I thought he had a decent game against Newcastle and was a little bit more on the front foot than usual - but overall, he's a very boring player. If that's what you want from him, yeah he's consistenly great at passing sideways and backwards, and covers a lot of ground. Very useful in that regard. But he's not the difference between a good side and a title winning side - at best, Arsenal have stagnated since he joined, but you could quite easily make the case they've regressed in their midfield play. For all his consistency, he's just not a top player.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
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I think you are underselling him a bit, and this is coming from someone who essentially share your opinion. He’s also positionally very sound, pretty strong in duel and has pretty good top speed which allows him to make the occasional marauding run from deep. However, my biggest criticism of him is his tendency to drop a good 10-15 yards more than he should when the other team has the ball, oftentimes even deeper than his CBs. That allows him to be in a great position for those last ditch tackles or interceptions but it also deprives the team of an option through the middle, when the guy who is supposed to receive and turn with the ball is in your own box. His sideway passing is also a direct result of this, because the pass to the CBs or fullbacks on either side of him is significantly safer when the middle is occupied by the AM/ST of the opponent in free space.
Arsenal fans are obviously very sensitive to any criticisms of his game, and often turn to accusations of rival fans being sour grapes, but frankly without him fixing that aspect of his game, I can’t take him seriously as a top midfielder, and that opinion has been held for years.
Has made Arsenal very defensive. We said it here long before. Rice doesn't play fast intricate forward passes, this was what Partey was good at. 1 time forward passes to Saka and Martineli. This is what made Arsenal soo potent last season.
Arteta did destabilize Arsenal main playing unit. The midfield. He needed to buy a defender and elite striker.
Arteta did destabilize Arsenal main playing unit. The midfield. He needed to buy a defender and elite striker.
Rice has unequivocally been our player of the season so far and I think you’ll draw few arguments from the fan base. If he's not the most important player in our team, he’s certainly up there. I wasn’t overly enamoured with the purchase when we made it, but having watched him now week in / week out he offers a tremendous amount. Nothing sexy, granted. But his recovery runs, winning his duels, his engine, it's all impeccable. He's never a passenger and never hiding. We need to utilise his ball carrying ability more as well. He hasn't fancy tricks, nor is he particularly quick - but he's powerful. He possesses this burst from deep that can cut through teams.
He's also playing in a faltering offense in which no-one has looked particularly impressive. Saka and Odegaard haven't got going at all yet this season and we've been forced to play Nketiah more often than not. That stuttering attack isn't going to showcase the best of Rice going forward, even if he doesn't shine at the best of times in progressive areas you won't get so much as a glimmer with our current struggles. I wouldn't put that as a indictment on him just yet.
There's more to come from Rice, but most Arsenal fans are more than satisfied with his contribution so far this season.
He's also playing in a faltering offense in which no-one has looked particularly impressive. Saka and Odegaard haven't got going at all yet this season and we've been forced to play Nketiah more often than not. That stuttering attack isn't going to showcase the best of Rice going forward, even if he doesn't shine at the best of times in progressive areas you won't get so much as a glimmer with our current struggles. I wouldn't put that as a indictment on him just yet.
There's more to come from Rice, but most Arsenal fans are more than satisfied with his contribution so far this season.
Ah no I think I entirely agree with your opinion, my previous post wasn't really in-depth - he obviously has qualities and is a solid DM, but I think he's quite one-dimensional and the claims by Arse fans this summer that there was more to him that wasn't being unleashed in that West Ham team but that would happen at Arsenal have shown to be pretty baseless. The player he's shown to be for years at West Ham and England is the player he is. I'll also recognise he seems to be a good leader, and he would of course improve our current midfield (before Arse fans go on a tangent about this), but yeah. It's all a bit meh. Very good and consistent at the mehness, but not a top CM.
Which probably goes a way to explain why you've been (relatively speaking) somewhat underwhelming vs expectations after last year.
I think there's a reason he hasn't been playing DM against any half decent opponent. Just doesn't have the quality in possesion.
Feel box to box may actually be his best role at a club like Arsenal, unless Arteta goes back to the Pulis ball he was playing for the first 18 months.
Rice is a top player, don't understand how anyone can watch him and still think he isn't one of the best defensive midfielders around. If he was around in the 90's with the same style everyone would be raving about him, hes a better footballer all round than many DM's of yesteryear that people praise.
He's a really good player but are we seriously saying he's up there with Davids, Roy Keane, Patrick Vieira, Effernburg, Ince, Petit, Redondo? I really don't think he's that level technically or even physically as powerful as them in terms of running and aggression.
The bolded bit is demonstratably false. He isn't close to Rijkaard, Ince, Redondo, Petit, Albertini, Effenberg to name a few technically, let alone in passing stakes. Who are just a tiny cross section of 90s DMs.
I wouldn't say that. For z pure defensive midfielder he is elite. Its thus no surprise he is constantly top 2 in Arsenal's most important player on pitch game in game out. The issue is Arteta bought into the myth he could offer what a Xhaka could. Like most folks he conflated Rice being an attack minded 6 with being able to operate as an 8.
Right now Arsenal are better defensively in midfield, but worse offensively because Xhaka's creative forward passing still hasn't been replaced. Yet it is what made the attack fluid because it freed up Odegaard, to not be the sole plah maker from deep.
He is benefiting from this being a comparatively weak era for defensive midfielders of any profile. Even still, there is a yawning gap between Rice and Rodri. I've already said it in this thread, but he would do well to reach the level of Fernandinho, for a recent player more in line with his profile.
I don’t think he’s the lesser of Ince technically, the others though that’s a fair comment, Rice is one of the better ball carriers in the league, and he can make good passes with either foot.
I think he’s a bit methodical and robotic with his movements stylistically but he can do pretty much most of what you want a DM to do, plus more.
Rodri is the best DM in the world but you still have the likes of Partey, Bentancur, Bissouma, Caicedo, Enzo, who are very good DMs and that’s just in one league.
He isn’t but you’re judging a player with his prime years ahead of him against players who have long retired and have the grace of nostalgia bestowed on them, those are some of the greatest midfielders of the last 30-40 years so it won’t be a surprise if he doesn’t reach that level, but I think he profiles well with a player like Ince for example, even down to the clubs they came from and the way they seamless made the step up.
If he was playing for a Bayern Madrid Barcelona I think more people will realise this, in this age people will look over your performances if you aren’t winning trophies, the same happened with Kane till he made his move to Bayern, now in less than one year even the doubters are giving him his rightful adulation, even though he was putting in similar performances for Spurs.
Isn't this a knock on effect of Rice though? I think he's a good if not great player - his strengths are the engine, covering ground, generally being a really solid player without really being spectacular with the ball.
At Arsenal, I'd say you're up there with the best teams defensively now in the league (only City have conceded less and you are 0.02 worse for xGA than them, essentially identical) but at what cost? I can see you being a bit like us under Ole where you don't lose a lot of games but you end up dropping too many points through draws.
I almost think he will end up at CB with you and come into the midfield from there in a couple of years.
But those teams would never be interesting in him so it's a false equivalence to begin with.
Not for that price but as a player I think they would if for example he cost 50-60m(as he should) compared to 110m.
That statement isn’t true for a start, as he’s played against Utd and Spurs as a DM. And you take him away from the 8 position in big games, you are then relying on someone like Havertz in that position, which evidently isn’t working either.
This is where we are mixing things up a bit. Was Havertz not bought as the player that was to be the main replacement for Xhaka in an attacking sense? It’s unfair to judge Rice for that just now, when we don’t quite know where Arteta sees him longer term. Will he be the 6, will he be the 8? We just don’t know, because the transfer of Havertz hasn’t worked so people are being moved about to accommodate.
I honestly think he's a brilliant player. It hardly helps him when he lines up in a midfield 3 consisting of Rice, Havertz and Jorginho. He has to do the leg work for Jorginho, similar to how Kante used to get through the work of two players and then you have Havertz who is basically a non-existent entity on the pitch.
As good as he is, you still need to provide him with a good structure to flourish in. His midfield partners at West Ham were better than Havertz and this current version of Jorginho.
As good as he is, you still need to provide him with a good structure to flourish in. His midfield partners at West Ham were better than Havertz and this current version of Jorginho.
PL pricetag and wanting to stay in England ended it. Tuchel also wand to get rid of Goretzka (probably still does).
Arteta moved him to the 6 in the second half against us when Jorginho got subbed off and Arsenal were immediately a better team.
I wouldn't say so. Saka has been cold since March. Yes, he's had spectacular moments since then, but he's definitely cooled off from his peak performance of last season. Whether he's carrying a knock, experiencing growing pains as teams handle him differently or was having a purple patch I'm not sure. Obviously I hope and don't think it's the latter, but Saka hasn't been his red hot self since before Rice arrived.
Odegaard I think is suffering from the absence of Xhaka. Which was a void arguably Rice was brought in to fill. However, I still think Arteta wants to play Odegaard, Rice, Partey and we've barely had the chance to do it with the latter's fitness problems.
Arteta needs to solve our limp attack if we're to kick on and challenge City this season, we can't wait for Partey who by all accounts is looking to be sidelined until the New Year.
I think Odegaard and Rice are two thirds of our longterm midfield trio, but to get the best out of them we're going to have to find a complementary piece.
...if only we didn't spend £65m on Havertz..
arsenal fans trying to tell themselves rice was a good buy just like united fans trying to tell themselves antony will come good
Except he was a good buy (rice) and no-one thinks Antony will come good anymore
I disagree somewhat.
I think Rice is fantastic but so far concerns about his offensive limitations have some grounding. Assuming he doesn't add that progressiveness into his play, Odegaard's position is upgradable. I don't think Odegaard is suffering from Xhaka's absence; Xhaka just surprisingly provided an extra oomph in offense that is now missing from midfield, and Rice/Odegaard are understandably struggling to provide.
He’s been very good and he’s pretty young so he’ll maintain his value. Arsenal could legitimately sell him in 3 years for a profit. So he’s been a great buy imo
We wasted 90m on Antony we maybe should have spent on rice for example but the facts are he’s not as good as Casemiro when Cas is fully fit so end of the day we’d still be in the same position as we are. He’s no game changer but a good squad player.
A tonne better than Antony though!
A tonne better than Antony though!
If Southgate the manager could be a CM, he would be Rice. That's how I see him.
Seen a discussion after the West Ham game. Would you take the Arsenal options that were available for that game or the West Ham options, and you’ve got to say the West Ham options of Alvarez/Soucek/Paqueta/Kudus and Ward Prowse are probably better than what Arsenal could offer that game. Bar Rice, I don’t think we’ve managed this midfield revamp well at all.
Agree completely.
Surely it’s harder to provide an extra oomph is there are serious question marks over the 3rd player that plays alongside Rice and Odegaard though, be it Jorginho, Vieira or Havertz?
I could understand if the only difference to last season was taking Xhaka out and puttting Rice in, then you have a direct comparison to draw conclusions. But how can you draw conclusions when the 3rd part of last seasons midfield (Partey) has barely played this season, and the fact Rice has had to play different positions with multiple partners? You then have a couple of different factors so how do you draw conclusions from that?
Ince was defintely far better than Rice technically. Of that I personally have no doubt. I also don't see the "more" in his game that people claim he can do outside of being an attack minded ball carrying DM. For me as a player he is similar in style to a young Casemiro when he started to break into the Real Madrid team. That is why a midfield with him and a deeper lying six who isn't a deep lying playmaker will never be creative enough.
You are conflating the likes of me stating Xhaka is still missed with judging Rice. There is zero need to judge him because We all already know they type of player Rice is and will be. He is an attack minded 6. A proper ball carrying one. Still a 6! But as a number of us stated he was NEVER going to turn out to be the Xhaka upgrade a number of you thought he could be. Long term he was always going to displace Partey and Jorginho. Unless y'all landed on a Pirlo type 6 to enable him play 8 ala Gatusso.
I agree Arteta possibly saw Kai Havertz as a solution to the Xhaka question but that was a big risk. Because has spent 3 season's not playing in midfield and was definetely going to require a big readjustment period.
Ok, i think we are sort of agreeing then. I agree that he was never going to be the Xhaka upgrade in terms of goal involvements as an 8, but i think people were more thinking he would upgrade the off the ball side of the game rather than the on the ball side. I think Arteta probably looked at the goals we conceded in the run in, 3 vs Brighton, 4 vs Man City, 3 vs Southampton, 2 vs West Ham, 2 vs Liverpool, and thought tweaks that he can do to improve defensively either pre game or during a game would help us take the next step.
He was also very aware about the drop of when Partey doesn't play.
Asked about Partey's overall fitness, Arteta said: "He is a big concern because when Thomas is fit and available and he's been part of the team, we have seen what the results and the impact that he has on the team. This season we have more protection, especially for that reason as well because we know in the past two seasons what has happened and the impact that it had on the team so we had to address that.
So i think Arteta liked the fact that with this current squad, Rice could fill a role at either position, even though he wouldn't be a straight swap for either of the players he was replacing in terms of their characteristics.
Like you say, the intriguing thing is who he will target for midfield over the next couple of windows, and where he ultimately see's Rice settling down.
Yep, I agree with this. I much prefer him as a 6. I really wish we had kept Xhaka. His style of play means he’ll be good for a 2-3 more years. We’d finally found perfect role for him and only got one season out of it.
The other weird thing is that I thought Havertz would be able to replicate Xhaka’s surprisingly good attacking output from last season, but would struggle defensively. Strangely enough, it’s been the opposite. Havertz has been statistically stronger defensively than Xhaka was last season. The team as a whole has conceded fewer chances and fewer goals. I’m not sure how an attacking midfielder who played up front most of last season has replaced Xhaka and made us more solid defensively but worse offensively - but that’s exactly what’s happened.
Kai has always been good defensively tk be fair. Its a big part of why he is liked as a forward. I believe it will eventually come good for him as he is still readjusting to being a midfielder again full time. If he can rediscover what initially made him a star in Germany. He can go some way to filling the attacking void Xhaka left
He can still stand out as they did given the lack of players of their class playing in midfield positions throughout the league these days. You only need to be up there against your contemporaries of the day and for me he’s capable of being that in this league for his team. We are crying out for just a fully functioning cog, nothing else, who you don’t watch and think needs to be replaced ever. That’s a long search in itself for us and many others.
That is what I was thinking the entire summer. Why are we letting Xhaka go? We would be in way better shape and 44 mil in the bank. We could have convinced him to stay I am sure. Xhaka and Rice in the middle ..pff we could have let Partey go. Instead, we got a committee of players next to Rice not cutting it.
Another good game against a poor Sevilla side. Please someone give this man a haircut though, that tophat needs to go.
He is a terrific player, and another proper feck up by Utd not to get him when he would have given us 10 years of solid play to build around.
Xhaka wanted a new challenge.
What did he do that was so great or noteworthy this game?