Declan Rice

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Classical Mechanic said:
How many tackles against City per 90 do you expect for the imaginary valuation of Rice you've concocted in you mind?
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Mate , I really don't know what you are trying to discuss here. It's not really rocket science. For 100m , I expect a complete player or a potential player who can do bloody brilliantly well in both offensive and defensive transitions.

Was he good offensively today ? No, he was crap.

Was he good defensively today ? Ofcourse, but then the whole team defended in the box today. So today isn't a day to judge his stats. He had basically nothing to do but stay in the box and defend.
 
bond19821982 said:
Mate , I really don't know what you are trying to discuss here. It's not really rocket science. For 100m , I expect a complete player or a potential player who can do bloody brilliantly well in both offensive and defensive transitions.

Was he good offensively today ? No, he was crap.

Was he good defensively today ? Ofcourse, but then the whole team defended in the box today. So today isn't a day to judge his stats. He had basically nothing to do but stay in the box and defend.
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How do you judge a defensive teams stats then?
 
bond19821982 said:
Mate , I really don't know what you are trying to discuss here. It's not really rocket science. For 100m , I expect a complete player or a potential player who can do bloody brilliantly well in both offensive and defensive transitions.

Was he good offensively today ? No, he was crap.

Was he good defensively today ? Ofcourse, but then the whole team defended in the box today. So today isn't a day to judge his stats. He had basically nothing to do but stay in the box and defend.
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He pressed and led to the Fernandinho mistake that Antonio missed.
 
Bebestation said:
He pressed and led to the Fernandinho mistake that Antonio missed.
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So be it. I never said he is a bad player and I would happy if we sign him too. All I said was, today isn't a day to come up with his defensive stats and glorify his contributions and say he is worth every penny of 100.
 
bond19821982 said:
So be it. I never said he is a bad player and I would happy if we sign him too. All I said was, today isn't a day to come up with his defensive stats and glorify his contributions and say he is worth every penny of 100.
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Yvess Bissouma a better option
with a fine assist today
 
Bebestation said:
I think this is also something people don't see.

West Ham sat through the whole game with the tactics to defend against the worlds best team in possession.

Rice is not going to be playing like Scholes or Pirlo when the whole team is sitting in their own half. He can't play like those players but neither would he play that way because the whole team is defensive.

This is exactly what Rice did vs Italy. He sat back alongside the rest of the team whilst Italy controlled the game.

When West ham control the game and are the ones in hold of possesion - then Rice plays differently to how he played today.

It's like people complaining about his 16 passes. Like what are people expecting? Him to have 100 passes vs City's team of never lose possesion?

Rice led to the Fernandinho mistake that nearly had Antonio scoring - which he should have passed to Bowen anyway.

Not his great games i admit but I don't think you can call it anonymous after pulling a 2-2 vs City and a 2-0 up to half time.
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He's supposed to be central to getting midfield control.
 
Hammondo said:
He's supposed to be central to getting midfield control.
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Against City?

And he is going to get central midfield control by himself whilst the rest of the team as a tactic sit back and willingly absorb the pressure?
 
Bebestation said:
Against City?

And he is going to get central midfield control by himself whilst the rest of the team as a tactic sit back and willingly absorb the pressure?
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Of course the whole team is involved, but the DM is central to it.
 
Hammondo said:
Do a better job at getting control of the ball and keeping it. A top level DM does more in these areas.
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What do you expect Kante to do if he played for West Ham today? Run around a press whilst the rest of the team are sitting and playing on the counter?
 
Bebestation said:
What do you expect Kante to do if he played for West Ham today? Run around a press whilst the rest of the team are sitting and playing on the counter?
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No, I didn't say that. He's one of the reasons why they defend so deep
 
Hammondo said:
No, I didn't say that. He's one of the reasons why they defend so deep
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Okay. It's not a team tactic but because of Rice that West Ham sat back against City.

Rice then was useful to getting a 2-2 result.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
What's your comparison?
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Well look at the Liverpool midfielders, or Chelsea.
Bebestation said:
Okay. It's not a team tactic but because of Rice that West Ham sat back against City.

Rice then was useful to getting a 2-2 result.
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It's a team tactic due to player limitations, and to battle the midfield the DM is the main player to help get the ball and keep it.
 
Hammondo said:
Well look at the Liverpool midfielders, or Chelsea.
It's a team tactic due to player limitations, and to battle the midfield the DM is the main player to help get the ball and keep it.
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So it's Rice's limitations vs City that had them playing defensive. 22% possesion and still came up with a draw.

Then the match before West ham win 4-0 vs norwhich with 64% possesion. Did they play that way due to his limitations too?
 
Hammondo said:
Well look at the Liverpool midfielders, or Chelsea.
It's a team tactic due to player limitations, and to battle the midfield the DM is the main player to help get the ball and keep it.
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Bang on. West Ham and Moyes are only playing sit deep and counter against City because of Declan Rice’s limitations. If Rhodri and Rice swapped teams West Ham would be playing super high dominating City with 75% possession. In the same way if Busquets and Carrick swapped places in 2011 we’d have absolutely battered Barcelona. Makes total sense.
 
I'm still in the camp he does another year in Europe with West Ham, gets the World Cup out of the way, and moves next season for a slightly reduced fee.

His fee is at its peak currently, couple seasons of excellent performances, still young, years left on his contract - it only goes down from this summer unfortunately for West Ham.
 
Mickeza said:
Bang on. West Ham and Moyes are only playing sit deep and counter against City because of Declan Rice’s limitations. If Rhodri and Rice swapped teams West Ham would be playing super high dominating City with 75% possession. In the same way if Busquets and Carrick swapped places in 2011 we’d have absolutely battered Barcelona. Makes total sense.
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Do you know what the strawman fallacy is?
 
How was he today?
Couldn't really concentrate on his performance after the panic set in.
 
Bebestation said:
So it's Rice's limitations vs City that had them playing defensive. 22% possesion and still came up with a draw.

Then the match before West ham win 4-0 vs norwhich with 64% possesion. Did they play that way due to his limitations too?
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But being better than Norwich isn't the objective.
 
Rice would be a tremendous asset for us, but the price we’d have to pay for him this summer is excessive.
 
You can't say he ought to have got control of midfield today. He's not superman. One player is not going to do that next to Soucek who is a big cumbersome box to box more known for his play in penalty areas. How are you going to do that against 3 technical City players ? Simply not happening. Rice would have needed a couple of talented bodies around him to have any prayer of getting a foothold on possession.

But at the same time I wouldn't go mad over blocks or interceptions or tackles when they're going to be disproportionately represented by the style of game played by West Ham.

I think at this point we know what he is and isn't, although he's going to keep on improving I think. He is excellent defensively, excellent at carrying the ball and a safe passer. Shown it all season. If you have one or two around him that are excellent technically you have one hell of a midfield. He might be more towards a specialist but a lot of modern midfielders are like that.
 
Hammondo said:
Well look at the Liverpool midfielders, or Chelsea.
It's a team tactic due to player limitations, and to battle the midfield the DM is the main player to help get the ball and keep it.
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Team tactics is due to manager limitations. You won't be controlling midfield with Moyes as manager, against Pep.
 
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It can't be that hard to find a defensively solid player with a bit of ability on the ball for a lot less than £100 million +, or are our scouts just that bad? I can't see a reason to spend so much on this kind of player. The most successful clubs in europe, I don't see any of them spending £100 million+ on a DM.
 
Still see no evidence this guy can play good football in an expansive team who are looking to suffocate the opposition. All this backs to the wall, defensive, trenches football he plays for club and country have no relevance to attacking, club teams because he will never get the support or shored up half-spaces he does with bodies tightly knitted behind him and a partner in midfield who is always in close proximity.

If he's the gem some think he is, he's auditioning for defensive teams around the world and isn't showing enough with the ball to be the same value of player to offensive sides. Maybe he has it in him, maybe he doesn't, but we don't see enough: chain-passing; progressive passing; press resistance and the other tenets top, top class DM's in offensive teams are showing.

You want at least a young Matic for this kind of money; ideally you want a young Fernandinho, Busquets or Casemiro, or go for players like Rodri, Fabinho.

There should be a common theme easily detected amongst the players above, namely, apart from Matic they're Brazilian or Spanish. In times gone by, there'd be a host of Dutch names in the mix, too. Why is this? Because Brazil have respected, and procured players in the DM role since they took on the game and hailed them as far back as the 40's. Their production line of expansive playing, intelligent, technically excellent and defensively rock-solid players is going to piss on that of any other nation because they have demanded a type of football in their nation that others can only play catch-up with, and it's no surprise to see Spaniards being another exceptional forerunner in the role, as they, again, have prided and honed the role for a long, long time and gone into hyperdrive with it since 90's. It seems like an absolute no-brainer to me to mine for talent in these nations and look to buy one of their up and coming highly rated DM's, of which, there is bound to be a number. I am not saying other nations will not have a few players who fit the mould, but for it to be seamless, it has to support the overarching philosophy of the nation; a systematic production line of players - for there talent or lack there of - who have next to nothing left to do but prove themselves.

Wanting the moon on a stick from a player like Rice is unfair when he comes from a land where DM's are not well-regarded and are just there to be a body in the centre of midfield, rather than orchestrate play and determine the flow of games. Rice is honed in what he's been nurtured in, and honestly, would be a no-brainer for any defensive coach who is not going to leave him high and dry for vast periods of a game, whereas the DM's from the aforementioned nations are always left to fend for themselves and be a cornerstone of the entire side via their abilities to both read play and constantly, constantly be progressive with the ball, which has been demanded of them in the role for longer than they can remember.

The gripes in this thread are an infinitesimal loop between those who want one kind of DM and those who see the job Rice does in a negative setup and expect him to simply transpose to a diametrically opposing one. Every time I watch him play, I am looking for the qualities and tenets of the Brazilian, Spanish or other progressive nations' DM's, and I rarely see it, which has me conclude the same thing every time: not suited to us. I'm not interested in the backs to the wall, trenches stuff because United should play that way a fraction of a fraction of the time, so those kind of plaudits are boosts to a CV of a player who should be going to a modern-day Jose (in his prime) or Simeone etc. team, and even, it's unfair on the player to take him out of systems he clearly thrives in and then demand a completely different set of skills from him in another, imo.

This thing about eye test is also an insight into the schools of thought about what a DM should be doing from one person to another. For people like myself, they want to see the DM not only be able to cover a large amount of space by himself, but then be immediately able to transition from negative to wholly positive in the blink of an eye. Not only should a DM win the ball, or read the play and intercept it, he should then immediately be able to use it in a damaging, defense-splitting way; he doesn't have to be flash, but it has to be incisive, that's the eye test of the kind of DM I want in my teams. A player who breaks up play, via sitting and being right between the lines with his CB's who is then risk averse or simply unable to be expansive more often than not, is asking for very different things from both audience and team-mates; for the viewer who wants to see the previously described kind of DM, he has to be immaculate defensively to offset for his lack of progressive contributions, but I think if you're more about a DM being a pure ball-winner, your bottom line in the eye test is different: he won the ball, ergo his job is done and as long as he then finds another player in the same shirt, he's a success who can do that in any team be they negative (constricted) or positive (expansive). Those in the former camp are going to pick holes in plays those in the latter see nothing at all wrong with and I think that partially explains why there's been no agreement on Rice amongst viewers of this thread for a long time now.

The money is also an obvious stumbling block, because then you have to ask: how much should one type of DM go for, and just how good is he at what he does to justify that fee? How many that baulk at £100m for Rice would have the same objection if a regen of Matic, Busquets, Fernandinho or Casemiro was up for sale this summer? I don't think money in and of itself is the issue here; it's what you get in Rice for it - and I bet if you made a thread and asked what you expect in a DM for top of the market prices, it'll be filled with the type of players who play in the manner that sees them cope as soloists who make massive contributions on both sides of the ball.

The TL: dr of this post is that we should be scouring markets of nations famed for their progressive football. The sickening thing is all the players mentioned in this thread arrived at their clubs for a relative pittance, so they are, and have always been out there. It's on our scouts to identify and recommend them then you don't get any Rice conundrums.
 
I wouldn’t go near for him this summer due to the following reasons:

- his 150m price tag
- we need a baller and/or aggressor in midfield, he isn’t
- we are going to play possession football under ETH, he hasn’t shown in England or West Ham shirts that he (and his team) could take control and outplay opponents in midfield
 
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For me we are at a stage where we need our Carrick more than our Hargreaves; so I can see why people are not that wanting of him at the moment.

He is more like a transfer that will turn a good team great by making a team that's hard to beat - near impossible to beat. Like the Casemiro to the Kroos and Modric.

We are not a good team yet so again it's about moving up a level rather than getting the last level done.

That doesn't make me stop wanting him at the club though, but it's probably not the right time either.
 
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If we still had Ole then he'll probably be a good recruitment as Ole likes to play counter attacking football

But he isn't here anymore, so there is no point in getting him.

I don't think anyone is deluded enough to believe he's some kind of midfield maestro that knows the intricacies of possession football.

Take McTominay, double or triple his defensive ability. That's Rice.
 
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