beginning of last season?

As far as I can remember he put in a string of solid performances, then picked up a niggling knee injury on international duty, played poorly in a couple of games and sat out a bunch of tough aways when we played 451.

He then picked up a bit again, did very well in Rooney's absence away at Bolton but was part of a poor team performance against Chelsea and Blackburn (where he was our best player in the first half) and bizarrely got scape-goated for us crashing out of Europe despite barely playing.

IMO those bad vibes from the end of the season have somehow convince a load of folk that he was shite all season and know they're perceiving his current form is a revelation.

Personally, I don't think I've seen anything in the last 2 or 3 games that I didn't see last season.

I dunno. It's all a bit odd.
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You're right that his performance levels last season were never as bad as they were made out to be, but he's definitely taken his entire performance level up a notch or two.
 
He has played well against Newcastle and West Ham at home, he was average away from home against Fulham.

If this constitutes an improvement then it's clutching at straws. As Pogue pointed out he has been decent - perhaps underwhelming at times but not dog dirt poor. He got 14 goals and about 10 assists last season he will get about the same this season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I find it weird that so many comments refer to Berbatov being a much-improved player. Slimmer, quicker, harder working etc. Am I the only one who remembers the exact same performances (and comments) at the beginning of last season?

As far as I can remember he put in a string of solid performances, then picked up a niggling knee injury on international duty, played poorly in a couple of games and sat out a bunch of tough aways when we played 451.

He then picked up a bit again, did very well in Rooney's absence away at Bolton but was part of a poor team performance against Chelsea and Blackburn (where he was our best player in the first half) and bizarrely got scape-goated for us crashing out of Europe despite barely playing.

IMO those bad vibes from the end of the season have somehow convince a load of folk that he was shite all season and know they're perceiving his current form is a revelation.

Personally, I don't think I've seen anything in the last 2 or 3 games that I didn't see last season.

I dunno. It's all a bit odd.
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You rated Nani's performance yesterday as a poor first half and an excellent/good second half, and definitely not a great match from Nani overall, when some of us suggested it was a match ranging from very good to great. You even attributed that to Caf muppetry.

Now you choose to rate Berbatov's frankly abysmal performance against Chelsea and Blackburn as a part of overall poor team performance with a better first half in one of the matches? Using the same yardstick as Nani, wouldn't it be fair to say it was a poor performance in the first half and a terrible one overall in those last two matches?

No, Berbatov wasn't playing solid overall, he was doing just ok in all those matches. I think you rate Berbatov' way too much than necessary while managing to bring down Nani's performance. You seem to bring down Nani because he's not consistent, yet somehow manage to credit Berbatov for solid performances, when even his solid matches according to you only saw a few odd good touches and moves here and there.
Not saying Berbatov is a failure or something, but he had an appalling season last term and that's his second here, because if he was banging goals left down and center, he wouldn't be sitting out games in a 4-5-1.

He's showing additional promise in these matches, but good performances against Newcastle and West Ham aren't the sort of indications that he has turned a corner. He has to show this level of consistency in a string of games, like Nani did the second half of last season.

I don't know, it all seems a bit odd.
 
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