Declan Rice

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MattofManchester said:
I've seen a bit of Rice over the season and I can no longer say that he'd really be much of an improvement, especially for the price.

The step up from West Ham to Manchester United and in pressure is immense. There'll be nowhere to hide for him.

If we're going for overpriced midfielders with limited passing, then I'd rather we move for Ndidi.
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I realise I’m probably looking like a crusader by this point but I feel it is very easy to underrate him because he doesn’t seem to actually do all that much.

Your point about big-club pressure is really the crux of whether Rice is one for us or not. From what I’ve heard / read said by coaches and players who’ve worked with him, he has the character to flourish under that sort of pressure and would rise to the top, mainly driven by his personality. It would be the least of my worries that he would fold here.

He’s not an expansive passer and it’s true we could benefit from more creativity from deep. That would have to come from whoever plays with Rice. What Rice would bring would be better control of the shape of the team which is less about what he does and more about where he stands and how he communicates with the other players and these things are not eye-catching but have a great impact on how the team performs as a unit.
 
OrcaFat said:
I realise I’m probably looking like a crusader by this point but I feel it is very easy to underrate him because he doesn’t seem to actually do all that much.

Your point about big-club pressure is really the crux of whether Rice is one for us or not. From what I’ve heard / read said by coaches and players who’ve worked with him, he has the character to flourish under that sort of pressure and would rise to the top, mainly driven by his personality. It would be the least of my worries that he would fold here.

He’s not an expansive passer and it’s true we could benefit from more creativity from deep. That would have to come from whoever plays with Rice. What Rice would bring would be better control of the shape of the team which is less about what he does and more about where he stands and how he communicates with the other players and these things are not eye-catching but have a great impact on how the team performs as a unit.
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I admire your convictions!
 
Bebestation said:
Give me some ideas mate?
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I'd take Boubacar Kamara or aurelien tchouameni are 2 great young defensive midfielders who could play the role.

CDM isn't that popular in football right now, 4231 and 3 at the back are vogue.
 
There has been almost nothing in the media to suggest that e are interested in him at all. It's all just a whole big discussion around his suitability without any substance to rumors of his transfer.

Besides, 80 million for a limited defensive midfielder would be quite stupid thing to do.
 
zenith said:
There has been almost nothing in the media to suggest that e are interested in him at all. It's all just a whole big discussion around his suitability without any substance to rumors of his transfer.

Besides, 80 million for a limited defensive midfielder would be quite stupid thing to do.
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Sounds like a plan then!
 
His first touch worries me, have to admit to not watching that much of him, but when I do I see an erratic touch that is not the mark of a top class DM.
 
sullydnl said:
Yes he has improved a lot over the last couple of years, as has been broadly noted I think even by pundits who were previously critical of him.

It's also improvement you can track statistically. Aside from getting better at the defensive side of things, he has improved in other aspects of the game too. For example, he has openly spoken about improving how much he drives forward with the ball and that's something you can see getting better year on year statistically, so he now carries the ball forward twice as much as he used to a couple of years ago.

declan-rice-carries-1024x576.png


Crucially it's also what he isn't able to do in this England side when Southgate sets them up like he did against Croatia.

Statistically he's also improved in terms of passes completed, pass accuracy, chances created, take-ons, fouls won, passes in the opposition half, forward passes, etc.

Though as you say, you would expect improvement. Over the last few years he has played a lot. Between October 2018 and April of this year he played more minutes than any other outfield player in the PL. And in that time he has become nailed on as a midfielder for both West Ham and England, also captaining West Ham. And at 22 you'd expect him to keep improving.

None of which means we should sign him or that he's worth a ludicrous fee. But he is getting better year on year.
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sorry to bother you again. Do you possibly have these stats for McFred? I am curious as to what they look like to their peers
 
OrcaFat said:
I realise I’m probably looking like a crusader by this point but I feel it is very easy to underrate him because he doesn’t seem to actually do all that much.

Your point about big-club pressure is really the crux of whether Rice is one for us or not. From what I’ve heard / read said by coaches and players who’ve worked with him, he has the character to flourish under that sort of pressure and would rise to the top, mainly driven by his personality. It would be the least of my worries that he would fold here.

He’s not an expansive passer and it’s true we could benefit from more creativity from deep. That would have to come from whoever plays with Rice. What Rice would bring would be better control of the shape of the team which is less about what he does and more about where he stands and how he communicates with the other players and these things are not eye-catching but have a great impact on how the team performs as a unit.
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This is part of the problem most are seeing with the signing though, the very idea that we spend 80 million and have nothing to show for it in terms of build up play and picking out our forwards in a manner Ole seems to be going for.

You can then palm that responsibility for creativity off entirely to his partner as a way of justifying how it could work, but this isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for buying Rice because the question could be 'why did we spend so much money to address only part of our midfield problem and are we perhaps overemphasizing the wrong qualities?'

In this regard, Rice, Fred, McTominay - that is an odd looking bunch given we have spent a season of witnessing slow tempo stuff that hindered us in many home ties, an inability to progress and retain the ball consistently, turnover of the ball under pressure and a general lack of quality. It seems like we would be in the rather unenviable position of crossing our fingers that we can finally utilise Pogba consistently in this position for extra creativity, despite the fact we have tried for years and it has not worked. I'm not sure if that would be faith, hopefulness or delusion at this point.

I would think any signing can be argued to look good if it is predicated on signing somebody else to complement its logic, or if it ignores the makeup of the existing options.

Amother thing that I question in all of this is whether some of the defensive frailties are being correctly analysed when people advocate Rice or perhaps Ndidi as undoubted specialists. There is no question some susceptibility exists within our existing options, however, vulnerability is also created by the weaknesses I mentioned above, i.e. play in possession. We may rue the fact we took the reactive approach to the problem by buying Rice.
 
Stacks said:
sorry to bother you again. Do you possibly have these stats for McFred? I am curious as to what they look like to their peers
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No bother at all but I don't have exactly matching stats for McFred.

You can see the same stats (though they seem to be calculating them differently or are possibly just updated) on Fbref though. Just scroll down to "possession", toggle to "per 90" and you'll see them under "carries". You can see the same progression for Rice under those numbers too, so it should be valid for you to compare player to player.

https://fbref.com/en/players/1c7012b8/Declan-Rice

Worth bearing in mind that (I would think) the roles the players you're comparing play in their team will effect that particular stat though.
 
sullydnl said:
No bother at all but I don't have exactly matching stats for McFred.

You can see the same stats (though they seem to be calculating them differently or are possibly just updated) on Fbref though. Just scroll down to "possession", toggle to "per 90" and you'll see them under "carries". You can see the same progression for Rice under those numbers too, so it should be valid for you to compare player to player.

https://fbref.com/en/players/1c7012b8/Declan-Rice

Worth bearing in mind that (I would think) the roles the players you're comparing play in their team will effect that particular stat though.
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thanks!
 
Adnan said:
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He started off raising an interesting point; how would McSauce look in an underdog team like west ham? He looks pretty good for Scotland after all, but appears underwhelming for us.

This interesting point is then rendered somewhat invalid by Butt saying we are good enough now in central midfield. No we are not.
 
Cloud7 said:
He started off raising an interesting point; how would McSauce look in an underdog team like west ham? He looks pretty good for Scotland after all, but appears underwhelming for us.

This interesting point is then rendered somewhat invalid by Butt saying we are good enough now in central midfield. No we are not.
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I don't agree that we're good enough in midfield from a 'on the ball' perspective. So signing a midfielder who has the craft and guile on the ball to initiate attacks from deeper and progress forward with the transition is needed imo. What we don't need is a DM who is limited when it comes to distributing the ball and breaking lines as things stand. But if we had a Locatelli, Bennacer, Camavinga, Neuhaus, Bellingham etc in our first team, then I could see the appeal for a combative type like a Declan Rice, but even then I would prioritize Aurelien Tchouameni over him.
 
Adnan said:
I don't agree that we're good enough in midfield from a 'on the ball' perspective. So signing a midfielder who has the craft and guile on the ball to initiate attacks from deeper and progress forward with the transition is needed imo. What we don't need is a DM who is limited when it comes to distributing the ball and breaking lines as things stand. But if we had a Locatelli, Bennacer, Camavinga, Neuhaus, Bellingham etc in our first team, then I could see the appeal for a combative type like a Declan Rice, but even then I would prioritize Aurelien Tchouameni over him.
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Pogba is still here though
 
Cloud7 said:
He started off raising an interesting point; how would McSauce look in an underdog team like west ham? He looks pretty good for Scotland after all, but appears underwhelming for us.

This interesting point is then rendered somewhat invalid by Butt saying we are good enough now in central midfield. No we are not.
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Exactly think McT would be excellent for a team like West Ham. Rice is a limited player with no outstanding attributes.
 
Stacks said:
Nowadays DMX are not like Makelele, Carrick, Redondo, Busquets, Xabi Alonso, Yaya Toure. They seem more the Dunga Deschamps types
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There's probably lots of evidence to the contrary but there seems to be an awful lot of dm's these days who are incredibly boring to watch or players who are just given very limited roles. Carvalho is another who I just roll my eyes at whenever I see him for Portugal.

I miss the 90s midfielder who could do a bit of everything to a pretty high level. Keane, Vieria, Petit, Davids etc. didn't always play a pure DM role but when they did sit deep they were good to watch and had great technique.
 
Abraxas said:
This is part of the problem most are seeing with the signing though, the very idea that we spend 80 million and have nothing to show for it in terms of build up play and picking out our forwards in a manner Ole seems to be going for.

You can then palm that responsibility for creativity off entirely to his partner as a way of justifying how it could work, but this isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for buying Rice because the question could be 'why did we spend so much money to address only part of our midfield problem and are we perhaps overemphasizing the wrong qualities?'

In this regard, Rice, Fred, McTominay - that is an odd looking bunch given we have spent a season of witnessing slow tempo stuff that hindered us in many home ties, an inability to progress and retain the ball consistently, turnover of the ball under pressure and a general lack of quality. It seems like we would be in the rather unenviable position of crossing our fingers that we can finally utilise Pogba consistently in this position for extra creativity, despite the fact we have tried for years and it has not worked. I'm not sure if that would be faith, hopefulness or delusion at this point.

I would think any signing can be argued to look good if it is predicated on signing somebody else to complement its logic, or if it ignores the makeup of the existing options.

Amother thing that I question in all of this is whether some of the defensive frailties are being correctly analysed when people advocate Rice or perhaps Ndidi as undoubted specialists. There is no question some susceptibility exists within our existing options, however, vulnerability is also created by the weaknesses I mentioned above, i.e. play in possession. We may rue the fact we took the reactive approach to the problem by buying Rice.
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Yeah, could look at it that way, for sure.
 
Will Utd ever wake up and realise there are other DM options outside of him on the continent that are also significantly cheaper
 
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jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Pogba is still here though
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He isn't used in a two man midfield by Ole against top quality opposition hence I don't see him as the answer in a deeper role. A year ago I still had faith in him but I don't believe he's suited to such a role now. And with the arrival of Fernandes I don't even see him working in a 3 man midfield either. Pogba I feel is probably best utilized as the left sided attacker the way he's been utilized by Ole in a advanced role drifting infield in our team with our players.
 
Adnan said:
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He isn't used in a two man midfield by Ole against top quality opposition hence I don't see him as the answer in a deeper role. A year ago I still had faith in him but I don't believe he's suited to such a role now. And with the arrival of Fernandes I don't even see him working in a 3 man midfield either. Pogba I feel is probably best utilized as the left sided attacker the way he's been utilized by Ole in a advanced role drifting infield in our team with our players.
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I agree. I used to see him as a creative 8 but I had to let that idea go. It’s better for all if he’s at LAM. Although I think I prefer Rashford there sometimes. Despite the talk of a huge new contract, I can’t see Pogba sticking around much longer.
 
arthurka said:
Exactly think McT would be excellent for a team like West Ham. Rice is a limited player with no outstanding attributes.
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McTominay can’t even stand out in Midfield for Scotland what makes people think he would be that guy at West Ham I don’t know.

Rice is literally captain and there best player. You think he would be playing for Scotland being outshone by McGuinn.
 
It's not hugely complicated. If you build your team around Declan Rice you'll be one paced and one dimensional. If I'm managing a team playing against England I'd just tell my players to let him have as much of the ball as possible. He can't turn. He can't play the ball first time. He barely has a left foot. He won't get the ball round the corner. And all of his team mates know it, so why expend energy making a subtle run? Play all the forwards you want but by the time they get the ball the opposition will be perfectly set to defend.
 
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Mainoldo said:
McTominay can’t even stand out in Midfield for Scotland what makes people think he would be that guy at West Ham I don’t know.

Rice is literally captain and there best player. You think he would be playing for Scotland being outshone by McGuinn.
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Yes I do, don't see it with Rice.
 
Adnan said:
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And to think we only lost out Butt's coaching genius because we promoted someone even more clueless over him.

We don't need Rice. We do need upgrades on both McTominay and Fred.
 
If we are chasing Rice, than might as well stick with MCT. 2 players cut from the same cloth in terms of technical ability ...I feel
 
hobbers said:
And to think we only lost out Butt's coaching genius because we promoted someone even more clueless over him.

We don't need Rice. We do need upgrades on both McTominay and Fred.
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Relax, he is just promoting Mctominay who he must have worked with at youth level.

Edit: That said its weird comparison as Mctominay is not even a DM. He plays his best as a box to box midfielder.
 
OrcaFat said:
There’s three main arguments going on here.

1. Is Rice a good enough player for United?

2. Is Rice the type of player we need?

3. Is there a better or as good but cheaper player to do that job?

As usual in the debate, a lot of the arguments are getting crossed.

To the above, I would say:

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Don’t know. Probably not.
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Under same criteria, some bloke we bought from Southampton some time ago would get a 3 yes. I thought they are very similar, in the way that they are both solid defensively for mid-table teams, likes to sit deep at back to defend, and pass the ball sideways, with minimal contribution to attack.

I am fine to go for him if he only cost us half the price he was quoted at. At worst we would have another Schneiderlin, a water carrier who does nothing in midfield but defend, and we could still recoup the money by selling him back to some mid table clubs for sure.
 
Mainoldo said:
McTominay can’t even stand out in Midfield for Scotland what makes people think he would be that guy at West Ham I don’t know.

Rice is literally captain and there best player. You think he would be playing for Scotland being outshone by McGuinn.
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I don’t know, Rice seems not any better than McTominay in Euro so far.

Avg rating: McTominay 6.55 > Rice 6.48
Tackles: Mctominay 1.5 > Rice 1
Interception: Mctominay 2.5 > Rice 0
Ariel duels: Mctominay 2 > Rice 1

Yeh small sample size I know, but it doesn’t look inspiring so far.
 
RedRonaldo said:
I don’t know, Rice seems not any better than McTominay in Euro so far.

Avg rating: McTominay 6.55 > Rice 6.48
Tackles: Mctominay 1.5 > Rice 1
Interception: Mctominay 2.5 > Rice 0
Ariel duels: Mctominay 2 > Rice 1

Yeh small sample size I know, but it doesn’t look inspiring so far.
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Just the ball possession rate of England vs Scotland would explain a lot of these statistical differences. Similar to how club statistics would favour Rice to some extent.
 
CG1010 said:
Just the ball possession rate of England vs Scotland would explain a lot of these statistical differences. Similar to how club statistics would favour Rice to some extent.
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Which also may explain why Rice at West Ham is better than Mctominay at United. I wouldn’t be very surprise if given the change of situation, Mctominay at West Ham would be rated higher than Rice at United, for the exact same reason.

Bottom line being, both are limited player who does their job defensively, but offers nothing much in other areas. And both being better at lesser team with less possession. Remember Mctominay usually stands out for us when we are have a bad game.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Which also may explain why Rice at West Ham is better than Mctominay at United. I wouldn’t be very surprise if Mctominay at West Ham would be rated higher than Rice at United, for the exact same reason. Bottom line being, both are limited player who does their job defensively, but offers nothing much in other areas.
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Yes, I also said that!
 
RopersReturn said:
It's not hugely complicated. If you build your team around Declan Rice you'll be one paced and one dimensional. If I'm managing a team playing against England I'd just tell my players to let him have as much of the ball as possible. He can't turn. He can't play the ball first time. He barely has a left foot. He won't get the ball round the corner. And all of his team mates know it, so why expend energy making a subtle run? Play all the forwards you want but by the time they get the ball the opposition will be perfectly set to defend.
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Thanks for this beautiful insight, just another donkey of a footballer, a classic example of more muscle less brains.
 
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