Declan Rice

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Don't get why people would watch how west ham played today against us, and think we should buy a player integral to how they play.

Thought we wanted to move away from being a counter attacking team?
 
He was absolutely excellent, and would transform us instantly. He clearly quite likes us too.

As with Haaland and countless other transfers that seem to make too much sense, it will not happen, because we're the Glazer's United.
 
Top CDM he already is but CDM don't cost the fee West ham would demand, we'll probably sign three players next summer, no way are we paying 100m for Rice.
 
He was so annoying to play against. Always cutting the pass before it got to its destination.
 
cyberman said:
You are giving Rice far too much credit here. They sat back in a low block and played long to Antonio. They tried pressing up early in the match but Fred and Scott started passing round their press and forced them back.
Fred and Scott did progress the ball up midfield and fed the attackers, not being able to get in behind the West Ham block isn’t on them. They dominated midfield and gave us the best foot forward to win the game.
We have literally seen Rices performes over the last two seasons with McFred, especially in big games that Ole had a good record in. No mention of Scott dictating the shape of our team back then but more would have been made of Scott if he were as embarasssed as West Ham’s midfield were v Leeds last week.
It’s like we forget what modern midfielder are supposed to do when discussing Rice. All talk of needing to press high and progress the ball under pressure just disappears when Declan wedges himself in between the CBS for 90 minutes
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Have we really? Because every game I watch the lack of cover and control they offer from midfield is plain as day. Utd have one of the worst defensive records in the league and are also one of the worst when it comes to chances against. Largely because the midfield offer zero protection to the defence.

Fred and McT are runners, they don't have any great positional sense, they don't have the ball playing ability to dominate games against teams that don't give them all the time in the world on the ball. They don't have the brains and the presence to keep a midfield shape against teams that keep the bal better either. We've so time and again teams just waltzing past them like they aren't even there.

Honeslty, if Utd are going anywhere they are two of the first players that need to go. If Rice was to be one of the replacements he'd be an instant upgrade and would offer more than those two currently do combined.

Maybe he's not worth paying 100m for, because at that price, we'd still probably be left with him playing beside either Fred or McT. When that money could be spent on replacing both of them.
 
We won every statistical category but interceptions and that’s solely because of him. He’s excellent.
 
Oranges038 said:
Have we really? Because every game I watch the lack of cover and control they offer from midfield is plain as day. Utd have one of the worst defensive records in the league and are also one of the worst when it comes to chances against. Largely because the midfield offer zero protection to the defence.

Fred and McT are runners, they don't have any great positional sense, they don't have the ball playing ability to dominate games against teams that don't give them all the time in the world on the ball. They don't have the brains and the presence to keep a midfield shape against teams that keep the bal better either. We've so time and again teams just waltzing past them like they aren't even there.

Honeslty, if Utd are going anywhere they are two of the first players that need to go. If Rice was to be one of the replacements he'd be an instant upgrade and would offer more than those two currently do combined.

Maybe he's not worth paying 100m for, because at that price, we'd still probably be left with him playing beside either Fred or McT. When that money could be spent on replacing both of them.
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Rice and West Ham’s midfield have been overrun every bit as much as Utd this season and West Ham have a worse defensive record than us! And that’s with this great shield in Rice in their side.
We are going around in circles here but someone like Neves is an all round midfielder who had 10x the game Rice had today at OT.
 
He did well defensively but I couldn't help thinking if he was on our side today would we have been all that much better? West Ham would be weaker, but I'm not altogether convinced he demonstrated that we would have been much more decisive winners.

He did a tidy job for them with his interceptions, positioning, passing (especially given Soucek was woeful) but we struggled with quick progression of the ball and nobody seemed to have something to unlock them. These are not areas in which Rice excels.

It possibly shows there's a lot more to fixing our team than plonking a defensive midfielder in. There are many games when defensive shielding isn't the main or only problem.
 
He's very good at what he does as a defensive central mid. You would think he can transition his qualities as the anchor 6 in a midfield 3.

If you swap out McTominay for Rice today, the control for Man Utd would have been the same with better passing.

Rice is just really expensive compared to a Rodri, Fabinho. United need at least 2 additional CMs to accommodate for the eventual departures of Pogba and Matic.

And Rice has been the big fish in a small pond for quite some time now. A potential transfer to United will heap massive amounts of pressure, expectations, and ridicule from everybody. He'll need to be better too.

Going to Chelsea means he still is in London but part of a club that doesn't get the stupid attention or ridicule as United. And Chelsea would still play with a back 3, something Rice would be benefitting from more than him putting his stamp on a team with 2 CBs.
 
Abraxas said:
He did well defensively but I couldn't help thinking if he was on our side today would we have been all that much better? West Ham would be weaker, but I'm not altogether convinced he demonstrated that we would have been much more decisive winners.

He did a tidy job for them with his interceptions, positioning, passing but we struggled with quick progression of the ball and nobody seemed to have something to unlock them. These are not areas in which Rice excels.

It possibly shows there's a lot more to fixing our team than plonking a defensive midfielder in.
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De Gea has made the made the most saves of any keeper in the league this season! We're 16th in the league for xGA. We certainly have a big issue in that part of the pitch. We concede far too many good chances, even against weaker opposition.
 
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Wednesday at Stoke said:
We won every statistical category but interceptions and that’s solely because of him. He’s excellent.
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He was always gonna win that with the way Moyes setup in a low to mid block. United were the proactive team, whilst unsurprisingly West Ham played a reactive game under Moyes.

For me he's a much better player than Fred and Mctominay and I've always maintained that. But the job of our midfielders was far more difficult compared to their West Ham counterparts today. Because we played with a much higher degree of risk and there's a big difference between being a DM in a compact low/mid-block with numbers behind the ball, and being a DM in a compact high block with potential 1v1 situations on the horizon in defensive transition with not a lot of support.

Defending in low/mid blocks = defending a smaller space with collective support.

Defending in a high block = defending a large space with minimal collective support in defensive transition in the event of the opponent counter attack.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
De Gea has made the made the most saves of any keeper in the league this season! We're 16th in the league for xGA. We certainly have a big issue in that part of the pitch. We concede far too many good chances, even against weaker opposition.
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Sure, he can help that side. But there are plenty of games and also periods of games where I don't think his other abilities leave us without issue. I think we'd still be calling out some of the ponderous passing and incisiveness. Which does make you wonder about the wisdom of paying a whole budget to get him. It'd be a rather slow route to progressing this team.
 
Abraxas said:
He did well defensively but I couldn't help thinking if he was on our side today would we have been all that much better? West Ham would be weaker, but I'm not altogether convinced he demonstrated that we would have been much more decisive winners.

He did a tidy job for them with his interceptions, positioning, passing but we struggled with quick progression of the ball and nobody seemed to have something to unlock them. These are not areas in which Rice excels.

It possibly shows there's a lot more to fixing our team than plonking a defensive midfielder in.
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I know what you mean. We probably do need a creative midfielder as well.

Above all we need a clever, physical, athletic, tactical midfielder with good leadership skills. Rice is that man. He is the true heir to Keane and Robson before him.

Of course, get someone like Neves, with a more creative bias, as well and we’ll be sitting pretty.
 
Lash said:
Don't get why people would watch how west ham played today against us, and think we should buy a player integral to how they play.

Thought we wanted to move away from being a counter attacking team?
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He can play in a more dominant side without a problem. He is flexible and his strength will be valuable in any system, as he is good on the ball as well. When we dominate, you need someone to intercept as well and stop counterattacks and recycle the ball, which he can do very well.

We still need someone between him and Bruno, an allrounder as an 8, as Fred and McTominay are squad players and lack a bit quality and consistency.
 
izec said:
He can play in a more dominant side without a problem. He is flexible and his strength will be valuable in any system, as he is good on the ball as well. When we dominate, you need someone to intercept as well and stop counterattacks and recycle the ball, which he can do very well.
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Yes, good point, well made.
 
cyberman said:
Rice and West Ham’s midfield have been overrun every bit as much as Utd this season and West Ham have a worse defensive record than us! And that’s with this great shield in Rice in their side.
We are going around in circles here but someone like Neves is an all round midfielder who had 10x the game Rice had today at OT.
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Neves, another player along with a geriatric Moutinho who gave these two clowns the runaround in midfield. Add them to the long list that includes such greats as Cleverley, Capoue plus many many more.

Until today, they were higher in the table, and the goal today is the only difference in defence. You put Rice into that midfield today for Utd, Utds games doesn't change, but without a doubt West Ham ship a few goals, same as they would without him in a lot of other games.

He's better than what is at the club. The question really is whether or not he's worth 100m. Or whether that 100m plus a little more would be better spent on 2 or 3 players who could also do a better job than Fred and McT. Because these two just aren't good enough on the ball or off it.
 
Abraxas said:
Sure, he can help that side. But there are plenty of games and also periods of games where I don't think his other abilities leave us without issue. I think we'd still be calling out some of the ponderous passing and incisiveness. Which does make you wonder about the wisdom of paying a whole budget to get him. It'd be a rather slow route to progressing this team.
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I agree that the price is prohibitive. Especially if West Ham back up some of the nonsense Moyes has been talking.

A player in Rice's position isn't really the guy you expect to be playing penetrative passes though. That's for guys like Pogba and Bruno. I'm more convinced it's the coaching than the players on that count. We've got great creative players and pacey wide forwards to run in behind against the low block like City do.

If you're talking about progressive carries then he's up there with the best in Europe this season. It's fair to point out that this is something less useful against the low block.

 
The issue I have is that he will be fantastically expensive and I'm not sure he will be transformative. We still need another CM to go with him. We still need a new RB probably and we still need a world class striker. We can't afford to spend £100m or whatever crazy figure WH would demand and address other areas.
 
andersj said:
He was great today and we need a player like him. I have been a fan of him for a while. But one should note that his performance today was not what we needed today, if that makes sense. It was what West Ham needed.

Would he offer what we need in a game like this against a team like West Ham where we dominate possession? Probably not. And that is why we cant pay a silly fee for him. Because even if we get Rice, we probably need someone more creative next to him.
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I think we have the creative options to play next to him in our youth set up because both Fred, McTominay, Mejbri, Garner or Galbraith can slot in next to him depending on the opponent. He is so physically and tactically dominant that you won't lose the midfield even if you partner him with a young player coming through.

If we sign him for the fee that West Ham will demand we will need to be creative and brave with who we partner him with. I think whoever, amongst our young midfielders coming up, is most mature and ready should get the nod to play alongside him as the link between Rice and Bruno. If it works it would make spending £100m on him more palatable because the slow motion builds we were doing under Ole don't work, just make your team as competitive as possible in one go.
 
izec said:
He can play in a more dominant side without a problem. He is flexible and his strength will be valuable in any system, as he is good on the ball as well. When we dominate, you need someone to intercept as well and stop counterattacks and recycle the ball, which he can do very well.

We still need someone between him and Bruno, an allrounder as an 8, as Fred and McTominay are squad players and lack a bit quality and consistency.
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I don't think he's ever shown he can. England is a good example as to where he doesn't contribute to a more dominant side.

Agreed on your second point, which is why Rice isn't a particularly good investment for us. Maybe Hannibal could be that man, but think with us needing more than just a DM, we need to be smarter.
 
Adnan said:
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He was always gonna win that with the way Moyes setup in a low to mid block. United were the proactive team, whilst unsurprisingly West Ham played a reactive game under Moyes.

For me he's a much better player than Fred and Mctominay and I've always maintained that. But the job of our midfielders was far more difficult compared to their West Ham counterparts today. Because we played with a much higher degree of risk and there's a big difference between being a DM in a compact low/mid-block with numbers behind the ball, and being a DM in a compact high block with potential 1v1 situations on the horizon in defensive transition with not a lot of support.

Defending in low/mid blocks = defending a smaller space with collective support.

Defending in a high block = defending a large space with minimal collective support in defensive transition in the event of the opponent counter attack.
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True and Moyes will never play any other way while away at a perceived bigger club but his anticipation and awareness of attacks is still so good. He’s nowhere near Carrick on the ball but defensively, his anticipation reminds me so much of Carrick.
 
Oranges038 said:
Yet he was the main reason Utd got nothing through midfield.

Now just imagine if Utd had a midfielder who defended in midfield like that, controlled the players around him and kept it simple the way he does.

I don't think he's worth 100m or the 200m West Ham were reportedly looking for. But he would be am instant upgrade on the players currently at the club in that midfielf area.

He's only 23 and he's only going to get better. He has that self drive and personality that Utd desperately need in the middle of the park.
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He defended very well, but offered next to nothing in the midfield battle against a poor midfield.

I don't know a top modern team who would think that's good enough because they play to never get into that position by being better in the midfield battle.

Obviously he's just one player, but they collapsed in midfield at times
 
Oranges038 said:
Have we really? Because every game I watch the lack of cover and control they offer from midfield is plain as day. Utd have one of the worst defensive records in the league and are also one of the worst when it comes to chances against. Largely because the midfield offer zero protection to the defence.

Fred and McT are runners, they don't have any great positional sense, they don't have the ball playing ability to dominate games against teams that don't give them all the time in the world on the ball. They don't have the brains and the presence to keep a midfield shape against teams that keep the bal better either. We've so time and again teams just waltzing past them like they aren't even there.

Honeslty, if Utd are going anywhere they are two of the first players that need to go. If Rice was to be one of the replacements he'd be an instant upgrade and would offer more than those two currently do combined.

Maybe he's not worth paying 100m for, because at that price, we'd still probably be left with him playing beside either Fred or McT. When that money could be spent on replacing both of them.
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I agree with what you said defensively, he's way better than anything we have and one of the best in the world.

I disagree with what you said about dominating midfields because West ham's midfield was very much beaten today by our crap midfield. I don't want a DM who cannot do a lot more for the midfield battle than what rice did today.
 
He has developed into a phenomenal player. Would be good in any team in the league, including City.
 
Lash said:
I don't think he's ever shown he can. England is a good example as to where he doesn't contribute to a more dominant side.

Agreed on your second point, which is why Rice isn't a particularly good investment for us. Maybe Hannibal could be that man, but think with us needing more than just a DM, we need to be smarter.
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England are coached by a horrific manager, and there’s absolutely no-one else good in central midfield.
 
Hammondo said:
Bellingham? Mount?
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Bellingham has never played beside Rice (in any meaningful matches anyway). I don’t particularly rate Mason Mount, and he’s not really a central midfielder anyway
 
Think he'd be amazing at Liverpool or City, but our individualistic style probably wouldn't see him be a great success. If he's part of a well drilled side with his own job then he'd be great. Could see him being a beast for City or Liverpool in the pressing game.
 
Red Royal said:
Think he is priced out of a move to us. Would Kalvin Phillips be more obtainable and be able to do the job?
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Great shout. Phillips would be the better acquisition, regardless of fee, but he’s a Leeds man through and through so it appears. The hype around Rice is ridiculous, but if it has to be an English CDM and if we’re willing to spend well above 75m then Rice it is.
 
The biggest problem is the fee West Ham will charge. Can we afford £100m when we need 3 CM's not 1. Tielemans has 1 year left in the summer. You could have a new midfield of Tielemans, Kamara & Tchouameni for the same price and for the same wages Pogba's on when he goes in the summer. I would prefer those 3 as our starting midfield next year than Fred, Rice and Fernandes. It's much better balanced. Any midfield containing Rice would take much longer to assemble due to his cost. If you want a more proven 6, Alverez at Ajax is doing it in the Champions League and would cost less than a third of Rice.
 
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lex talionis said:
Great shout. Phillips would be the better acquisition, regardless of fee, but he’s a Leeds man through and through so it appears. The hype around Rice is ridiculous, but if it has to be an English CDM and if we’re willing to spend well above 75m then Rice it is.
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Alan Smith was as much of a Leeds man as you will find and he still made the move.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
True and Moyes will never play any other way while away at a perceived bigger club but his anticipation and awareness of attacks is still so good. He’s nowhere near Carrick on the ball but defensively, his anticipation reminds me so much of Carrick.
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I agree with you and I actually think he's very good on the ball in the context of his position as the primary DM. He passes the ball really well with both feet, which would suit both the possession orientated approach and the uber direct vertical approach.

But I was hoping to see him tested in defensive transition in a more expansive approach, but sadly both Moyes and Southgate are coaches who sacrifice attacking intent for defensive stability. But along with being technically strong it's very important we sign a DM who is also strong at thwarting counter attacks in a high risk approach.
 
Even up until this season I can’t say I was onboard with any of the Rice hype, but this season I’m completely converted! He looks to now be developing in to an absolute top tier midfielder. If we spent our entire summer budget in just him and Tielemans I’d be delighted.

——————————DDG———————————
Dalot———Varane———Maguire———Shaw
———————————Rice———————————
—————Tielemans—————————————
———————————————Bruno——————
Sancho—————Ronaldo—————Rashford

Bench: Greenwood, Elanga, Amad, VDB, Fred, McT, Telles, Lindelof, Henderson
 
Really the only doubts I have about him are related to his price tag. Paying 100m or close is just ludicrous for any player that isn't the best itw (or close to it) at their position. I think I could stomach 60-70 but it really all depends on who we sell as well and what our budget looks like. We surely need another CB and some fullbacks along with probably 2 midfielders minimum.
 
I watched on a stream today which as we know is very different from watching a player live.

I would be interested in the views of Rice's performance from those who were at the match today.
 
I've been saying for years that he'll end up as a starter for a top side and the more I see, the more I'm sure that I somehow chanced upon a rare correct opinion. He's a really good player and he'd improve us and almost every side in the league quite a bit. The price is very toppy, but we felt we were overpaying for Carrick, too.
 
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