Declan Rice

Status
Not open for further replies.
The other thing i notice is that Rice doesn't play the way he plays against City the way he did against clubs like Sevilla or Lyon.

He plays in different ways depending on who the opposition is due to both managerial, team and opposition tactic on how they play.
 
Last edited:
Fortitude said:
Still see no evidence this guy can play good football in an expansive team who are looking to suffocate the opposition.
Click to expand...

Good post, agree with almost all of that. Biggest obstacle in signing him is money, it doesn't make sense to pay so much money for Rice.

Regarding the point I quoted, we can say this if he plays in expansive team and failed isn't it? He plays for Moyes who is all about contain and counter attack.

I also read few posts saying how he should take control of the team, IMO they all miss the key point. Player won't be controlling it, it's the tactical set up that controls it. That' the reason any midfield Pep plays, they dominate the game. I checked Rodri history, he always had high completion individually but his team always gave away possession, they averaged 49% possession in 2018-19. He signed for City and they average over 60% possession. He played for Villarreal before, they averaged just 52% possession.

I checked one of their game stats, in game vs Dortmund, Rodri played just 48 passes at home, in the same game Witsel - 84 passes and Delaney - 78 passes. In the same season vs Barca, he played just 49 passes while players like Busquets and Arthur played 90 and 77 passes.

Atletico lost midfield battle not because of Rodri or any players, it was their set up. Likewise, City don't dominate midfield not because of Rodri, it's the way they set up.

It's bit all over the place, point is unless these players play in the system that is designed to dominate, it's very harsh to say they can't control midfield based on their performance in counter attacking set up. Saying all that, I wouldn't sign Rice as he cost way too much. It's not worth it. He has skillset to play to be very good player, he has everything in his locker IMO.
 
roonster09 said:
Good post, agree with almost all of that. Biggest obstacle in signing him is money, it doesn't make sense to pay so much money for Rice.

Regarding the point I quoted, we can say this if he plays in expansive team and failed isn't it? He plays for Moyes who is all about contain and counter attack.

I also read few posts saying how he should take control of the team, IMO they all miss the key point. Player won't be controlling it, it's the tactical set up that controls it. That' the reason any midfield Pep plays, they dominate the game. I checked Rodri history, he always had high completion individually but his team always gave away possession, they averaged 49% possession in 2018-19. He signed for City and they average over 60% possession. He played for Villarreal before, they averaged just 52% possession.

I checked one of their game stats, in game vs Dortmund, Rodri played just 48 passes at home, in the same game Witsel - 84 passes and Delaney - 78 passes. In the same season vs Barca, he played just 49 passes while players like Busquets and Arthur played 90 and 77 passes.

Atletico lost midfield battle not because of Rodri or any players, it was their set up. Likewise, City don't dominate midfield not because of Rodri, it's the way they set up.

It's bit all over the place, point is unless these players play in the system that is designed to dominate, it's very harsh to say they can't control midfield based on their performance in counter attacking set up. Saying all that, I wouldn't sign Rice as he cost way too much. It's not worth it. He has skillset to play to be very good player, he has everything in his locker IMO.
Click to expand...

Very good post. I personally don't think Rice is the best midfielder to ever walk the earth, but he has loads of quality's you would look for in a player that is supposed to play the role he is. And in my book we really need such a player, because there is not a single player in our team who is good at what Rice does for teams. He could be our Rodri or Fabinho, not the most exciting players in the team but vital to the stability of every good midfield. Of course 150mil is not the kind of money you will pay for that kind of midfielder but Moyes and West Ham know that, it's their way of saying "He is not for sale."
 
NoLogo said:
Very good post. I personally don't think Rice is the best midfielder to ever walk the earth, but he has loads of quality's you would look for in a player that is supposed to play the role he is. And in my book we really need such a player, because there is not a single player in our team who is good at what Rice does for teams. He could be our Rodri or Fabinho, not the most exciting players in the team but vital to the stability of every good midfield. Of course 150mil is not the kind of money you will pay for that kind of midfielder but Moyes and West Ham know that, it's their way of saying "He is not for sale."
Click to expand...

Yeah, he is very important player for them, so they will ask for big money. We should sign players like him/Fabinho/Rodri for good fee instead of breaking the bank. Rodri also cost big money but that was at least at lower end compared to what we have to pay for Rice.

Hopefully we are looking for targets from all over the world to identify the player with these attributes.
 
roonster09 said:
Good post, agree with almost all of that. Biggest obstacle in signing him is money, it doesn't make sense to pay so much money for Rice.

Regarding the point I quoted, we can say this if he plays in expansive team and failed isn't it? He plays for Moyes who is all about contain and counter attack.

I also read few posts saying how he should take control of the team, IMO they all miss the key point. Player won't be controlling it, it's the tactical set up that controls it. That' the reason any midfield Pep plays, they dominate the game. I checked Rodri history, he always had high completion individually but his team always gave away possession, they averaged 49% possession in 2018-19. He signed for City and they average over 60% possession. He played for Villarreal before, they averaged just 52% possession.

I checked one of their game stats, in game vs Dortmund, Rodri played just 48 passes at home, in the same game Witsel - 84 passes and Delaney - 78 passes. In the same season vs Barca, he played just 49 passes while players like Busquets and Arthur played 90 and 77 passes.

Atletico lost midfield battle not because of Rodri or any players, it was their set up. Likewise, City don't dominate midfield not because of Rodri, it's the way they set up.

It's bit all over the place, point is unless these players play in the system that is designed to dominate, it's very harsh to say they can't control midfield based on their performance in counter attacking set up. Saying all that, I wouldn't sign Rice as he cost way too much. It's not worth it. He has skillset to play to be very good player, he has everything in his locker IMO.
Click to expand...
There's nearly always a certain slickness and comfort with the ball in Spanish DM's, but obviously greater dividing lines come about when we add all factors that make a good or great DM: positional awareness; decision making; confidence under pressure; instinct (where many get accused of hiding, when in actuality, it's taking them that bit too long to process what's going on and what they should be doing at that precise moment.) and so on and so forth. But by and large, you watch them and the technical acumen is so intrinsic, you don't really give it a second thought unless they are exceptionally good with the ball, you also know every one of them with NT aspirations are aware of the demands that will be placed upon them so even if they play in a negative or lower-possession based team, to make the step up to NT, they have to be able to do a lot more.

Perhaps this is even an extra feather in the cap for them because it would show versatility and eclectic traits that move them from system-based to universal. I've been high on their DM's for quite some time and wondered how they've not been plundered for talent, tbh. Javi Martinez was the perfect Carrick successor for me, for example, and they have a stream of these DM's that quietly do their job with no plaudits who, even at base ends would be very good additions to higher placed teams, if not as starters then in the rotation. More important, they are cheap!

I get your main point, but I trust the base fundamentals of those raised and honed in the art to switch systems more plus, the risk is reduced because they don't cost anything like what Rice is touted for. I've not seen it in him where I look at his technical base or mentality and think he'll thrive in a team that hurts the opposition and dominates the play. Even when taking time out and watching him intently, I'm not seeing 'it'; if I was scouting for like-minded, bigger teams than West Ham, I'd be of the opposite opinion, as I'm seeing a lot in him that would thrive in that kind of set up, so it's not about him being a bad player, just not what I think comes as default from aforementioned nations, or players raised in specific leagues.
 
roonster09 said:
Yeah, he is very important player for them, so they will ask for big money. We should sign players like him/Fabinho/Rodri for good fee instead of breaking the bank. Rodri also cost big money but that was at least at lower end compared to what we have to pay for Rice.

Hopefully we are looking for targets from all over the world to identify the player with these attributes.
Click to expand...

Well if we don't, look at other options we are acting highly irresponsible, never a good idea to put all your eggs into one basket. What would also be highly irresponsible is waiting for Rice to come next year and getting no one in to play this role this summer, especially with Matic leaving. Kamara now and then try to go for Rice again next summer or the summer after when he has only one year left on his contract.
 
Fortitude said:
There's nearly always a certain slickness and comfort with the ball in Spanish DM's, but obviously greater dividing lines come about when we add all factors that make a good or great DM: positional awareness; decision making; confidence under pressure; instinct (where many get accused of hiding, when in actuality, it's taking them that bit too long to process what's going on and what they should be doing at that precise moment.) and so on and so forth. But by and large, you watch them and the technical acumen is so intrinsic, you don't really give it a second thought unless they are exceptionally good with the ball, you also know every one of them with NT aspirations are aware of the demands that will be placed upon them so even if they play in a negative or lower-possession based team, to make the step up to NT, they have to be able to do a lot more.

Perhaps this is even an extra feather in the cap for them because it would show versatility and eclectic traits that move them from system-based to universal. I've been high on their DM's for quite some time and wondered how they've not been plundered for talent, tbh. Javi Martinez was the perfect Carrick successor for me, for example, and they have a stream of these DM's that quietly do their job with no plaudits who, even at base ends would be very good additions to higher placed teams, if not as starters then in the rotation. More important, they are cheap!

I get your main point, but I trust the base fundamentals of those raised and honed in the art to switch systems more plus, the risk is reduced because they don't cost anything like what Rice is touted for. I've not seen it in him where I look at his technical base or mentality and think he'll thrive in a team that hurts the opposition and dominates the play. Even when taking time out and watching him intently, I'm not seeing 'it'; if I was scouting for like-minded, bigger teams than West Ham, I'd be of the opposite opinion, as I'm seeing a lot in him that would thrive in that kind of set up, so it's not about him being a bad player, just not what I think comes as default from aforementioned nations, or players raised in specific leagues.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, can't argue against Spanish midfielders. They have magnet in their boots and chip in their brains. If we can get good Spanish DM then it would be awesome, as like you said they won't cost huge money like Rice, so the risk is not that high.

Disagree about Rice and how you described him. IMO he will be very good player but he won't get out of West Ham, so he will always have that question mark tagged to him. Is he only good enough in defensive teams, can he dominate big teams. There will be arguments to and fro.

For our good, we should just go for players who can be signed without much drama and get on with things.
 
NoLogo said:
Well if we don't, look at other options we are acting highly irresponsible, never a good idea to put all your eggs into one basket. What would also be highly irresponsible is waiting for Rice to come next year and getting no one in to play this role this summer, especially with Matic leaving. Kamara now and then try to go for Rice again next summer or the summer after when he has only one year left on his contract.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think Rice won't be sold. He won't get out of West ham for few years. When he finally does it, it will be for Chelsea.
 
roonster09 said:
Yeah, I think Rice won't be sold. He won't get out of West ham for few years. When he finally does it, it will be for Chelsea.
Click to expand...

That's the thing waiting why waiting for Rice would be foolish, we have no idea if his preferred destination would even be to play for us, we need a realistic solution this summer and I hope ETH and our recruitment team can sort something out.
 
roonster09 said:
Fair enough, can't argue against Spanish midfielders. They have magnet in their boots and chip in their brains. If we can get good Spanish DM then it would be awesome, as like you said they won't cost huge money like Rice, so the risk is not that high.

Disagree about Rice and how you described him. IMO he will be very good player but he won't get out of West Ham, so he will always have that question mark tagged to him. Is he only good enough in defensive teams, can he dominate big teams. There will be arguments to and fro.

For our good, we should just go for players who can be signed without much drama and get on with things.
Click to expand...
I certainly don't think it's Rice or bust, that's for sure. I don't have that 'must buy' feeling with him that I've had with other DM's (like I did with Javi Martinez at Bilbao, for example), and although I think he could go on to thrive and have a great career, I don't think that'll be at a progressive team, or I'd certainly be surprised if it was from what I've seen of him thus far.
 
roonster09 said:
Fair enough, can't argue against Spanish midfielders. They have magnet in their boots and chip in their brains. If we can get good Spanish DM then it would be awesome, as like you said they won't cost huge money like Rice, so the risk is not that high.

Disagree about Rice and how you described him. IMO he will be very good player but he won't get out of West Ham, so he will always have that question mark tagged to him. Is he only good enough in defensive teams, can he dominate big teams. There will be arguments to and fro.

For our good, we should just go for players who can be signed without much drama and get on with things.
Click to expand...

For some reason Martín Zubimendi from Real Sociedad goes under the radar. He's an excellent DM and reminds me of Matic in some ways, but more agile and tricky (as he should be, being Spanish). Zubimendi is one of their most important players, and Barcelona are rumoured to have him on their wishlist as a replacement for Busquets. Very, very good player and he's only 23 years old! Definitely think we should be looking at him, and he will be a lot more cheaper than Rice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: roonster09
Fortitude said:
I certainly don't think it's Rice or bust, that's for sure. I don't have that 'must buy' feeling with him that I've had with other DM's (like I did with Javi Martinez at Bilbao, for example), and although I think he could go on to thrive and have a great career, I don't think that'll be at a progressive team, or I'd certainly be surprised if it was from what I've seen of him thus far.
Click to expand...

Yeah, even I don't think it's Rice or bust, there should be lot of options if we look beyond obvious players.

Like you said, we have to sign other midfielders. I agree with your point that Spanish CMs have that slickness and comfort with the ball, with Rice it looks bit forced just like it is with Henderson. He is good technically, can play good passes, line breaking passes, ping long passes and good ball carrier too. End of the day, he isn't for sale and we shouldn't be breaking the bank to sign him. It will be interesting to see how Rice and West Ham decide the future.

Anyways for us, I hope we land CM/DM quickly. We need at least 2 CMs, we should be smart with our budget and make use of free transfers.
 
He'd be the ideal DM for a Mourinho/Conte/Poch team but under Ten Hag I just think we need a better technician.
 
Mainoldo said:
Okay abit more context. Name a top club that brought a well scouting unknown DM to the average fan?

Also like you said in your brief. It sounds simple enough so you name them. Name a non English 6/8 better than Rice. It can’t be that hard.
Click to expand...


I don't want to get into the whole "who is a DM" convo, but I mean Kante was relatively unknown before Leicester pulled him in, wasn't he?
 
Mainoldo said:
Okay abit more context. Name a top club that brought a well scouting unknown DM to the average fan?

Also like you said in your brief. It sounds simple enough so you name them. Name a non English 6/8 better than Rice. It can’t be that hard.
Click to expand...

Bayern signed Kimmich, Madrid signed Casemiro. Both of them cost peanuts but they didn't go straight into first 11 or as DM.

Atletico signed Rodri for around 20 million from Villarreal, City signed Fernandinho for around 30 million (tbf 30 million was good money back then). You don't have to do world wide, unknown league scouting. From the top leagues, you can find the player with skillset to compliment our other CMs (who will be signed).

Also we have to spend close to or more than 100 million for Rice, so do you know any top club, or any club that spend that much money on a DM?
 
Bebestation said:
The other thing i notice is that Rice doesn't play the way he plays against City the way he did against clubs like Sevilla or Lyon.

He plays in different ways depending on who the opposition is due to both managerial, team and opposition tactic on how they play.
Click to expand...
I did not see them vs Sevilla, but vs Lyon he 100% gave up midfield and couldn't even begin to win that battle. 32% and 28% possession in those games.
 
StonedhamsterZA said:
I don't want to get into the whole "who is a DM" convo, but I mean Kante was relatively unknown before Leicester pulled him in, wasn't he?
Click to expand...

To Leicester not a top 6 club. That’s the difference. Kante doesn’t do what he does if he moved straight to Chelsea for instance. That’s why I said name that scenario.
 
zaafi said:
For some reason Martín Zubimendi from Real Sociedad goes under the radar. He's an excellent DM and reminds me of Matic in some ways, but more agile and tricky (as he should be, being Spanish). Zubimendi is one of their most important players, and Barcelona are rumoured to have him on their wishlist as a replacement for Busquets. Very, very good player and he's only 23 years old! Definitely think we should be looking at him, and he will be a lot more cheaper than Rice.
Click to expand...
Just had a quick look at him on youtube, not seen him before. He looks like a really natural player, well balanced, for a youtube video anyway.
 
roonster09 said:
Bayern signed Kimmich, Madrid signed Casemiro. Both of them cost peanuts but they didn't go straight into first 11 or as DM.

Atletico signed Rodri for around 20 million from Villarreal, City signed Fernandinho for around 30 million (tbf 30 million was good money back then). You don't have to do world wide, unknown league scouting. From the top leagues, you can find the player with skillset to compliment our other CMs (who will be signed).

Also we have to spend close to or more than 100 million for Rice, so do you know any top club, or any club that spend that much money on a DM?
Click to expand...

The Rodri example is what I’m looking for. I’ve said that in many post above. Kimmich grew into that role.. as they already had quality CMs in his position. Didn’t Casemiro go out on loan and Zidane took a chance on him when he came back? I can’t really remember.

But again in short all I’m looking for is the next Xabi Alonso from Real Sociedad. Who is that? One one seem to be close to Rice in that regard but yet we all want the alternative.
 
Mainoldo said:
The Rodri example is what I’m looking for. I’ve said that in many post above. Kimmich grew into that role.. as they already had quality CMs in his position. Didn’t Casemiro go out on loan and Zidane took a chance on him when he came back? I can’t really remember.

But again in short all I’m looking for is the next Xabi Alonso from Real Sociedad. Who is that? One one seem to be close to Rice in that regard but yet we all want the alternative.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Kimmich and Casemiro are not good examples as they didn't fit in right away, but like you said we need to identify the player who has played well and has potential to step up. City and Liverpool have done great job signing players in 24-27 category, players who have enough experience and young enough to play for years.
 
roonster09 said:
Good post, agree with almost all of that. Biggest obstacle in signing him is money, it doesn't make sense to pay so much money for Rice.

Regarding the point I quoted, we can say this if he plays in expansive team and failed isn't it? He plays for Moyes who is all about contain and counter attack.

I also read few posts saying how he should take control of the team, IMO they all miss the key point. Player won't be controlling it, it's the tactical set up that controls it. That' the reason any midfield Pep plays, they dominate the game. I checked Rodri history, he always had high completion individually but his team always gave away possession, they averaged 49% possession in 2018-19. He signed for City and they average over 60% possession. He played for Villarreal before, they averaged just 52% possession.

I checked one of their game stats, in game vs Dortmund, Rodri played just 48 passes at home, in the same game Witsel - 84 passes and Delaney - 78 passes. In the same season vs Barca, he played just 49 passes while players like Busquets and Arthur played 90 and 77 passes.

Atletico lost midfield battle not because of Rodri or any players, it was their set up. Likewise, City don't dominate midfield not because of Rodri, it's the way they set up.

It's bit all over the place, point is unless these players play in the system that is designed to dominate, it's very harsh to say they can't control midfield based on their performance in counter attacking set up. Saying all that, I wouldn't sign Rice as he cost way too much. It's not worth it. He has skillset to play to be very good player, he has everything in his locker IMO.
Click to expand...
Exactly this. You can only judge players in the systems they've played in. If you want to use them in a different system then it's up to the football knowledge and talent identification of the coach/scouts to be recognising the transferrable skills of the player and what's not being utilised by his present team that you spot. Like how certain players are midfielders and then played as a defender or a striker then to a midfielder and they become better players. Someone realised they have transferrable skills. Rice may have those but his cost is prohibitive to try that.
 
Good player, not great.

Not the sort you'd pay through the teeth for.

Could we use him? Of course.

Should we prioritize signing him? No.

In more extreme terms (since he seems to have some extreme proponents):

Is he the new Keano? No.

(As always, I'm more than happy to be proved wrong - in fact, I'll be positively ecstatic if he turns out to be the new Keano...for us, preferably).
 
I'd still like to see him at United.

His work rate is 10x what we have right now in midfield & he is better quality all round than McFred.

If he wasn't being held hostage with such a crazy price tag, I would say the majority would here say sign him now.

The guy is better than anything we have had in Midfield in last 10 years, & bad scouting probably stopped us getting him maybe 2 years ago when his price would have been better value.

Maybe another player who will leave on a free eventually, which is now becoming the new norm in modern football.
 
If it was a choice between Rice and Phillips. I'd take Rice very time. To me, his the one who would improve us and would himself improve at OT. I'm not sure Phillips has much more to give unless he's playing alongside Liverpool or City players
 
We need better. He wasn't good against Hungary. I don't I am glad the rumours about him have gone away, I don't see why some people still want him.
 
Red the Bear said:
Is he reliable?
Click to expand...

Not sure. He's a guy a lot of Chelsea fans trust but I don't follow him enough to know his reliability. He's no Matt Law that's for sure, so I suppose we should add the appropriate levels of salt to this report.
 
It's funny thinking about us signing Rice now we're seemingly so close to signing FDJ. It's a bit like when we signed Maguire when we should have gone for someone like Dias (essentially paying Ferrari prices for a Ford Focus)

Compare FDJ to Rice and the gulf in class between the two is massive
 
I think this guy is going to get better and better and no one can say he doesn't put in 100% effort every game. He is certainly an upgrade on what we have now and just because we might get FDJ shouldn't rule us out of going for Rice. Our squad (not just 1st XI) is the poorest it's been for years - remember the days when we pretty much had two quality players for each position? In this day and age, £75m doesn't sound that much for a player with 8-10 years left of his career and who is not even at his peak yet.
 
mitchmouse said:
I think this guy is going to get better and better and no one can say he doesn't put in 100% effort every game. He is certainly an upgrade on what we have now and just because we might get FDJ shouldn't rule us out of going for Rice. Our squad (not just 1st XI) is the poorest it's been for years - remember the days when we pretty much had two quality players for each position? In this day and age, £75m doesn't sound that much for a player with 8-10 years left of his career and who is not even at his peak yet.
Click to expand...

Not a chance in hell west ham sell for 75m. Closer to 150m is what they'd want, probably settle for 120m
 
He will waste another year at West Ham this season - there is absolutely no way anyone would be paying that kind of transfer fee - he is good but who on earth would pay £100m+ for a CDM?
 
Ayoba said:
Not a chance in hell west ham sell for 75m. Closer to 150m is what they'd want, probably settle for 120m
Click to expand...
Not sure even Chelsea will be willing to pay that... not sure even under the old regime. City and, I guess, Newcastle are the only ones who would definitely be able to spend that spend that and no sign that either of them want him or that he wants to go to either of those. I wonder if we have a player who could be part of a swap deal... Rashford, possibly but not sure he'd want to go to West Ham
 
GoldanoGraham said:
He will waste another year at West Ham this season - there is absolutely no way anyone would be paying that kind of transfer fee - he is good but who on earth would pay £100m+ for a CDM?
Click to expand...
well, there are two clubs who could afford that but City show no sign of wanting him and Newcastle's eyes seem to be elsewhere (my bet is in the nest two years they will be looking to sign a top top striker)
 
In my opinion Rice is a player who'd work best for counter pressing tactic teams. Not one looking to hog possesion and consntantly break deep blocks from deep. I believe if you he were in Klopp's current Liverpool or Tuchel's Chelsea. Or team that played like Red Bull he'd look princely. Whilst he wouldn't be that noticeable in a Pep style team.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.