Declan Rice

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Frank Grimes said:
Because Kane drops into midfield regularly and looks to find Son(usually) with through balls. Obviously these type of passes are going to be high risk so his pass percentage will drop as a result.
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This is what I thought too.
 
Far-fetched I know but imagine Rice signing, then Wham getting relegated in a year or so.
 
Frank Grimes said:
Because Kane drops into midfield regularly and looks to find Son(usually) with through balls. Obviously these type of passes are going to be high risk so his pass percentage will drop as a result.
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Sure, but it’s still shockingly low., in terms of no. of pass and success rate.

For example, Bruno, who is known to loss possession easily and took a lot of risk, still gets 78% success rate in passing. Kane 70% is shocking. It’s like he nearly miss 1 pass in every 3 attempts, and he only made very little pass in a game too.

To put into perspective, he was ranked the lowest in terms of pass success rate, and ranked 16th in terms of no. of pass, in his own team. Which means, he is probably the biggest liability in his team, in terms of keeping possession and involvement to overall team play.
 
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RedRonaldo said:
Interestingly though Kane average passing stat is 23.9 (70.6%), which is significantly lower than Ronaldo 29.3 (81.9%).
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Kane also has 17 big chances created in the league this season. Only Trent and Salah have more with 18. He has more than KDB and Bruno who have 15 each. Ronaldo has 7.

Frank Grimes said:
Because Kane drops into midfield regularly and looks to find Son(usually) with through balls. Obviously these type of passes are going to be high risk so his pass percentage will drop as a result.
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Indeed. Bruno makes nearly twice as many passes as Kane per 90 so is involved in more safe passing in midfield. Kane is on the ball less and makes more high risk passes as you say. It has its reward as per the stat above and 22 assists he’s got over the past couple of seasons. Ronaldo has 6 league assists over the past 2 seasons.

Kane isn’t even a number 9 anymore. He’s a 9.5 or 10 really.
 
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RedRonaldo said:
Sure, but it’s still shockingly low., in terms of no. of pass and success rate.

For example, Bruno, who is known to loss possession easily and took a lot of risk, still gets 78% success rate in passing. Kane 70% is shocking. It’s like he nearly miss 1 pass in every 3 attempts, and he only made very little pass in a game too.

To put into perspective, he was ranked the lowest in terms of pass success rate, and ranked 16th in terms of no. of pass, in his own team. Which means, he is probably the biggest liability in his team, in terms of keeping possession and involvement to overall team play.
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I remember reading that Rice's passing rate was very high when I saw stats. No one would call him a good passer because of that though.
 
Bebestation said:
I remember reading that Rice's passing rate was very high when I saw stats. No one would call him a good passer because of that though.
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It’s always bit of both, isn’t it. A good passer are those who maintain good no. of pass, reasonably good % of success rate, made decent no. of progressive pass, key pass or pass which positively adds on to build up play of the team etc. A poor passer one are those who is higher up in one of those while on the lower bottom on the other aspects.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Kane also has 17 big chances created in the league this season. Only Trent and Salah have more with 18. He has more than KDB and Bruno who have 15 each. Ronaldo has 7.
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Sure. But that’s on the expense of him losing by far the most possession, and being most likely to interrupt his own team attacking play too, while also involving the least in general play of his team. It’s like taking one step forward but also making one step back at the same time.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Sure. But that’s on the expense of him losing by far the most possession, and being most likely to interrupt his own team attacking play too, while also involving the least in general play of his team. It’s like taking one step forward but also making one step back at the same time.
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He doesn't interupt Spurs's attacking play, he's crucial to it. They play a fairly low block and counter. Kane drops deep and plays high risk passes to his team mates (usually Son) who runs on in front of him. He doesn't play in a possession side nor is his remit to keep possession.

I suppose you could argue that a possession orientated side might want someone who keep possession better but that would beg the question as to why Pep wanted to sign him, or why he's signed Haaland who has similar pass completion rate. I'd argue that it's because a high pass completion rate isn't really of high value for the player that touches the ball least on the pitch and that plays closest to the opposition goal, especially when their end product levels are high.
 
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Classical Mechanic said:
He doesn't interupt Spurs's attacking play, he's crucial to it. They play a fairly low block and counter. Kane drops deep and plays high risk passes to his team mates (usually Son) who runs on in front of him. He doesn't play in a possession side nor is his remit to keep possession.
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But how do you explain he has by far the worst possession stat in his own squad? There are 25 players there, and he ranked at 25th, even worst then the subs/backups! Surely keeping the ball would still be important aspect, regardless of what type of football they are playing. When you keep losing the ball to opponents, it’s opponents chance to attack more, and your team to attack less. I am not saying he is bad player as he does create chances and score a few. But similar to Bruno this season, he has also created holes in his team’s attack play.

I mean, someone as creative as Salah, who has made more pass, create more chances (key pass), more assists, and has managed much better success rate too. Good passer doesn’t really need to compensate a lot of their hit rate in order to take more risk and be creative. There should be a balance of it.
 
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RedRonaldo said:
But how do you explain he has by far the worst possession stat in his own squad? There are 25 players there, and he ranked at 25th, even worst then the subs/backups! Surely keeping the ball would still be important aspect, regardless of what type of football they are playing. When you keep losing the ball to opponents, it’s opponents chance to attack more, and your team to attack less. I am not saying he is bad player as he does create chances and score a few. But similar to Bruno this season, he has also created holes in his team’s attack play.
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My addition to the last post - I don't think it's the important issue that you do.

I suppose you could argue that a possession orientated side might want someone who keep possession better but that would beg the question as to why Pep wanted to sign him, or why he's signed Haaland who has similar pass completion rate. I'd argue that it's because a high pass completion rate isn't really of high value for the player that touches the ball least on the pitch and that plays closest to the opposition goal, especially when their end product levels are high.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
My addition to the last post - I don't think it's the important issue that you do.

I suppose you could argue that a possession orientated side might want someone who keep possession better but that would beg the question as to why Pep wanted to sign him, or why he's signed Haaland who has similar pass completion rate. I'd argue that it's because a high pass completion rate isn't really of high value for the player that touches the ball least on the pitch and that plays closest to the opposition goal, especially when their end product levels are high.
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I don’t know if it’s true for him. Normally that’s the case for most CF, but Kane’s game, especially in recent years, is more based on dropping back to help out the midfield abit of attacking build up play. I think this might become abit more disruptive to the overall team play with his very low passing rate.
 
RedRonaldo said:
I don’t know if it’s true for him. Normally that’s the case for most CF, but Kane’s game, especially in recent years, is more based on dropping back to help out the midfield abit of attacking build up play. I think this might become abit more disruptive to the overall team play with his very low passing rate.
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I'm not really seeing it. Kane has more assists over the past two seasons than Trent, KDB, Salah, Robertson etc. I don't think any player has more. He still only makes as many passes as a number 9 so a lot of his passes are going to be high risk. He isn't involved in deeper build up as regular as most of those players where the passes will be more simple, resulting in a higher pass completion rate.

I highly doubt that Conte is lamenting Kane's pass completion rate.
 
Last post I make about Kane vs Ronaldo in Rice thread but I see more through balls from Kane to his inverted forwards.

These are going to work out less at times than Ronaldo's more straight one two's to Sancho and Rashford to try and set him up again.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I'm not really seeing it. Kane has more assists over the past two seasons than Trent, KDB, Salah, Robertson etc. I don't think any player has more. He still only makes as many passes as a number 9 so a lot of his passes are going to be high risk. He isn't involved in deeper build up as regular as most of those players where the passes will be more simple, resulting in a higher pass completion rate.

I highly doubt that Conte is lamenting Kane's pass completion rate.
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Well see this is how it all went back to circles. It’s hard to make it conclusive on more chances created vs losing more possession to the extent of being disruptive to overall team play.

And this is also the exact same argument we have on Bruno this season, who has always managed to produce more assists/created more chances, but at the same time being more and more disruptive to our overall team play, and also creates holes in our midfield.

But sure you could argue Kane being CF is less likely to be disruptive. But from what I’ve watched, his game is about dropping back more these days than being pure poacher in box. And we are back to where we started.
 
West Ham to offer £200k a week for Rice.

If they do that, they will never sell him on eventually.
 
He'd be stupid to sign a big 8 year deal at West Ham. He's signing away his career to a Kane like situation.

If I was him, I'd either just sit and let my contract run lower so I have options. Or I'd sign a new deal but only on a 3 year contract.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Well see this is how it all went back to circles. It’s hard to make it conclusive on more chances created vs losing more possession to the extent of being disruptive to overall team play.

And this is also the exact same argument we have on Bruno this season, who has always managed to produce more assists/created more chances, but at the same time being more and more disruptive to our overall team play, and also creates holes in our midfield.

But sure you could argue Kane being CF is less likely to be disruptive. But from what I’ve watched, his game is about dropping back more these days than being pure poacher in box. And we are back to where we started.
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This will be the last post I'll make on this as it's a derailing of the thread and we obviously don't agree.

I don't think we do get back to where we started. Kane touches the ball less than all those other creative players. As such his involvement in team play is less in terms of passing. By definition he is less important to possession retention than someone like Bruno who makes about 2x the pases Kane does. His involvement in terms of touches is still in the range of a number 9, despite him producing numbers in terms of creativity like the best playmakers in the league.

It's an academic argument anyway because we're not going to sign Kane anyway (nor Rice who this thread is actually about).
 
RedRonaldo said:
But how do you explain he has by far the worst possession stat in his own squad? There are 25 players there, and he ranked at 25th, even worst then the subs/backups! Surely keeping the ball would still be important aspect, regardless of what type of football they are playing. When you keep losing the ball to opponents, it’s opponents chance to attack more, and your team to attack less. I am not saying he is bad player as he does create chances and score a few. But similar to Bruno this season, he has also created holes in his team’s attack play.

I mean, someone as creative as Salah, who has made more pass, create more chances (key pass), more assists, and has managed much better success rate too. Good passer doesn’t really need to compensate a lot of their hit rate in order to take more risk and be creative. There should be a balance of it.
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Giggs had a pss completion around 70%. Beckham was anout 78%. Tom cleverley was on about 90% average, slightly higher than Scholes. Its not a reliable indicator in isolation. You need to take other stats into account. Salah plays 0.5 long passes a game. Kane makes 1.9. So Kane is making longer passes that are more likely to be intercepted. Salah by comparison is getting his key passes making short passes to team-mates close to the goal.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
This will be the last post I'll make on this as it's a derailing of the thread and we obviously don't agree.

I don't think we do get back to where we started. Kane touches the ball less than all those other creative players. As such his involvement in team play is less in terms of passing. By definition he is less important to possession retention than someone like Bruno who makes about 2x the pases Kane does. His involvement in terms of touches is still in the range of a number 9, despite him producing numbers in terms of creativity like the best playmakers in the league.

It's an academic argument anyway because we're not going to sign Kane anyway (nor Rice who this thread is actually about).
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Scholsey2004 said:
Giggs had a pss completion around 70%. Beckham was anout 78%. Tom cleverley was on about 90% average, slightly higher than Scholes. Its not a reliable indicator in isolation. You need to take other stats into account. Salah plays 0.5 long passes a game. Kane makes 1.9. So Kane is making longer passes that are more likely to be intercepted. Salah by comparison is getting his key passes making short passes to team-mates close to the goal.
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This would be my last response on topic, in order not to derail this thread further.

I think you have missed my main point here. It’s already been established that players taking more risk in creating chances would have lower passing rate too. The argument being, specifically in Kane’s case, with the player’s game being based on dropping back to midfield to help setting up attack, is it becoming more disruptive for overall team play when the player also have very low passing rate (missing one in every 3 attempts)?

I think there’s no definitive answer on that, sure at one point it could be desruptive. Extreme examples being player X fecking up 9 out of 10 attempts but still managed 1 chances created. His 1 chances created would be glorified despite 9 chances missed would lessen his team chance of scoring more goals/winning more games.

I’ve only raise this point here as Kane has by far the worst success rate in his squad (ranked 25th out of 25 in Spur), which I feel would be interesting to discuss here.
 
I mean i doubt anyone was going to sign him at the current price range.

He really needs to look at what has happened to players over the past years.

I don't understand why highly rated players are not advised better.

Zaha wanted a move to Arsenal, when his stock was high, Palace priced him out and now he is not going to get a move anywhere as close to Arsenal.

Kane wanted to move to City, they wanted him and Spurs priced him out, now he wont get a move to a bigger club.

Some of these young players need to stop signing their life away.
 
Declan Rice is my favourite player to become our new HM.

Frenkie next to him and we would be challenging for titles.
 
Was anonymous against City today. Good player but you could invest the money so much wiser on several players opposed to committing £100 million + on him alone.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Basically, a £100m McTominay then.

Also, his comments post-game show a serious loser/entitled mentality. Seems to be hard coded into a lot of these English players that are led to believe they are better than they really are.

Hope we stay well clear of him.
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::sonny:: said:
Overhyped McTominay
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I’ve said this for months. They’re the same player.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
5 tackles (1st for both teams)
3 interceptions (1st for both teams)
4 clearances (1st for both teams)

Maybe you're watching naive.
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This is what people cannot see past. They went 2-0 up and he's hiding in front of a back 4 with minimal space around him.

It's easy for a player like Rice to nip the ball away in tight areas like that, it's bread and butter for him.

Surely for 80m we're asking more of him in midfield than making 5 tackles in 90 minutes?

He's just a solid tackling midfielder, that's it.
 
Augustus Gloop said:
And 16 passes!

Fantastic for a player carrying a £150 million price tag.
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bond19821982 said:
It's not really that hard to shine defensively when you are defending in your own box for 90 minutes.
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And what do you expect him to do within the context of that game considering the tactics of his team and the difference in levels between the two sides?

The assertion made in the post I responded to was that he was anonymous when he quite clearly wasn't within the context of his team performance, in fact he was one of their best players - as usual.

The £150m price tag isn't a credible tool to measure of the player with. It's no more than a fantastical negotiating tactic used by the club that owns his economic rights. It's not a legitimate method of reflection on the player or his performances.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
And what do you expect him to do within the context of that game considering the tactics of his team and the difference in levels between the two sides?

The assertion made in the post I responded to was that he was anonymous when he quite clearly wasn't within the context of his team performance, in fact he was one of their best players - as usual.

The £150m price tag isn't a credible tool to measure of the player with. It's no more than a fantastical negotiating tactic used by the club that owns his economic rights. It is no credible reflection on the player or his performances.
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While I can agree with the price part, today isn't the day to come up with the stats of his defensive accomplishment either.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Sure, but it’s still shockingly low., in terms of no. of pass and success rate.

For example, Bruno, who is known to loss possession easily and took a lot of risk, still gets 78% success rate in passing. Kane 70% is shocking. It’s like he nearly miss 1 pass in every 3 attempts, and he only made very little pass in a game too.

To put into perspective, he was ranked the lowest in terms of pass success rate, and ranked 16th in terms of no. of pass, in his own team. Which means, he is probably the biggest liability in his team, in terms of keeping possession and involvement to overall team play.
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it’s just because he’s a striker and usually passing in a more crowded part of the pitch

it’s pretty common for strikers to have these sort of passing stats
 
Classical Mechanic said:
And what do you expect him to do within the context of that game considering the tactics of his team and the difference in levels between the two sides?

The assertion made in the post I responded to was that he was anonymous when he quite clearly wasn't within the context of his team performance, in fact he was one of their best players - as usual.

The £150m price tag isn't a credible tool to measure of the player with. It's no more than a fantastical negotiating tactic used by the club that owns his economic rights. It's not a legitimate method of reflection on the player or his performances.
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I think this is also something people don't see.

West Ham sat through the whole game with the tactics to defend against the worlds best team in possession.

Rice is not going to be playing like Scholes or Pirlo when the whole team is sitting in their own half. He can't play like those players but neither would he play that way because the whole team is defensive.

This is exactly what Rice did vs Italy. He sat back alongside the rest of the team whilst Italy controlled the game.

When West ham control the game and are the ones in hold of possesion - then Rice plays differently to how he played today.

It's like people complaining about his 16 passes. Like what are people expecting? Him to have 100 passes vs City's team of never lose possesion?

Rice led to the Fernandinho mistake that nearly had Antonio scoring - which he should have passed to Bowen anyway.

Not his great games i admit but I don't think you can call it anonymous after pulling a 2-2 vs City and a 2-0 up to half time.
 
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Classical Mechanic said:
So which defensive player for West Ham takes more credit for them not losing to probably the best club in world football then?
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How's that relevant here ? For 100m + , I expect more than 5 tackles . Ofcourse you can say that the whole team defended today and that's why I mentioned today isn't a game to come up with his stats.
 
bond19821982 said:
How's that relevant here ? For 100m + , I expect more than 5 tackles . Ofcourse you can say that the whole team defended today and that's why I mentioned today isn't a game to come up with his stats.
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How many tackles against City per 90 do you expect for the imaginary valuation of Rice you've concocted in you mind?
 
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