That sums it up for me.
Everyone wants him to succeed so badly that it's eastly to hone in on a few fancy dan moves and pass this off as a good game.
Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances
- Thread starter Rood
- Start date
- Status
That sums it up for me.
Everyone wants him to succeed so badly that it's eastly to hone in on a few fancy dan moves and pass this off as a good game.
Very well said Pogue, sometimes on Redcafe the argument is lost before the debate has begun.
i don't think it is a bad thing though. I am in the anti-Berbs team but i badly want him to do well. For the sake of our club. I'd be glad if he gave me reasons to call myself an idiot who knows shit bout football. Please Berba make it happen.
Ronaldo is excused his inconsistencies throughout matches due to his consistency? Righto.
Wow! Can't believe there's actually a guy compared Berbatov to Ronaldo. Let's him score 42 goals in one season before making any comparison will ya?
Wow! Can't believe there's actually a guy compared Berbatov to Ronaldo. Let's him score 42 goals in one season before making any comparison will ya?
Let him score 42 goals in 2 seasons for us and he'll have had a good season...
Agree! Every Utd player should be judged on Ronaldo's goal tally, doing otherwise would be condoning underachievement
This is Berbatov's fourth season and he's yet to reach 42 league goals.
Agree! Every Utd player should be judged on Ronaldo's goal tally, doing otherwise would be condoning underachievement
42 goals over two season is 21 goals per season, I dont think thats asking too much of a 30 million pound striker, our most expensive player of all time.
OH NOES SHOCK HORROR I brought up his price tag... why the feck not? If I was paying a million bucks for a house I would expect a mansion not a trailer
42 goals over two season is 21 goals per season, I dont think thats asking too much of a 30 million pound striker, our most expensive player of all time.
OH NOES SHOCK HORROR I brought up his price tag... why the feck not? If I was paying a million bucks for a house I would expect a mansion not a trailer
Different way too look at his contribution than me then. I give feck all about his price tag as long as the team is successful, having seen all the discussion about him here there really is little else to say. But to use Ronaldo's goals as a broomstick surely is a bit over the top?
As for housing evaluations, you don't get much for your money these days anyway
And it was SAF's determination to get his man andLevy's stubbornness that hiked the price, not to mention the deadline looming. We all agree he isn't a 30 mill. striker I'm sure. But who is anyway? I'm happy he joined, but I was extatic about Veron joining too so....
Whilst it's easy to start banging on about goals and assists and other shit stats, it must be considered that when you take away the stats, there are other moments in the game that aren't recorded in numbers which contribute to his position in the team. Look at the contribution of Rooney as a whole, the chances he creates or is involved in. Rooney WANTS the ball all the time. Cole and Yorke, both great strikers who both had impressive goal and assist stats but the amount of chances and work off the ball which isn't recorded in the annuls of history for me shows what great players they both were. Ruud, he worked hard unusually for a thirty-plus goal a season striker also.
Berbatov doesnt seem to want to accept the mantle of his position in the team, forget about the price-tag because we've had one million pound players do much more than him, look at three million pound Obertan, what a bargain he looks like turning out to be, but he wants the ball and he wants to do things with the ball, that is what makes a Man United player and Berbatov may have been good at Sofia, at Leverkusen and at Spurs, but he is simply not a United player and I've been saying this since September 2008.....
Berbatov doesnt seem to want to accept the mantle of his position in the team, forget about the price-tag because we've had one million pound players do much more than him, look at three million pound Obertan, what a bargain he looks like turning out to be, but he wants the ball and he wants to do things with the ball, that is what makes a Man United player and Berbatov may have been good at Sofia, at Leverkusen and at Spurs, but he is simply not a United player and I've been saying this since September 2008.....
Your join date says May 2009.....hmmmm, hehehe
He'll get there don't worry about it
Apparently he threw the javelin when he was younger lad
One thing that does piss me off, was that nonchalant penalty he took in the FA Cup semi v Everton
In some ways I agree with you scoreboard red, but as he said himself, he shows in glimpses what he can do for the team. I hope he can do that even more consistently, and I'll back him all the way. I firmly believe that Fletcher wouldn't have made it where he is today if he hadn't had a certain jock stubbornness, but I'm also sure all the negativity haltered his progress somewhat. From what I've heard from Berbatov so far, he seems a bit more sensitive. I have no way of telling how criticism affects him, but having a some of your own fans against can't be easy no matter what.
To me it all boils down to this; SAF decides to shell out 30 million pounds on a striker with obvious technical qualities and a reasonable goal record. Does SAF gamble with that much money? After Veron (and considering the financial situation of the club), I'd say no. I've seen gradual improvement since he joined, the problem is that his injuries and injuries of others has forced to SAF to change the team around more often than desired.
To me it all boils down to this; SAF decides to shell out 30 million pounds on a striker with obvious technical qualities and a reasonable goal record. Does SAF gamble with that much money? After Veron (and considering the financial situation of the club), I'd say no. I've seen gradual improvement since he joined, the problem is that his injuries and injuries of others has forced to SAF to change the team around more often than desired.
Quite true. In fact at his current rate of scoring in the league for United, I estimate it would take him until about February 2013 to score 42 goals
By which time he would be 32 years of age
Agreeing with a supporter of a team with a blind manager is rarely wise. Especially when it's regarding a player which used to play for their rivals. Just saying.
He stated fact Norse
Not agreeing with him just because he supports a team with a blind manager, and the player in question used to play for their rivals, just because of the team they support... well surely that's even less wise?!
He stated fact Norse
Not agreeing with him just because he supports a team with a blind manager, and the player in question used to play for their rivals, just because of the team they support... well surely that's even less wise?!
True about the facts, can't argue there. My nogglish certainly doesn't always serve me, was thinking about the implied meaning of lack of goals here, didn't get my message across. Clearly wise is a word I shouldn't have used as I'm a wee bit lacking in that department at the moment
In short, it was a poor post. My best is yet to come Different way too look at his contribution than me then. I give feck all about his price tag as long as the team is successful, having seen all the discussion about him here there really is little else to say. But to use Ronaldo's goals as a broomstick surely is a bit over the top?
As for housing evaluations, you don't get much for your money these days anyway
Levy's stubbornness that hiked the price, not to mention the deadline looming. We all agree he isn't a 30 mill. striker I'm sure. But who is anyway? I'm happy he joined, but I was extatic about Veron joining too so....
Hehe well played! I was thrilled when he joined, but to me he is just not the right fit at all. Hes had a season or so to prove him self and there is no way (I feel) that he has proved himself. The money could have been spent better elsewhere, and I think if SAF hadnt been backed in to a corner with the price + deadline to buy him, he would have thought twice about spending that much on berbatov.
I've pretty much given up on him being an integral part of the team. Thats pretty much my problem with him. He has at no point shown that he is or that he will ever become an integral part of this team. I would love to be proved wrong of course. But I can see any number of stats and nothing will convince me that he has been a valuable addition, because I can SEE what is happening in the game. He adds nothing of value apart from the occasional bit of genious. Dont doubt his talent, he just doesnt fit with this team.
I don't know what it is with Berbatov, even with all the hype and rumour of his transfer to us and then the subsequent arrival on deadline day last year, I just wasn't that enthralled at all. I really did think that in Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez and Saha, we had a great set of strikers who played quick, attractive football and could not see the point in interfering with it.
I think the main aspect of it all is the transfer muppetry of it. By this, I mean we all love an expensive signing of which there have been several at United, be it Roy Keane, Andy Cole, Dwight Yorke, Van Nistelrooy or Rio Ferdinand, but these players delivered, despite their huge price tags. There has only been one other major expensive flop and that is Veron. With his case, he was the first instance in which us Reds couldn't comprehend that he wasn't working out and I was one of these who said 'give him a chance, he's brilliant, blah blah'. Which he was, but he never consistently shown this. Just like Berbatov.
And like then, the fans started sgregating about Veron, some singing his praises on his ability whilst some complained he wasn't peforming despite his ability.
Then when he left, most decided to agree he was a flop.
There has to be a time when Reds will all agree that Berbatov has been a flop for United, yet I suspect this will be in the mainstream once he leaves or when he is replaced by another signing who is more succesful than him, relegating him to much more of a limited gametime.
What strikes me is the similarities in Veron's and Berbatov's arrival and failures and that for me is that Fergie has bought these players to strengthen an already incredibly strong area of the side. Back in 2001, there was no better midfield foursome than Giggs, Scholes, Keane and Beckham anywhere, yet Fergie decided to introduce Veron and what followed was a series of uncertain lineups, players out of position and inconsistent displays. When Fergie bought Berbatov, he broke up the frontline trio of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez, who were described as our new Holy Trinity en force the previous season, and still remain possibly the most exciting United attack I have witnessed in my many years supporting the Reds. Without going into Tevez (as I am a fanboy of the Fugly Argentine), last season saw us canter to the league in a piss poor season when Chelsea and Arsenal were majorly understrengthed and Liverpool finished second. Again, Fergie made unneccessary changes to a brilliant attack and played Rooney out of position and borke up succesful partnerships. Look, we had a successful season but it was still frustrating to see considering it could have been so more potent and eloquent to watch.
I hope Berb picks up his ideas, but as I've always felt from day one of watching him and ever since, I can't see it and I reckon that others are begining to admit this, not realise it, en masse more and more as each match goes by.....
I think the main aspect of it all is the transfer muppetry of it. By this, I mean we all love an expensive signing of which there have been several at United, be it Roy Keane, Andy Cole, Dwight Yorke, Van Nistelrooy or Rio Ferdinand, but these players delivered, despite their huge price tags. There has only been one other major expensive flop and that is Veron. With his case, he was the first instance in which us Reds couldn't comprehend that he wasn't working out and I was one of these who said 'give him a chance, he's brilliant, blah blah'. Which he was, but he never consistently shown this. Just like Berbatov.
And like then, the fans started sgregating about Veron, some singing his praises on his ability whilst some complained he wasn't peforming despite his ability.
Then when he left, most decided to agree he was a flop.
There has to be a time when Reds will all agree that Berbatov has been a flop for United, yet I suspect this will be in the mainstream once he leaves or when he is replaced by another signing who is more succesful than him, relegating him to much more of a limited gametime.
What strikes me is the similarities in Veron's and Berbatov's arrival and failures and that for me is that Fergie has bought these players to strengthen an already incredibly strong area of the side. Back in 2001, there was no better midfield foursome than Giggs, Scholes, Keane and Beckham anywhere, yet Fergie decided to introduce Veron and what followed was a series of uncertain lineups, players out of position and inconsistent displays. When Fergie bought Berbatov, he broke up the frontline trio of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez, who were described as our new Holy Trinity en force the previous season, and still remain possibly the most exciting United attack I have witnessed in my many years supporting the Reds. Without going into Tevez (as I am a fanboy of the Fugly Argentine), last season saw us canter to the league in a piss poor season when Chelsea and Arsenal were majorly understrengthed and Liverpool finished second. Again, Fergie made unneccessary changes to a brilliant attack and played Rooney out of position and borke up succesful partnerships. Look, we had a successful season but it was still frustrating to see considering it could have been so more potent and eloquent to watch.
I hope Berb picks up his ideas, but as I've always felt from day one of watching him and ever since, I can't see it and I reckon that others are begining to admit this, not realise it, en masse more and more as each match goes by.....
Sir Alex thought we needed to change mate, as in Europe we really underperformed from 99 onwards. The side we had was excellent, no doubt about it but we needed to buck up our ideas for Europe, as we were too predictable and teams found it increasingly easier to deal with what we had to offer. Bringing Veron in was to try and get a quality three man midfield, and to be fair to him, Seba was often excellent in Europe and wildly inconsistent in the League (he was better in the second season).
I guess if we are looking at similarities, Sir Alex didn't want to stick to a winning formula as it wouldn't guarantee success forever. In that sense Berbatov was brought in maybe to offer something different, a bit like Veron could. You don't even have to look that far to see a team that has tried to change a winning formula... Barca - treble winners, have sold Eto'o and brought in Zlatan... Completely different players with unique styles. Guardiola could've just kept a winning system and not freshened up anything but you can't stand still. Great players from that side remain of course but Zlatan offers a new dimension, something which Eto'o couldn't.
Basically, you can't stand still in football. Yes, we won the league three times in a row from 99-01 with a largely unchanged side (but some true greats there) but in Europe it wont cut it. So Sir Alex and Guardiola decided to switch things up after CL wins, we got to the final the following year and we'll see how Barca do this year. What people shouldn't do is presume that had the team stuck with a formula from the previous season they would have done better. That's not neccessarily true.
No, it's not but in these instances they've just not worked at all, have they? Veron did have good games, course he did but again was inconsistent, as you rightly point out. So has Berbatov, although he, for me anyway, has shown even less consistency.
And I do not see why the need to strenghten unless there were any signs of the side waning, which in 2001 with a 27 year old Giggs, a 28 year old Keane, and 26 year old Scholes and Beckham was certainly not, they were peaking even. And also with Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo, all were 24/25 years old and all hugely experienced and succesful internationals who in one season playing together in 2007/08 blew everyone away. It didn't show any signs of breakage, why fix it? It fecked things up in my opinion and led to a mass debate and stupid opinions to the talent of Carlos Tevez who is clearly a great player and was for us.
Was always gonna leave in the near future
I think that some of the comments posted here have been wide of the mark. Berbatove is a top player. We have to look at each and every fixture and decide on the formation to play.
We cannot make unrealistic comparisons. Ronaldo was unique, a winger who could score goals.
While he is playing for United, let us get behind the team whenever they play.
We are not the manager who sees the guys in training every day.
Please stick to your day jobs.
We cannot make unrealistic comparisons. Ronaldo was unique, a winger who could score goals.
While he is playing for United, let us get behind the team whenever they play.
We are not the manager who sees the guys in training every day.
Please stick to your day jobs.
Well, I've considered that and with buying a more 'traditional' winger in Valencia, I was hopeful pre-season that we'd see the best out of Berbatov now that Ronaldo had gone in the same sense we saw at Spurs with Lennon crossing it to him, but alas, we're still not.
Ronaldo might still have left of course had we not bought Berbatov and instead kept Tevez who had a fruitful partnership with Rooney or perhaps bought Benzema, but that's not the issue, the issue is Berbatov underperforming since arriving.
OK mate, I'll get back to work, you get back to sticking your head in the sand, you TOP RED.....
Why dont you disband this forum while you are at it
We did well in 07/08, it was an excellent side with such a well rounded squad but it didn't blow anyone away. It wasn't as if we won the league comfortably, like the 00 and 01 side did and didn't blow the rest of Europe away (not that many teams have mind). Arsenal imploded in the league and we should've ran away with it really but let Chelsea back into it. As for the 2001 midfield, it wasn't really about replacing anyone, it was about change and innovation for Europe. We underperformed pure and simple... Yes we had a great midfield on the face of it but like I said, we became predictable and weren't able to get further beyond the quarter finals. The season Veron came in, we faced Leverkusen in the semis and really should've gone through but couldn't find enough in the end. That was progress, even if it was only one stage further but it was the best we had done since 99.
On the face of it, no. Berbatov hasn't been great but I am just trying to explain the logic behind his signing. Tevez was very good for us, and he worked well with Rooney and Ronaldo at times but there were plenty of times where they didn't work. If we look back at our European campaign, the trio weren't exactly blowing everyone away. We played against Lyon in round 2, Tevez got us that late goal in Lyon (a game which he didn't start) and Ronaldo got us the goal at Old Trafford... But our trio was far from deadly. In the QF's, Ronaldo scored that brilliant header and Rooney got us the second goal that killed the game off. Tevez, who didn't start the first leg then played in the second leg (with a weakened side) and sealed it, after De Rossi thankfully missed a penalty. Against Barcelona we were fortunate that they couldn't really create much with out entire side pretty much back in the defence. We chanced our luck but my point is how many times did the trio of Rooney/Ronaldo/Tevez look the part? They hardly started any games together from Round 2 onwards. There was still plenty of room for improvement to our side, and let's not forget we won the final on penalties in the end, even though we should've been out of sight after the first half. If John Terry had scored, would we have said keep the side how it is? No, we still had weaknesses. Sir Alex rightly or wrongly felt that Berbatov would be a good addition to the squad.
Obviously last season turned into a whole Berbatov v Tevez debate, and it was really stupid at times. Tevez didn't have a great season when Berbatov arrived, instead of thriving on the competition he seemed to see it as a sense of injustice which wasn't really the right attitude to have. It seemed a dead certainty that he would sign for us, as he made out and then from January onwards it started to look more and more bleak and that he wanted to leave. I've said this before and had people disagree with me but Tevez didn't have a great first season... Yes he was very good for us and turned out to be important but he had a lot of poor games. This was apparantly down to the fact that he didn't have much rest over the Summer and would be better once he came back fresh for the new season. He had a couple of good preseason games and then seemed to get the hump when Berbatov came in. Surely the thing to do would be to prove that you deserve a place in the line up? He didn't do that. The moment where in fairness I did feel for him was when he scored four against Blackburn in the league cup and then didn't play the following league game. He seemed to sulk a bit after that.
I don't think anyone will deny that Tevez was a good player but he was also inconsistent. He made up for it somewhat by scoring crucial goals in big games, something which Berbatov is yet to do.
Time will tell Johnno...
fergie tried to bring benz in.
if madrid was successful in getting in dabeed beeya, benzema would've been with us.
which means berba would've been berbashitting himself on the bench. I would like to see fergie build his attack this summer with what he had in mind last summer when he went for benzema.
if madrid was successful in getting in dabeed beeya, benzema would've been with us.
which means berba would've been berbashitting himself on the bench. I would like to see fergie build his attack this summer with what he had in mind last summer when he went for benzema.
Wow! Can't believe there's actually a guy compared Berbatov to Ronaldo. Let's him score 42 goals in one season before making any comparison will ya?
Maybe you should get a grasp of the conversation before commenting.
The way that Ronaldo was over rated in MOTM threads last season based on single moments of genius is very similar to Berbatov being over rated vs Wolves due to one flick.
Dont think weve had a player who divides opinion so much for years as Berbatov seems to....
I think it's because we can see the talent there and if he ever manages to make the step up in class he would truly be an incredible player, unfortuanetly he's been so inneffective that signing Crouch would have brought us the same return.
I'm a bit pissed off with Berbs at the moment.
His "single moments of genius" were 6 goals in matches against the other 3 of the top 4 in the premier league and against our opponents in the last 16 of the champions league.
Thats twice as many goals as any of our other players got in those, our biggest matches. Berbatov managed 1 - when we were already 2 goals up against Chelsea and they had crumbled... And so far this season has managed 0 goals in those matches.
That is why Ronaldo would sometimes get nominated for man of the match despite an indifferent performance. Because he was a match winner when we needed him to be and our biggest goal threat by a country mile. There were matches where, put simply, if Ronaldo didnt score, nobody was going to score.
Despite this he wasnt one of our most selected man of the match contenders.
Obviously given the fact we havent played last 16 opponents yet and Berbatov has only featured in 3 matches against "the big four" sides this season and one of those was a 4 minute cameo against Arsenal, I'm not stating his 0 total as a stick to beat him with. I'm just stating it to show that there hasnt been a vast improvement on last season's scoring against the good sides as if he had got 1 or 2 in his matches against Chelsea and Liverpool this season he'd have been doing very well in terms of goalscoring in the big matches. But no, that hasnt happened yet. Plenty of oppertunities left for him to do better than last season in this regard.
Different way too look at his contribution than me then. I give feck all about his price tag as long as the team is successful, having seen all the discussion about him here there really is little else to say. But to use Ronaldo's goals as a broomstick surely is a bit over the top?
As for housing evaluations, you don't get much for your money these days anyway
Levy's stubbornness that hiked the price, not to mention the deadline looming. We all agree he isn't a 30 mill. striker I'm sure. But who is anyway? I'm happy he joined, but I was extatic about Veron joining too so....
the simple fact is that that the team in successful DESPITE him being a part of it
Our results with him in the team are significantly better than our results without him, so you are talking out of your arse here...
- Status