Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player

Pogue Mahone said:
Explain Casemiro’s career then?
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They aren’t the same type of player?

Casemiro played a much more subdued role at Madrid compared to what he does for us, but even at Madrid he liked the occasional gander to the box and positioned himself much more aggressively than Rice, you wouldn’t see him the deepest in a 3 man line with his CBs, like, at all.
 
El Jefe said:
Rice must be good because these are the type of silly bumps that happened in Kante’s thread when he had the odd bad game.
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Yeah, agreed.
I happened to watch the Arse game yesterday and thought 'At last, the cnut has a bad game for them'.

He's been great so far.
 
It has nothing to do with how Rice is playing. If Arsenal had stuck with him and Xhaka in the middle and let Odegaard be a 10 and Martinelli be a proper attacking forward, they would be doing better. Arteta has messed up his system trying to accommodate Havertz.

West Ham are not better without Rice, they just used the money really well. They basically got Kudus, Ward-Prowse, Alvarez and Mavropanos in an exchange. All of them have improved their team in different ways.

It’s a home run and an excellent use of those resources by the club. It’s nothing to do with Rice making them worse. They just have a better team now.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
KDB barely played? Also progressive distance? Wtf is that?
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Last season, KdB featured in 32 league games. Anyway, the leading men in progressive passes were Odegaard (266) and Bruno (263). Rice, in comparison, had 240. Progressive distance measures how much forward a player has moved with the ball. Rice, who can only destroy and apparently doesn't offer much in possession, travelled 4,89km with the ball toward the opposition goal. Only Rodri did better.
 
I think the main point most people made at the time was that Rice, while being a very good player, wasn't worth the outlay for Arsenal, given what they really needed more than anything was a consistent goalscorer. They would have been better off spending some money on a DM, and spending a lot on someone that can give them close to a goal a game. At the moment, it seems like that is still a valid point.
 
Champ said:
Grow up and research yourself.

It's all online mate, just look, I am not going to spoon-feed you, I really don't care that much.
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Oh Defs made up then. Likely you’ve taken the stats over the entire course of a long last season and compared them to the start of this season. If you actually had a place to quickly compare the first 19 games of last season to this, you would obviously share it so yeah I’m gonna call bullshit on this.
 
Maluco said:
It has nothing to do with how Rice is playing. If Arsenal had stuck with him and Xhaka in the middle and let Odegaard be a 10 and Martinelli be a proper attacking forward, they would be doing better. Arteta has messed up his system trying to accommodate Havertz.

West Ham are not better without Rice, they just used the money really well. They basically got Kudus, Ward-Prowse, Alvarez and Mavropanos in an exchange. All of them have improved their team in different ways.

It’s a home run and an excellent use of those resources by the club. It’s nothing to do with Rice making them worse. They just have a better team now.
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Yeah, this sums it all up perfectly. The idea that Rice makes teams worse by his presence is obviously absurd. He is clearly a very good player. He is also having a good season, individually. So this witch hunt is even dumber than the usual writing off a new signing too early, seeing as he isn’t even playing badly.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
They aren’t the same type of player?

Casemiro played a much more subdued role at Madrid compared to what he does for us, but even at Madrid he liked the occasional gander to the box and positioned himself much more aggressively than Rice, you wouldn’t see him the deepest in a 3 man line with his CBs, like, at all.
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Casemiro was always the deepest midfielder at Madrid. Just like he is for us. Just like Rice is for Arsenal. They play the same role.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Casemiro was always the deepest midfielder at Madrid. Just like he is for us. Just like Rice is for Arsenal. They play the same role.
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And?

Just because two players play in the same position doesn’t mean they bring the same thing to the team, or you are saying there’s no different between a Makelele and a Busquets?

How deep is your deepest midfielder matters, his choice of the passes matter, there’s a material difference between someone evading the press by dropping in between the CBs to receive it in space, and someone who can receive it on the turn and bypass his marker.
 
El Jefe said:
Rice must be good because these are the type of silly bumps that happened in Kante’s thread when he had the odd bad game.
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The whole conversation is about Rice being worth £100 million.

Kante didn't cost anywhere near that even allowing for inflation.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
And?

Just because two players play in the same position doesn’t mean they bring the same thing to the team, or you are saying there’s no different between a Makelele and a Busquets?

How deep is your deepest midfielder matters, his choice of the passes matter, there’s a material difference between someone evading the press by dropping in between the CBs to receive it in space, and someone who can receive it on the turn and bypass his marker.
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I’m not arguing all midfielders are identical. I’m disagreeing with the idea that “middle to top teams” shouldn’t or don’t play with a Declan Rice type of midfielder. Which is, obviously, nonsense. Just like it would be nonsense to argue that Casemiro is significantly better on the ball than Rice. They’re similar players, with similar attributes.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I’m not arguing all midfielders are identical. I’m disagreeing with the idea that “middle to top teams” shouldn’t or don’t play with a Declan Rice type of midfielder. Which is, obviously, nonsense. Just like it would be nonsense to argue that Casemiro is significantly better on the ball than Rice. They’re similar players, with similar attributes.
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Casemiro is better on the ball than Rice.

And the will to do something matters a lot more often than the ability. For all we know Rice might have the passing and vision of Riquelme but if he doesn’t show it and just defaults to the safe options everytime then what does it matter?
 
Champ said:
Grow up and research yourself.

It's all online mate, just look, I am not going to spoon-feed you, I really don't care that much.
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You made a claim regarding some stats, you should really back it up with a source when someone questions it.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Casemiro is better on the ball than Rice.

And the will to do something matters a lot more often than the ability. For all we know Rice might have the passing and vision of Riquelme but if he doesn’t show it and just defaults to the safe options everytime then what does it matter?
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That’s not what happens though. How can you make that argument on the same page as someone pointed out he was amongst the most progressive passers in the league last season?
 
Marwood said:
The whole conversation is about Rice being worth £100 million.

Kante didn't cost anywhere near that even allowing for inflation.
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Everyone knows he was overpriced, I don’t think anyone has said otherwise even Arsenal fans would agree to that. Despite being overpriced, he’s absolutely been a hit of a signing and will be an important Arsenal player for many years.

Pretty much all mega transfer players have struggled at their new teams to begin with. Rice is the only one in the PL to be this successful after half the season and he’s just 24.

He’s not even the finished product yet and has Arteta there to polish his game. I really don’t get any of the criticism for him in here. If he had the exact same season for us he’d be a hero here.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That’s not what happens though. How can you make that argument on the same page as someone pointed out he was amongst the most progressive passers in the league last season?
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Because stats can be deceiving, it’s the same kind of stats that have Bruno tops this season on chance creation, when him spamming crosses or passes that lead to a weak attempt at goal is counted as a chance. In Rice’s case, due to the nature of his game, any pass would count as ‘progression’ when all he does is a 5 yard passes to the man slightly ahead of him, under no pressure, that accumulates over a season, whereas someone who positions himself higher will have less but on the occasion he does manage to find the forward pass will set his team up for success better.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Because stats can be deceiving, it’s the same kind of stats that have Bruno tops this season on chance creation, when him spamming crosses or passes that lead to a weak attempt at goal is counted as a chance. In Rice’s case, due to the nature of his game, any pass would count as ‘progression’ when all he does is a 5 yard passes to the man slightly ahead of him, under no pressure, that accumulates over a season, whereas someone who positions himself higher will have less but on the occasion he does manage to find the forward pass will set his team up for success better.
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Not true since for a pass to qualify as progressive must either move the ball at least 10 yards toward the opposition goal or, if it's <10 yards, be a pass inside the opposition box.
 
Maluco said:
It has nothing to do with how Rice is playing. If Arsenal had stuck with him and Xhaka in the middle and let Odegaard be a 10 and Martinelli be a proper attacking forward, they would be doing better. Arteta has messed up his system trying to accommodate Havertz.

West Ham are not better without Rice, they just used the money really well. They basically got Kudus, Ward-Prowse, Alvarez and Mavropanos in an exchange. All of them have improved their team in different ways.

It’s a home run and an excellent use of those resources by the club. It’s nothing to do with Rice making them worse. They just have a better team now.
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Agreed, it's usually how it happens, a team spreads those funds in multiple areas and they do better. Look at Liverpool post Coutinho.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
Not true since for a pass to qualify as progressive must either move the ball at least 10 yards toward the opposition goal or, if it's <10 yards, be a pass inside the opposition box.
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So if he's thirty yards from his own goal and plays a ball to his RB who is fifteen yards ahead of him, that's a progressive pass?
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
So if he's thirty yards from his own goal and plays a ball to his RB who is fifteen yards ahead of him, that's a progressive pass?
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Yes, it is. And because, nowadays, these "build-up" passes occur under pressure and defenders/goalkeepers/defensive midfielders tend to have playmaking abilities in their CVs, that particular stat is deemed worthy of mention by most sites and journalists. Or, perhaps, people think that Rodri is getting the same numbers by doing what a #10 does on the pitch.
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
Not true since for a pass to qualify as progressive must either move the ball at least 10 yards toward the opposition goal or, if it's <10 yards, be a pass inside the opposition box.
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It’s the general idea, if you are in space as the deepest or second deepest player, your passing even if unimaginative and routine will accumulate quickly in those two regards.

What I won’t argue against Rice is his progressive carry, as he’s physically very strong and a robust runner, in that regard the stat matches the eye test, but you can’t tell me to ignore my eyes and say that he’s a creative, progressive passer, he’s not.
 
RoyH1 said:
Quality midfielder for sure Does a lot of things right. But no way is he worth the kind of money that Arsenal paid for him. The inflation in the transfer fees of central midfielders in the Premier League is a thing to behold
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Very much agree with this, he is good is he next level good as the price tag suggests the answer is no but then the answer for that question is also true for Enzo and Caicedo at Chelsea and as stated the price tag for midfielders are obscene at the minute which for United's sake i hope Gore and Mainoo both end up as 1st team players as it will save us about 200 million at the going rate.
 
El Jefe said:
Everyone knows he was overpriced, I don’t think anyone has said otherwise even Arsenal fans would agree to that. Despite being overpriced, he’s absolutely been a hit of a signing and will be an important Arsenal player for many years.

Pretty much all mega transfer players have struggled at their new teams to begin with. Rice is the only one in the PL to be this successful after half the season and he’s just 24.

He’s not even the finished product yet and has Arteta there to polish his game. I really don’t get any of the criticism for him in here. If he had the exact same season for us he’d be a hero here.
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Not sure everybody does think he's overpriced. I've had a few conversations here with people who think he's worth it.

Us paying £100 million with that we need as a team would have been a major mistake.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
It’s the general idea, if you are in space as the deepest or second deepest player, your passing even if unimaginative and routine will accumulate quickly in those two regards.

What I won’t argue against Rice is his progressive carry, as he’s physically very strong and a robust runner, in that regard the stat matches the eye test, but you can’t tell me to ignore my eyes and say that he’s a creative, progressive passer, he’s not.
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I don't think that's the case. For me, he's a good passer of the ball in the sense that, after he wins the second ball or regains possession high up the pitch, he often "sees" the pass, simple as it my seem, that allows his team to maintain its attacking momentum and rhythm of play. In deeper positions, he secures possession and helps with good circulation of the ball. There's purpose to his passing choices, more often than not, he doesn't have to be a Pirlo or later-era Scholes. Carrick was never that for us, either, and he still hasn't been adequately replaced after all these years. Now, since you mentioned Bruno, you could argue that Moyes' deep line and counter-attacking style made it easier for him to "see" these passes, just like Bruno is one of the main beneficiaries of games that get stretched and spaces open up. Still, we should wait to see where he stands in these categories at the end of the season. Or, maybe, wait until his second full year at a club that aims to finish in the top-two spots, before we declare him a bad investment.
 
El Jefe said:
Everyone knows he was overpriced, I don’t think anyone has said otherwise even Arsenal fans would agree to that. Despite being overpriced, he’s absolutely been a hit of a signing and will be an important Arsenal player for many years.

Pretty much all mega transfer players have struggled at their new teams to begin with. Rice is the only one in the PL to be this successful after half the season and he’s just 24.

He’s not even the finished product yet and has Arteta there to polish his game. I really don’t get any of the criticism for him in here. If he had the exact same season for us he’d be a hero here.
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What is successful in your mind? What have he done to say he is successful Playing in team that is winning is not that. Then we could all say that every player in winning team is successful. He is not vital to them as some people think.

We have players that are equal to him and I haven’t seen threads about heroes yet. That have to do with us not being that great. As a team.
 
Maluco said:
It has nothing to do with how Rice is playing. If Arsenal had stuck with him and Xhaka in the middle and let Odegaard be a 10 and Martinelli be a proper attacking forward, they would be doing better. Arteta has messed up his system trying to accommodate Havertz.

West Ham are not better without Rice, they just used the money really well. They basically got Kudus, Ward-Prowse, Alvarez and Mavropanos in an exchange. All of them have improved their team in different ways.

It’s a home run and an excellent use of those resources by the club. It’s nothing to do with Rice making them worse. They just have a better team now.
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Spot on
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
Because stats can be deceiving, it’s the same kind of stats that have Bruno tops this season on chance creation, when him spamming crosses or passes that lead to a weak attempt at goal is counted as a chance. In Rice’s case, due to the nature of his game, any pass would count as ‘progression’ when all he does is a 5 yard passes to the man slightly ahead of him, under no pressure, that accumulates over a season, whereas someone who positions himself higher will have less but on the occasion he does manage to find the forward pass will set his team up for success better.
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Sure. The stats are misleading. Your opinion couldn’t possibly be wrong. Makes sense.
 
He's neither one of the best players of this season, nor is he as shit as some people rate him here. He's a great player who would instantly stabilize our midfield, but has a slightly too high price tag that sets the standard too high for him. I'd say for 80m he would have been a great transfer, 105m is too much. He still is one of Arsenal's key players and they play great football. Anyway, look at our own players first before shitting on others. Antony, Hojlund, Mount, Onana, Sancho and Maguire all have been worse transfers than Rice.
 
90 + 5min said:
What is successful in your mind? What have he done to say he is successful Playing in team that is winning is not that. Then we could all say that every player in winning team is successful. He is not vital to them as some people think.

We have players that are equal to him and I haven’t seen threads about heroes yet. That have to do with us not being that great. As a team.
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He’s been one of the better players in a team that has been top of the league for most of the season and is only two points off top spot now.
 
aeh1991 said:
He's neither one of the best players of this season, nor is he as shit as some people rate him here. He's a great player who would instantly stabilize our midfield, but has a slightly too high price tag that sets the standard too high for him. I'd say for 80m he would have been a great transfer, 105m is too much. He still is one of Arsenal's key players and they play great football. Anyway, look at our own players first before shitting on others. Antony, Hojlund, Mount, Onana, Sancho and Maguire all have been worse transfers than Rice.
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This is a fair take. He’s been one of our best players (I’d say third behind Saliba and the criminally underrated Gabriel). And I can’t think of a DM playing better than him in the league this season. But yes, I would much rather have paid £80m for him and had money to spend on other areas.
 
El Jefe said:
He’s been one of the better players in a team that has been top of the league for most of the season and is only two points off top spot now.
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Yep, I was gonna say this, but few people get a bit touchy whenever Gooners say anything along those lines around here.

There’s no way we’d be anywhere near the top of the league if Rice was as limited as some are making out.
 
Daydreamer said:
This is a fair take. He’s been one of our best players (I’d say third behind Saliba and the criminally underrated Gabriel). And I can’t think of a DM playing better than him in the league this season. But yes, I would much rather have paid £80m for him and had money to spend on other areas.
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He’s doing his job well, I did however read that Arsenal’s big attacking issue this season is how much less ball Odegaard is seeing and how that in part is due to Partey finding him much more often than Rice manages.
I guess that’s the balancing act you get with bringing in someone like Rice.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Sure. The stats are misleading. Your opinion couldn’t possibly be wrong. Makes sense.
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So you think Bruno Fernandes has been the best creative midfielder in the league this season? After all, the stats say so.

I’m all for the use of stats, but they need to be contextualised and backed up with actual observation. Onana has the 2nd best save percentage in the PL, can you genuinely say he has been the 2nd best shot stopper in the league?
 
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