Declan Rice

[Wednesday at Stoke]

He's the las player any team with attacking ambition should be looking for in midfield. He makes McTominay look like Carrick.

 

[cyberman]

This is the buy Declan Rice theory and it might be right but there are a few question marks about its validity.

1, All the other players we have tried to play along side Pogba in center midfield have struggled badly to cover the back four. It might be that Fred, McT and Matic are all so bad at it that getting in Rice proves to be the solution . You have to say though that there is also a good chance that the job of covering the space for Pogba just isn't possible.

2, Pogba is probably leaving in the summer, so spending 80+ million pounds right now on a player to get the best out of the 90 million pound player who is likely/wants to bugger off would seem to be a tad too late.

Discounting the first 3, legless games, we have conceded 11 goals from open play in the league. We protect our back 4, its set pieces and creativity when Pogba isnt there thats the problem. Rice doesnt solve either of those

 

[Kostov]

True, but age only protects you for a certain amount of time until you need to show proof of talent - something I've never heard or seen from Rice. Shaw was a good scouted purchase back in 20xx and he underperformed/was injured for a while and now is in his bloom.

But I should have said for £80m range people are talking about, he shows nothing but age. At a more realistic £40-50m, I think it would be a good signing, but we need to dump a lot of midfielders for it to make sense: Fred, McT, Jones, Matic, Mata, Lingard (not all, but some) and then decide how we want to build the midfield. I'd love to see a mobile DMF (a mix of McT and Fred, but with improved passing, or a player like Kante, etc) with Pogba. But I feel Rice is technically limited in comparison to his DMF peers on the continent and we'd find the same issues we current have with McFred

I've taken a little more interest in the Irons as they're local to me, and what I've seen of Rice is that he has talent yes, age is on his side, but paying £80m+ for something that we haven't even had a glance of yet is not wise. Unfortunately as usual we need to look to European or African players for that type of player who would have the total skillset and leaner price

He absolutely isn't worth that kind of money, I don't even want to entertain the idea, but I am not sure what kind of proof of talent do you want to be fair. He isn't and never will be Michael Carrick, but as a CDM destroyer with a solid passing range I think he has demonstrated a good level already and will only improve.

Add to that, the moment we might find a new Michael Carrick, we can always play him as a CB, which will also suit him imo.

 

[passing-wind]

Reiterated this point before it depends what purpose he serves in the squad. If it's for the team to continue with a double pivot midfield I don't see the point. If however it allows Ole to use the same 4-3-3 as during the interim period (Herrera, Matic, Pogba) then it would give us more control in possession throughout the central areas.

Fred / Mctomminay works because of balance, it's not reflective because of the quality they bring to the table. I feel in order for Solskjaer to get the team to play better football he needs to walk away from the 4-2-3-1.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No I mean there were posters on here claiming that Shaw was never talented, he was only young and english therfor why we bought him. I am not also saying Rice is as talented, but the kid is playing first team CDM in a PL team, how many seasons in a row? He is clearly talented, but of course not worth 80m pounds.

Ah fair enough, yeah Shaw was written off way too early considering his leg actually broke in half, no doubt.
Agree on Rice, the fact that he’d cost blockbuster money is why he’ll be at West Ham for a few more years at least. He’s not that talented for any club to go that big on him.

 

[simplyared]

Best DM in the PL imo. Not his best game against us but showed glipses of his class. Reckon he's the player we're looking for.

 

[youngrell]

If you were to describe Rice as a player, or his strengths as a player, i.e, covers ground well, protects the back four with good blocks and tackling, and solid enough in possession, does that sound like someone worth £80m?

No it doesn't.

If that's the profile of player you are looking for, it can be obtained at a fraction of the cost elsewhere. These are the simplest qualities required to play in midfield and £80m, even in today's market, should be buying you star men in midfield.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

He's a decent player but a) he isn't worth the amount that West Ham would want for him and b) you'd probably get a cheaper option that would be just as good/if not better on the continent somewhere with a bit of scouting (basically just have to find the next Ndidi)

 

[golden_blunder]

I like Rice as a player, but adding another defensive minded midfielder who isn't creative will not be happening this summer.

The price will be so high, I would say he will be going nowhere.

By adding Rice though you could play Pogba & Bruno together or against top teams you could add a b2b like McTominay alongside him + Bruno or Pogba.

or potentially we could see the best of Donnie alongside Bruno with rice protecting them.

so by adding him it’s not necessarily a move that is only defensive

price would be prohibitive though

 

[The Irish Connection]

What did people think of him yesterday?

He was good I thought, their best player.

 

[golden_blunder]

If you were to describe Rice as a player, or his strengths as a player, i.e, covers ground well, protects the back four with good blocks and tackling, and solid enough in possession, does that sound like someone worth £80m?

No it doesn't.

If that's the profile of player you are looking for, it can be obtained at a fraction of the cost elsewhere. These are the simplest qualities required to play in midfield and £80m, even in today's market, should be buying you star men in midfield.

I’ll caveat this by saying I don’t think any player is worth 80m

but I think you downplay what you get from him.
First of all you haven’t mentioned his leadership qualities. 2-3 seasons ago we struggled to name 1 leader in the United team.
secondly he’s a much better passer than given credit for.
Thirdly, it would mean the end of mcFred. We could for example play Pogba with Bruno and rice protecting.
the fact that he is proven in the PL against the big teams is a bonus.
his flexibility cb-DCM-cm would allow us more tactical flexibility.
he’s young and improving, he can only get better around better quality players

 

[RUCK4444]

I honestly don’t see what people see in this lad.

He is a basic DM. He was one of their better players yesterday but that’s not saying much with how negative they were.

Didn’t exactly look great and again looked nowhere near as good as the supposed price tag, which is what I see from him most weeks. Culminating in him placing the ball row Z in one of their last attacks.

I just look at him and think he’s a level below even McTominay (as an example.). Scott when in form and on it is a better player imo.

 

[poleglass red]

If you were to describe Rice as a player, or his strengths as a player, i.e, covers ground well, protects the back four with good blocks and tackling, and solid enough in possession, does that sound like someone worth £80m?

No it doesn't.

If that's the profile of player you are looking for, it can be obtained at a fraction of the cost elsewhere. These are the simplest qualities required to play in midfield and £80m, even in today's market, should be buying you star men in midfield.

is 80 mill still the number being thrown around. Possibly pre covid they could have asked for that, now, no chance anyone pays anything close to that. They either needs to severely drop their price, or he's staying there for the forseeable. He's a decent player, potential to be very good and he's probably what we need, in that he could play that DM role on his own allowing another more creative player to help out Bruno.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Best DM in the PL imo. Not his best game against us but showed glipses of his class. Reckon he's the player we're looking for.

He's not even better than Bissouma.

 

[youngrell]

I’ll caveat this by saying I don’t think any player is worth 80m

but I think you downplay what you get from him.
First of all you haven’t mentioned his leadership qualities. 2-3 seasons ago we struggled to name 1 leader in the United team.
secondly he’s a much better passer than given credit for.
Thirdly, it would mean the end of mcFred. We could for example play Pogba with Bruno and rice protecting.
the fact that he is proven in the PL against the big teams is a bonus.
his flexibility cb-DCM-cm would allow us more tactical flexibility.
he’s young and improving, he can only get better around better quality players

I agree he seems to have a very good attitude and of course is PL ready, which goes in his favour, but I stand by the point that a player of his profile are quite easy to come by and should be nowhere near £80m in value.

We are not even sure Ole wants to play in that way, so that part is pure conjecture (unless I've missed something), and spending a whack on a solid player to allow freedom to others seems a bit excessive, IMO.

 

[youngrell]

is 80 mill still the number being thrown around. Possibly pre covid they could have asked for that, now, no chance anyone pays anything close to that. They either needs to severely drop their price, or he's staying there for the forseeable. He's a decent player, potential to be very good and he's probably what we need, in that he could play that DM role on his own allowing another more creative player to help out Bruno.

It's probably still the price because ultimately I imagine WH do not want to sell him. Covid only strengthens their position to hold on, probably.

 

[balaks]

I've never seen what the fuss is about with Rice - looks a very average player to me if I'm honest.

 

[Bwuk]

He's not even better than Bissouma.

Yes he is and comfortably so.

He's not worth the 80m West Ham would demand though.

 

[Gerald G]

He is so basic. I don't get the hype. He's a decent player but it just seems to stop there. The good thing about him is that he's young so he can probably improve on the ball, but I just don't really get the hype.

If he played in a team that dominated possession for most matches then I think he'd actually look worse. He has potential to grow as I've mentioned but to blow £60m - £80m on him now would very much be insane in my view.

 

[red4ever 79]

If he moves will more than likely go to Chelsea. Good player with potential to improve. Picks up some decent positions screening the back 4, but would need to improve on his passing range. An upgrade on McTom thats for sure.

 

[balaks]

Best DM in the PL imo. Not his best game against us but showed glipses of his class. Reckon he's the player we're looking for.

Hojbjerg is better.

 

[AgentSmith]

Rice only makes sense as a player to try and fit Pogba and Bruno into the same midfield.

It’s a pointless signing if we’re going to play McTominay or Fred next to him.

We’d have the exact same problems in that scenario that we had against Sheffield United, WBA, Palace etc.

 

[bond19821982]

Overrated and overpriced. Just spent that money a player like Tielemans, who can pass from deep.

 

[Idxomer]

Hojbjerg is better.

Both are average.

 

[dinostar77]

He's a CDM with potential. Determined, mentally strong. A leader on the pitch. Also offers tactical flexiblility if you want him to drop into defence or step out of it. I like him but not at WH money i.e £60-£80mil.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Yes he is and comfortably so.

He's not worth the 80m West Ham would demand though.

He really isn't. You've been swept up by the London hype I'm afraid my good man.

There's a reason Chelsea wouldn't touch him with a barge pole when their manager and best player were practically crying for him to join. He's just not all that.

 

[Bwuk]

He really isn't. You've been swept up by the London hype I'm afraid my good man.

There's a reason Chelsea wouldn't touch him with a barge pole when their manager and best player were practically crying for him to join. He's just not all that.

If Lampard was still at Chelsea they'd of signed him this summer.

 

[Floyd]

To me it seems like he's playing under strict instructions from his manager, almost as a third CB, holding it all together.

I think he really could blossom if unleashed as a conventional no 6. Holding yes, but with permission go to forward as he sees fit.

I really like the player and he could be a mainstay here for 10 years as a no 6.

But it's all moot anyway because he will be way to expensive. His contract expires 2024, but West Ham have an option of extending further 12 months, which they obviously will, he will have to run down his contract until 2024 to become buyable.

 

[FrankWhite]

If you were to describe Rice as a player, or his strengths as a player, i.e, covers ground well, protects the back four with good blocks and tackling, and solid enough in possession, does that sound like someone worth £80m?

No it doesn't.

If that's the profile of player you are looking for, it can be obtained at a fraction of the cost elsewhere. These are the simplest qualities required to play in midfield and £80m, even in today's market, should be buying you star men in midfield.

We paid £50 million for Fred and he can't do that! Rice is much better on the ball than Fred.
The disrespect Rice is getting on this thread after the last game is insane considering he didn't even play badly and looked decent when Moyes decided to actually play football. Not saying he's worth £80 million but I wouldn't be mad at £50 million + Lingard.

 

[eire-red]

He just doesn't do it for me. For the quoted price, we're basically getting a player that would do the dirty work and hopefully be a good foil for Pogba.

For me, that's not enough. He doesn't offer any more creativity or ability than Fred and McTominay. It's just because he's young and English.

There's no way I would prioritise Rice as a big money signing when you could definitely find a less known option for half the price. He just wouldn't be a difference maker, which is what you would expect for the kind of prices quoted.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

By adding Rice though you could play Pogba & Bruno together or against top teams you could add a b2b like McTominay alongside him + Bruno or Pogba.

or potentially we could see the best of Donnie alongside Bruno with rice protecting them.

so by adding him it’s not necessarily a move that is only defensive

price would be prohibitive though

OK, I get that in theory, but you would think that if that was going to work then there would be some signs of it working when we play them with Matic or Fred holding. We play Mc Fred because it didn't look like working at all. I accept Rice is better defensively but is he going to be able to hold down a midfield with Donny and Bruno?

I have my doubts if I am honest.

We would end up playing Rice and Mct and everyone screaming about our lack of creativity for the next five years.

Wouldn't it just be easier to buy a Pogba replacment who is really good with the ball and quick and disciplined enough to play center midfield?

 

[babsk]

He can do McTominay and Freds job and lets us play Bruno and Pogba as 8s further up the pitch. Should definitely be looking into him he's only going to get better imo

 

[youngrell]

We paid £50 million for Fred and he can't do that! Rice is much better on the ball than Fred.
The disrespect Rice is getting on this thread after the last game is insane considering he didn't even play badly and looked decent when Moyes decided to actually play football. Not saying he's worth £80 million but I wouldn't be mad at £50 million + Lingard.

Overpaying for one player doesn't mean we have to do so again.

And I think you're massively exaggerating if you think Rice is much better on the ball than Fred. There's very little between them either way.

We paid what, £40m for Matic when he was near his prime? That is the level you'd want to spend on someone who just cleans up for the other midfielders. You'd expect far more for double that price.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Sancho in one thread, Haaland in another, and Rice here. Come on guys, it will only be one of these players.

 

[golden_blunder]

OK, I get that in theory, but you would think that if that was going to work then there would be some signs of it working when we play them with Matic or Fred holding. We play Mc Fred because it didn't look like working at all. I accept Rice is better defensively but is he going to be able to hold down a midfield with Donny and Bruno?

I have my doubts if I am honest.

We would end up playing Rice and Mct and everyone screaming about our lack of creativity for the next five years.

Wouldn't it just be easier to buy a Pogba replacment who is really good with the ball and quick and disciplined enough to play center midfield?

Sure, name a decent version

 

[Judas]

If he moves will more than likely go to Chelsea. Good player with potential to improve. Picks up some decent positions screening the back 4, but would need to improve on his passing range. An upgrade on McTom thats for sure.

They refuse to sign him in the summer, why would that change? The club don't want to be seen to be going back and buying someone they already let go. He isn't a Tuchel player.

 

[Adam-Utd]

If Lampard was still at Chelsea they'd of signed him this summer.

Nope, Chelsea refused him last summer.

 

[kundalini]

I’ll caveat this by saying I don’t think any player is worth 80m

but I think you downplay what you get from him.
First of all you haven’t mentioned his leadership qualities. 2-3 seasons ago we struggled to name 1 leader in the United team.
secondly he’s a much better passer than given credit for.
Thirdly, it would mean the end of mcFred. We could for example play Pogba with Bruno and rice protecting.
the fact that he is proven in the PL against the big teams is a bonus.
his flexibility cb-DCM-cm would allow us more tactical flexibility.
he’s young and improving, he can only get better around better quality players

Rice cannot protect Pogba in the way you describe, because of the way our team is set-up. Rashford rarely tracks back, which means that Fred is the player that goes across whenever the opposing right-back comes forward. If you've replaced Fred + McTominay, with Rice and Pogba, you now have Rice going across, which is fine, but leaves you with Pogba protecting the central zone infront of our area, which isn't remotely fine, because he has a track-record of making poor decisions in our defensive third, conceding stupid penalties, failing to track runners etc.

If you change the system so that Pogba covers the left-side and Fernandes the right side, you have the problem that both have been guilty of conceding stupid penalties this season and costing us goals by failing to track runners as happened against Brighton, Spurs and Arsenal. Declan Rice could put in a perfect performance and we'd still concede goals because Pogba and Fernandes aren't suited to performing defensive tasks near our goal. Of the 7 penalties we've conceded in the PL since the beginning of last season, Pogba (who has played about half the mins) has been responsible for 3 of them and Fernandes 1.

Declan Rice is a very good player but he simply cannot do the job that McTominay + Fred do together. If you want to play Rice + Pogba, you need Rashford to track back, you probably need to keep one full-back deep rather than pushing both forward. Ideally, you'd replace Maguire with a fast CB so we could hold a higher line.

If you look at the distance covered stats, it becomes even more obvious that taking Fred and McTominay (typically 2nd + 3rd behind Fernandes) out of the team, requires other players to cover more ground than they do at the moment. If Fernandes has to drop deeper in a 4-3-3, then he's already close to the limit of how far he can run, so he will have less energy to get into the opposing box. Pogba has consistently covered significantly less ground than other midfielders.

 

[Devil may care]

He's not great on the ball, good stopper though, but he's so overpriced that I don't see anybody going for him until his contract runs down a bit. Personally I'm not that keen on him as I want more on the ball.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Sure, name a decent version

Camavinga ?

If you are paying 80 million there have to be genuine top line center midfielders around for that money. If we end up with Rice then I hope you are right and it works out.