Dimitar Berbatov | 2009/10 Performances

[Boss]

He came on and got involved in the game. Yes he missed the sitter, but he's never been a clinical 1 shot 1 goal type player. He needs a few chances to score a goal. He brings much more to the team than goals though. Of course, unless he's banging them in like Ruud, and running around like Tevez, he'll never be acknowledged by some.



Just answer me one question. When Berbatov starts, do we play better?
I didn't say it was the defining reason, I just posted up some stats.

Yeah nobody expects him to be like Ruud, but we do at least expect him to get the shot on target or am I demanding too much? He seemed to just bottle it more than anything else.

Do we play better with Berba in the team? It's subjective really, our 3-0 victory vs Everon, our thrashing of Portsmouth,West Ham, our win away to Wolfsberg,, Berba was not featured. Then again our home game to Wolfsberg he came on and lit the match on fire although disapeared in the second half, he featured in our 5-0 mauling of Wigan home and away so it's hard to really tell. We have played some great stuff also with Rooney up top on his own and at other times we haven't.

 

[kietotheworld]

Most of them are games where were we needed to win the midfield battle and opted for a third man i midfield instead of 2 up front. Berbatov up front on his own doesn't work. It doesn't really work with Rooney either, but he's just done it a lot more.

So why did we spend over £30m on him if he's completely unsuited to playing in our biggest games?

 

[B Cantona]

Just answer me one question. When Berbatov starts, do we play better?
I didn't say it was the defining reason, I just posted up some stats.

We should look better with Berbatov, given he's a first choice £30million centre forward, and our other forward options bar Rooney are two young lads struggling to break the first team, and Owen who's being consigned to a bit part despite his superior goal scoring record this season

I'm not convinced we have looked 'better' with Berbatov personally. I can point to games where we and he have been dire when he's started, and I can point to games where we've played very well and he hasn't started. I don't think he's been that impressive in the last two games either, but he scored two goals. Football eh!

The question is, if and when Fergie signs another top class forward, have Berbatov's performances been good enough to suggest he'll retain a starting spot? I wouldn't be convinced so. He needs to step it up a gear, as he clearly readily admits himself

 

[esmufc07]

But thats the point isn't it. When we had a formidible front 2, we wouldn't have had to drop a striker to play an extra man in midfield. We would have gone ahead and played 2 strikers like the CL finals of 2008.

Rooney and Berbatov is a formidable front two though. You have to give a striker, hell any player, at least one season to settle into the side and become used to the way we play. Holding a less than impressive first season against Berbatov, when the whole team was below par for the most part (incredible saying that considering what we achieved), is harsh. This season, when he's been fully fit, he's been one of our best players. Then he got himself a niggling injury, but he's still managaed to score a couple of goals.

The first half the season the team has been plagued by injuries, loss of form, and we've been unable to play a settled team, and settled tactics. I've no doubt as we had into the second half of the season with our injury worries easing, Berbatov will come into his own.

Ask yourself this question. Out of the 5 games we lost, do you think Berbatov would've made a difference if he had started? And don't deflect it by saying, oh but our midfield was poor then.

I think he would have done. The game against Chelsea was crying out for a moment of brilliance, something which Berbatov could have provided. If he'd have started, would we have bossed the midfield like we did? Who knows, it's all ifs and buts. Would we have won those games? I don't know.

 

[Boss]

So why did we spend over £30m on him if he's completely unsuited to playing in our biggest games?

My theory is that Berbatov is a man who needs time on the ball to shine, in these type of games there is literally no space/time to dwell or it will bypass you which is why I think Fergie does not trust him for them. People used to say the same things about Riquelme.

Sir Alex tried his luck with him at Anfield once again after dropping him for the latest big game in Arsenal but it was the same story as in his first season, he just does not seem to shine in them. He was too rushed to do things, I still remember when he was at the edge of the box and he was rushed into passing the ball into an opposition player and he looked out of ideas.

I remember last season when we played Liverpool at Anfield, he made a great assist for Tevez but after a crunching tackle from Jamie Carragah he just couldn't get into the game again what soever. It completely bypassed him.

It's also a reason why I think in some away fixtures or teams that close down every thing/very psychical (ie Aston Villa) Fergie chooses not to start him. There may be an underlying reason other than this but the way Ferguson drops him for big matches is really telling. Maybe Fergie didn't start him against Fulham because last season it was reported that he only touched the ball around 4 times before picking up his injury where he was subbed at half time.

If he doesn't feature against AC Milan I wouldn't even be surprised.

 

[esmufc07]

Yeah nobody expects him to be like Ruud, but we do at least expect him to get the shot on target or am I demanding too much? He seemed to just bottle it more than anything else.

I think some people expect him to be banging them in every week, despite the fact he's never been like that. I wonder just how many watched him before he came to United.

Every striker will not hit the target 100% of the time either. I'm pretty sure van Nistelrooy put it over a couple of times. Not what a £19m striker should be doing. No, no, no.

Do we play better with Berba in the team? It's subjective really, our 3-0 victory vs Everon, our thrashing of Portsmouth,West Ham, our win away to Wolfsberg,, Berba was not featured. Then again our home game to Wolfsberg he came on and lit the match on fire although disapeared in the second half, he featured in our 5-0 mauling of Wigan home and away so it's hard to really tell. We have played some great stuff also with Rooney up top on his own and at other times we haven't.

Our win away to Wolsburg was not a brilliant performance. We were just clinical and got lucky. Any other day we'd have lost that game just like we did against Villa and Fulham.

I'm not saying we never play well when he doesn't start, and I'm not saying we always play well when he does start, but generally, we look a lot more dangerous as a team and a lot more fluid as a team when he plays.

So why did we spend over £30m on him if he's completely unsuited to playing in our biggest games?

Maybe Fergie thought he was suited. I think a lack of quality in midfield hasn't helped Berbatov either.

 

[esmufc07]

We should look better with Berbatov, given he's a first choice £30million centre forward, and our other forward options bar Rooney are two young lads struggling to break the first team, and Owen who's being consigned to a bit part despite his superior goal scoring record this season

I'm not convinced we have looked 'better' with Berbatov personally. I can point to games where we and he have been dire when he's started, and I can point to games where we've played very well and he hasn't started. I don't think he's been that impressive in the last two games either, but he scored two goals. Football eh!

The question is, if and when Fergie signs another top class forward, have Berbatov's performances been good enough to suggest he'll retain a starting spot? I wouldn't be convinced so. He needs to step it up a gear, as he clearly readily admits himself

Depends who we're playing and what we're trying to do.

 

[esmufc07]

My theory is that Berbatov is a man who needs time on the ball to shine, in these type of games there is literally no space/time to dwell or it will bypass you which is why I think Fergie does not trust him for them. People used to say the same things about Riquelme.

Sir Alex tried his luck with him at Anfield once again after dropping him for the latest big game in Arsenal but it was the same story as in his first season, he just does not seem to shine in them. He was too rushed to do things, I still remember when he was at the edge of the box and he was rushed into passing the ball into an opposition player and he looked out of ideas.

I remember last season when we played Liverpool at Anfield, he made a great assist for Tevez but after a crunching tackle from Jamie Carragah he just couldn't get into the game again what soever. It completely bypassed him.

It's also a reason why I think in some away fixtures or teams that close down every thing/very psychical (ie Aston Villa) Fergie chooses not to start him. There may be an underlying reason other than this but the way Ferguson drops him for big matches is really telling. Maybe Fergie didn't start him against Fulham because last season it was reported that he only touched the ball around 4 times before picking up his injury where he was subbed at half time. If he doesn't feature against AC Milan I wouldn't even be surprised.

I have a feeling Berbatov will play up top in his own in that game, with Rooney on the left, Fletch/Anderson/Carrick in the middle and Valencia on the right.

 

[Sam]

Giggs---Rooney----Valencia

That'll be the front 3 against Milan. No way will Fergie not play Giggs (Injury permitting)

 

[Boss]

I have a feeling Berbatov will play up top in his own in that game, with Rooney on the left, Fletch/Anderson/Carrick in the middle and Valencia on the right.

Actually you're probably right, AC Milan do seem to play at a lot slower pace to the big games we see in the Premiership so it could be a perfect platform for Berba to shine. This is not the same powerful team that beat us in 2006 and allowed us no room to operate.

 

[Makki]

So why did we spend over £30m on him if he's completely unsuited to playing in our biggest games?

Because, despite what people think, the biggest games aren't those that win the league for a team? They're just (let's say we count the top four as the big games) 18 out of 114 points. That means, if you win all the other games you'll still rack up to a total of 96 points, which, if I'm not completely wrong, would be a point record in the 20 team Premier League.

Thing is that we can all agree that Rooney is the better player, so naturally Berbatov would be sacrificed when we need to pack the midfield, which is needed against the bigger teams. Or, put it this way, our £30m striker is put on the bench, when we play a necessary formation which only can have one striker, in favour of our £50m striker.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

That's not entirely true though is it? There was a point where we could have made a serious bid but our scouts did express some doubt about his finishing and whether he could score in the English league on a consistent basis. I'll have to dig up the source, but i'm sure I have heard / read that whoever advised SAF on Torres did express some doubts about him and that's perhaps why we didn't make a full fledged offer for him.

Nah! I highly doubt you will find any link backing up that claim. I doubt we as a club ever had doubts about him. Only our fans on this forum and in England did.

If IRC SAF said some where he tried 2 summers in a row to sign him and the fella didn't seem interested. With his love for his club or him being to young being used as excuse for him not to join us. Then when we didn't try due to getting tired of being spurned he accepted to go to Liverpool. Even in a player exchange deal....

Going to liverpool was always an option but i refuse to believe that had we really shown serious interest he would have turned us down. We had such a great team at that point surely common sense would have prevailed.

You are free to refuse.
As for me I have little doubts he didn't really want to come here.

 

[7even]

Giggs---Rooney----Valencia

That'll be the front 3 against Milan. No way will Fergie not play Giggs (Injury permitting)

Hey man! I'll go with that.

 

[kietotheworld]

Maybe Fergie thought he was suited. I think a lack of quality in midfield hasn't helped Berbatov either.

If he thought he was suited why doesn't he pick him in major games? If he's changed his mind, surely that suggests signing him was a mistake.

Because, despite what people think, the biggest games aren't those that win the league for a team? They're just (let's say we count the top four as the big games) 18 out of 114 points. That means, if you win all the other games you'll still rack up to a total of 96 points, which, if I'm not completely wrong, would be a point record in the 20 team Premier League.

Thing is that we can all agree that Rooney is the better player, so naturally Berbatov would be sacrificed when we need to pack the midfield, which is needed against the bigger teams. Or, put it this way, our £30m striker is put on the bench, when we play a necessary formation which only can have one striker, in favour of our £50m striker.

Yes, but if you are interested in winning the European Cup then you will have to play quite a lot of big games, and the current team doesn't look like doing that. Besides that, beating Liverpool is more important than simply winning 3 points, and embarrassments like the last two matches (where Berbatov was not picked and was shit respectively), are more important than dropping three points. Besides that, nobody beats every other team, no matter how good they are, it's virtually an unachievable aim, and not why we signed Berbatov.

 

[Name Changed]

Hmm, started in the Charity Shield against Chelsea, started against Liverpool, started against City. He didn't start against Arsenal, we were very fortunate to win, he didn't start against Chelsea, we lost. Burnley, Villa and Fulham were also games we lost in his absence. So he's started most of our 'toughest' games.

.

He'll most likely only start the 'toughest' games when we are missing other key players, rightly or wrongly. Previously when SAF has had his strongest team available for the big matches, they tend not to contain Berbatov.

 

[esmufc07]

Last Season he started against Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal away and Chelsea at home. He started both legs in the tie against Inter, and the second leg against Porto. He does start important games, not them all, but he certainly doesn't start in as few as people like to suggest.

 

[Boss]

Last Season he started against Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal away and Chelsea at home. He started both legs in the tie against Inter, and the second leg against Porto. He does start important games, not them all, but he certainly doesn't start in as few as people like to suggest.

When he came he started most of them, it was his underwhelming performances in the majority of them which lead to him being dropped later in the season which has carried on into this season despite the second chance at Anfield. That's my only explanation for this, he really couldn't insert his influence on the games.

 

[esmufc07]

When he came he started most of them, it was his underwhelming performances in the majority of them which lead to him being dropped later in the season which has carried on into this season despite the second chance at Anfield. That's my only explanation for this, he really couldn't insert his influence on the games.

The whole team was abject against Liverpool at Anfield. And having neither Fletcher nor Anderson in the middle of the park didn't help matters at all.

Last season the whole team struggled in the big games. Aside from the 2 legs against Arsenal in the CL and the home win over Chelsea, we were poor in all of them.

 

[Boss]

The whole team was abject against Liverpool at Anfield. And having neither Fletcher nor Anderson in the middle of the park didn't help matters at all.

Last season the whole team struggled in the big games. Aside from the 2 legs against Arsenal in the CL and the home win over Chelsea, we were poor in all of them.

Regardless of how the whole team performed, all I'm saying is that if Berba had played well in these I doubt he would be getting dropped for the big games after his initial run.

He would have started against Arsenal in the CL and the Champions League Final. It seems Sir Alex just doesn't trust him for them. I think at Anfield this season was a chance to make a point but the intensity and pace Liverpool played at seemed too much for him. Even if the whole team don't play well, why aren't others key players being dropped?

 

[Name Changed]

Last Season he started against Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal away and Chelsea at home. He started both legs in the tie against Inter, and the second leg against Porto. He does start important games, not them all, but he certainly doesn't start in as few as people like to suggest.

I can't remember if we had a full team available for those games, but I highly doubt it.

We had our full team available for the CL final, apart from Fletcher and Hargreaves. Berbatov did not play. In fact, he was only brought on close to the end, Tevez was preferred. He didn't start the semi finals. In the rest of those matches, I'm fairly sure we had players missing. If SAF was going to pick his first XI tomorrow for a big match, I'd bet that Berbatov wasn't in it. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is a separate issue.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There will always be games when SAF opts to play with a lone striker. Those games will usually come against tough opposition. When this happens, chances are he'll go with Rooney, with him being our best player an' all.

Last season it was Ronaldo getting the nod, with Rooney sacrificed out wide and Berbatov another notch down the pecking order.

This is, of course, not a slight on Berbatov. It's just picking a team to suit the occasion and ensuring that Rooney/Ronaldo start. If people expect Berbatov to surpass those two in the pecking order up front then it's no wonder they're disappointed.

To his credit, Berbatov has never whinged about this and accepts rotation with good grace. Is it too much to ask to give him some credit for this, as opposed to using it as yet another stick to eat him with?

 

[Name Changed]

Well there is nothing wrong about being second choice to Rooney when it comes to being selected as a lone striker.

 

[esmufc07]

Regardless of how the whole team performed, all I'm saying is that if Berba had played well in these I doubt he would be getting dropped for the big games after his initial run.

He would have started against Arsenal in the CL and the Champions League Final. It seems Sir Alex just doesn't trust him for them. I think at Anfield this season was a chance to make a point but the intensity and pace Liverpool played at seemed too much for him. Even if the whole team don't play well, why aren't others key players being dropped?

As I mentioned before, in the tougher games we will often look to boss the midfield and go with a middle 3, meaning one of the strikers has to be dropped. It's not going to be Rooney, so it's Berbatov. That doesn't mean Fergie doesn't 'trust him', just that that's how we'll play in the big games.

Problem is, Berbatov really isn't an impact player who can come off the bench mid-way through the second half and change the game. He usually needs time to feel his way into a game. I'd rather have Rooney on the left and Berbatov up front in the big matches myself, but then I'm not the most successful manager in the world

 

[Wan]

So why did we spend over £30m on him if he's completely unsuited to playing in our biggest games?

It's not that he's not suited, it just mean that SAF feels better if we play with a 451/433 in the big games, which means he misses out.

Just because we spent a lot of money on him or anyone, doesn't mean they would play all the time, or have to play in certain type of games to justify the spending.

What if we have three 30m strikers? Do we play all of them together in the big games? But what about our 20m midfielders? We have Ando, Carrick, Valencia, Nani, Hargreaves who fit the bill. Play them all? Don't be an idiot.

 

[Boss]

As I mentioned before, in the tougher games we will often look to boss the midfield and go with a middle 3, meaning one of the strikers has to be dropped. It's not going to be Rooney, so it's Berbatov. That doesn't mean Fergie doesn't 'trust him', just that that's how we'll play in the big games.

Problem is, Berbatov really isn't an impact player who can come off the bench mid-way through the second half and change the game. He usually needs time to feel his way into a game. I'd rather have Rooney on the left and Berbatov up front in the big matches myself, but then I'm not the most successful manager in the world

This is all true, I just can not help but feel that if Berbatov had performed better in such games that Sir Alex would not have found a way to make things work with him featuring in the side.

Why would Sir Alex look into getting Benzema in the Summer if he's fully convinced Berbatov is the man for the job?

 

[esmufc07]

This is all true, I just can not help but feel that if Berbatov had performed better in such games that Sir Alex would not have found a way to make things work with him featuring in the side.

Why would Sir Alex look into getting Benzema in the Summer if he's fully convinced Berbatov is the man for the job?

Sir Alex has always talked about having 4 quality strikers at the club and cites it as a reason for winning the treble. As it stands we have 3.

 

[Boss]

Sir Alex has always talked about having 4 quality strikers at the club and cites it as a reason for winning the treble. As it stands we have 3.

Is it fair to suggest if we had bought Benzema he would have played the majority of the games with Rooney rather than Berba?

 

[esmufc07]

If's, but's, maybe's - who knows

 

[Boss]

Sir Alex knows....Que X files music

 

[kietotheworld]

Last Season he started against Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal away and Chelsea at home. He started both legs in the tie against Inter, and the second leg against Porto. He does start important games, not them all, but he certainly doesn't start in as few as people like to suggest.

Against Liverpool we got beat, against Chelsea away we drew, against Arsenal we got beat, against Chelsea at home we won, fair play, but they were awful. When we played Arsenal away later in the season without Berbatov we crucified them. He was probably dropped for the later major games because he'd been shit in most of the earlier ones.

 

[esmufc07]

Against Liverpool we got beat

We also got beat much more heavily at Old Trafford - when he didn't play

against Chelsea away we drew

Very unlucky not to win that day, a late equaliser by Kalou if I remember correctly.

against Arsenal we got beat

Fair enough.

against Chelsea at home we won, fair play, but they were awful

.

Ah, so when we do completely outclass a team and he plays, it's because they were awful! You really can't win with some people.

When we played Arsenal away later in the season without Berbatov we crucified them

.

Right, we beat Chelsea comfortably but that's because they were awful, we beat Arsenal comfortably and it's because we crucified them? Didn't they play awful? Tactics all over the show?

He was probably dropped for the later major games because he'd been shit in most of the earlier ones.

He was shit, but the rest of the team weren't, right?

 

[kietotheworld]

We also got beat much more heavily at Old Trafford - when he didn't play

We had only 10 players for a much higher proportion of that game. When he came on the score was only 2-1.

Very unlucky not to win that day, a late equaliser by Kalou if I remember correctly.

Why is the fact it's late considered bad luck?

Ah, so when we do completely outclass a team and he plays, it's because they were awful! You really can't win with some people.

Do you disagree that they were awful?

Right, we beat Chelsea comfortably but that's because they were awful, we beat Arsenal comfortably and it's because we crucified them? Didn't they play awful? Tactics all over the show?

Our performance at the Emirates in the Semi Final was better than our performance in November in every aspect after Ferguson chose to put a winger upfront instead of our £30m striker. Maybe it was because of bad tactics from Arsenal, maybe it was because they were in a difficult position after the first leg, maybe it was just a coincidence but the performance was indisputably better than the November one, we were more threatening, defended better despite only having 10 players for much of the game.

He was shit, but the rest of the team weren't, right?

This is the Berbatov thread, where Berbatov's performances are judged. You can start a 'the team apart from Berbatov in big games last season' if you like and we can discuss it there.

 

[esmufc07]

We had only 10 players for a much higher proportion of that game. When he came on the score was only 2-1.

Your point?

Why is the fact it's late considered bad luck?

I said we were unlucky, the timing of the goal has nothing to do with it.

Do you disagree that they were awful?

They were awful, but we made them look it. Berbatov was part of that.

Our performance at the Emirates in the Semi Final was better than our performance in November in every aspect after Ferguson chose to put a winger upfront instead of our £30m striker. Maybe it was because of bad tactics from Arsenal, maybe it was because they were in a difficult position after the first leg, maybe it was just a coincidence but the performance was indisputably better than the November one, we were more threatening, defended better despite only having 10 players for much of the game.

Do you disagree that they were awful?

This is the Berbatov thread, where Berbatov's performances are judged. You can start a 'the team apart from Berbatov in big games last season' if you like and we can discuss it there.

Don't get sarcy with me sonny.

 

[kietotheworld]

Your point?

Our defeat can't be put down to Berbatov's absence. Particularly given that after he came on, we didn't score any more goals and conceded two more

I said we were unlucky, the timing of the goal has nothing to do with it.

In what respect were we unlucky?

They were awful, but we made them look it. Berbatov was part of that.

Vidic, Giggs and Evans were the best players. Ronaldo also scored two legitimate goals which were ruled out. Berbatov didn't play particularly well.

Do you disagree that they were awful?

Yes, 'awful' is a harsh description. They were threatening at the start until they were blown away.

Don't get sarcy with me sonny.

The 'everybody else was bad too!' excuse doesn't hold water with me. It's a legitimate criticism of everybody else, but it's not a valid defence of anybody.

 

[esmufc07]

Our defeat can't be put down to Berbatov's absence. Particularly given that after he came on, we didn't score any more goals and conceded two more

And likewise defeat at Anfield can't be put down to Berbatov starting.

In what respect were we unlucky?

I thought we were the better team, had a few good chances to consolidate our lead which we failed to do.

Vidic, Giggs and Evans were the best players. Ronaldo also scored two legitimate goals which were ruled out. Berbatov didn't play particularly well.

Berbatov also scored.

Yes, 'awful' is a harsh description. They were threatening at the start until they were blown away.

They were blown away 10 minutes in.

The 'everybody else was bad too!' excuse doesn't hold water with me. It's a legitimate criticism of everybody else, but it's not a valid defence of anybody.

Pharaoh-nuff.

 

[B Cantona]

Bah stop multi quoting a line at a time, it's awful to look at!

 

[kietotheworld]

And likewise defeat at Anfield can't be put down to Berbatov starting.

Why not? We hadn't even conceded a goal there in the last 3 matches, and had won the last 2. After the first 10 minutes he did nothing for United's cause.

I thought we were the better team, had a few good chances to consolidate our lead which we failed to do.

Hmm...failure to convert chances, that sounds like a good finisher would have been the correct player to sign. Chelsea also had some good chance for what it's worth.

Berbatov also scored.

Yes he did, completely unmarked after Vidic had obstructed his marker.

They were blown away 10 minutes in.

That doesn't change the fact we were brilliant, and while they were essentially out of it 10 minutes in, they still didn't play particularly badly. Obviously they were a bit shocked following our devastating 5 minute spell, but that shouldn't take away from how great United were that night.

 

[kietotheworld]

Bah stop multi quoting a line at a time,

It's easier to address different points.

it's awful to look at!

I don't think it's that bad.

 

[B Cantona]

Evening Elvis

 

[esmufc07]

I wasn't actually expecting you to come

Err, yeah. So Berbatov's been good. Or something.