Dean Henderson | On loan at Forest | gives public outburst against United

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Another overpaid player we will be stuck with unless going on loan and I doubt any club will offer a guaranteed buy option for the likes of Dean, Martial, AWB etc.

I honestly can’t see anyone buying our players due to our valuation and wages. We kind of made our own bed to be fair.
 
If Henderson is staying, I’d rather see him between the sticks and not DdG.
 
One of these goalkeepers has to move on for sure. It's no easy decision either.

One of them is on near £400k a week with one year left. He is an incredible shot stopper and has been consistantly the best player since Ferguson left. He is however very limited with the ball at his feet and tends to stay on his line.

The other is much younger and far better when coming forward to sweep and is more gifted in possession and might fit EtH's system better. He however is demanding first team football and was paid £100k a week (on a long term deal) to sit on the bench. He has been less consistent over the years and is rumoured to be the dressing room leak.

Both long term options don't fill me with joy. Problem is with the extent of the rebuild needed can we really afford a new keeper in the first 2 years?
 
WhyYouGottaBeSoRuud? said:
One of these goalkeepers has to move on for sure. It's no easy decision either.

One of them is on near £400k a week with one year left. He is an incredible shot stopper and has been consistantly the best player since Ferguson left. He is however very limited with the ball at his feet and tends to stay on his line.

The other is much younger and far better when coming forward to sweep and is more gifted in possession and might fit EtH's system better. He however is demanding first team football and was paid £100k a week (on a long term deal) to sit on the bench. He has been less consistent over the years and is rumoured to be the dressing room leak.

Both long term options don't fill me with joy. Problem is with the extent of the rebuild needed can we really afford a new keeper in the first 2 years?
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Henderson's strength was that at sheff utd he was constantly engaged in the game and kept on his toes. When you come to a bigger club, normally you aren't as a keeper as active during the game and you need to be able to make that top level save after 10-15 mins of inactivity. Not all keepers can do that.

At top level its mentality and mental strength that are the differentiator. I think Henderson will be good for Newcastle but become less effective as Newcastle progress higher up the table and get better players.

De Gea may not be a ETH keeper, but Henderson isnt the answer. De Gea can be changed in a few years time imho, no rush.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
We one won title with DDG in goal and conceded 43 goals which was the most conceded by a title winner in the past 22 seasons. That title win was probably our 'luckiest' in the Fergie era. We conceded the most goals in the top 4 and we're 3rd best in terms of xG-xGA. It all hinged mostly on Robin Van Persie's brilliance. Remember DDG had Ferdinand, Evra, Vidic and Carrick in front of him in that season as well.

The signs of our decline were already there and what happened after wasn't such a great surprise with retrospect.
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The treble team was the best United side I have ever seen. As per top side it is only eclipsed by Pep's Barca and the 3 Dutch men AC Milan. All of these sides would shit on any team in current football and yet none of these sides were perfect. The treble side relied on an ageing Irwin & Schmeichel + it lacked a WC striker. Pep's Barca defence was meah while Milan lacked a top GK. The reality is no matter how much millions one can pump in the team it will never be perfect

What top managers do is to build a side around the strengths and weaknesses of their top players. Foe example Rossi was average but Sacchi made sure he'd have a WC defense in front of him. Saf made sure to add pace on the left flank and to keep Stam close to Denis while Pep flooded the midfield with numbers AND quality which made it nearly impossible for anyone to cross the half way line. United failed on that. We decided to play a high line with a top shot stopper who is weak going forward, a CB with zero pace, FBs that cannot defend and no natural DMs. That’s were united's weakness lie not DDG
 
It's an absolute joke that he wasn't loaned out in January. He's played one game since the end of the January window, effectively wasting the best part of six months of his development.

I'd be absolutely furious in his shoes.
 
Isn’t De Gea out of contract in 2023 ? If so then I get loaning Henderson to a PL team where he’s guaranteed to play as reality is he’s much more an ETH keeper than De Gea is BUT moving De Gea on with his wages and a year left on his deal would be impossible, has Henderson got another 3 years on his contract ?
 
Rome wasn’t built in one day and neither was Liverpool!!

All you guys on about how we should replace DDG with Henderson (who we can get 40m for this window), need to understand we don’t have u limited money…

What will we do with the keeper if we don’t have ball playing centre backs,
mitchmouse said:
not much point in that if we keep conceding goals that can be avoided by having a keeper who dominates his area, puts the fear of god into oncoming forwards and gives his own defenders confidence. Surely we could get the same sot of price for DDG. If we were to find one of those "plenty of Hendersons" (possibly Martinez or Fabianski, but Pope most likely if Burnley go down), then we could sell both Hendo and DDG, with someone like Sam Johnstone (or a youngster) as back up.

It really is time people saw through where so much of the trouble lies. In the old days, shot stopping was all that mattered (Bosnich was good at that and only suffered when the back pass rule changed)
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If we genuinely believe that GK is one position that takes priority to replace.......I give up.....
On another note, I mentioned in my previous response, selling DeGea is unthinkable and impossible given he is on 375K a week contract....
 
devilish said:
DDG has its share of strengths and weaknesses just as any other player. No one complained back then that Bruce was slow, that Gaz was rash, that Irwin (during the treble) had lost a yard of pace, that Evra had a tendency to forget that he's a defender or that Rio needed a hardman at his side. We acknowledged their qualities and we've built around their weaknesses. The same had to be done with DDG who is one of the finest shot stoppers in football and had been bailing us out for years. The problem isn't DDG, its our managers who hadn't added players to exploit the strengths our team has while covering up its weaknesses.
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Every player you mentioned were great all-round players that perhaps had one noticeable weakness. That's relatively easy to build around and compensate for.

De Gea is the exact opposite. He has one stand-out strength, but otherwise is below average (if not downright terrible) in basically every other aspect of his position. It's closer to AWB's abilities at rightback, being amazing at one specific attribute while being poor at pretty much everything else. Much more difficult (I'd say impossible) to build around that.
 
MadDogg said:
Every player you mentioned were great all-round players that perhaps had one noticeable weakness. That's relatively easy to build around and compensate for.

De Gea is the exact opposite. He has one stand-out strength, but otherwise is below average (if not downright terrible) in basically every other aspect of his position. It's closer to AWB's abilities at rightback, being amazing at one specific attribute while being poor at pretty much everything else. Much more difficult (I'd say impossible) to build around that.
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good post
 
Haven’t seen anything special from Henderson. I think he’ll be a good, Premiership level goalkeeper… but I can see Newcastle looking to upgrade in order to break the Top 4. £40m would be great business in this market.
 
Gurtej said:
Rome wasn’t built in one day and neither was Liverpool!!

All you guys on about how we should replace DDG with Henderson (who we can get 40m for this window), need to understand we don’t have u limited money…

What will we do with the keeper if we don’t have ball playing centre backs,


If we genuinely believe that GK is one position that takes priority to replace.......I give up.....
On another note, I mentioned in my previous response, selling DeGea is unthinkable and impossible given he is on 375K a week contract....
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We do have ball playing CBS…
 
Cannot remember if Henderson actually tries to catch crosses or just punches them out? With the possession game under Ten Hag surely we lose advantage with another De Gea...
 
MadDogg said:
Every player you mentioned were great all-round players that perhaps had one noticeable weakness. That's relatively easy to build around and compensate for.

De Gea is the exact opposite. He has one stand-out strength, but otherwise is below average (if not downright terrible) in basically every other aspect of his position. It's closer to AWB's abilities at rightback, being amazing at one specific attribute while being poor at pretty much everything else. Much more difficult (I'd say impossible) to build around that.
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Completely agree. The poster also mentioned Sebastiano Rossi under Arrigo Sacchi who was a better goalkeeper than de Gea because he was far superior at commanding his area and distributing the ball in a Sacchi system which was heavily influenced by Rinus Michels' total football concept of the 1970s. And Rossi was a fit for the system Sacchi wanted to implement.

And we also have to remember that the football being implemented in EPL now is different to what we saw pre the arrival of Brendan Rodgers and Pochettino who introduced a coordinated pressing game in conjunction with the intensity and high tempo.

When the likes of Steve Bruce were playing in the EPL or players in most other leagues, the first phase of the build up was comfortable to navigate because most teams dropped goal side after losing possession. A lot of teams don't do that now and it's even more important to have technically top class players in the first phase of the build up.

And like you said, de Gea is a pure shot stopper and the rest of his game isn't of the required standard for a team that wants to evolve and play a proactive attacking brand of football. If de Gea was useful at commanding his area, then I could possibly bring myself to defending him somewhat but he's a complete non entity in that regard as well. The penny finally dropped with Luis Enrique and it'll be interesting to see how long this lasts under ten Hag.
 
MadDogg said:
Every player you mentioned were great all-round players that perhaps had one noticeable weakness. That's relatively easy to build around and compensate for.

De Gea is the exact opposite. He has one stand-out strength, but otherwise is below average (if not downright terrible) in basically every other aspect of his position. It's closer to AWB's abilities at rightback, being amazing at one specific attribute while being poor at pretty much everything else. Much more difficult (I'd say impossible) to build around that.
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The job of the goalkeeper is to stop shots, first and foremost. The other aspects of his position are not equal.
 
Adnan said:
And like you said, de Gea is a pure shot stopper and the rest of his game isn't of the required standard for a team that wants to evolve and play a proactive attacking brand of football. If de Gea was useful at commanding his area, then I could possibly bring myself to defending him somewhat but he's a complete non entity in that regard as well. The penny finally dropped with Luis Enrique and it'll be interesting to see how long this lasts under ten Hag.
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Absolutely. If De Gea's only issue was his distribution (as so many people try to make out) then I'd be absolutely fine with him remaining as our #1 for another season or two as he'd be one of the last pieces of the puzzle we'd have to improve. Likewise if it were just his command of the area, or his ability under the high ball, or his communication with the defenders, or a willingness to come out of his box to clear the ball. If it were a couple of those things he'd be a weakness, but there would still be other areas that would be a bigger weakness. But it's all of those things that are an issue.
 
mu4c_20le said:
The job of the goalkeeper is to stop shots, first and foremost. The other aspects of his position are not equal.
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Not really. Even if you don’t think goalkeepers need to be great with their feet, which they obviously do, shotstopping still isn’t the most important quality. Being proactive rather than reactive is much more valuable. Most top level goalkeepers are going to be decent shotstoppers. You get freaks like De Gea who are amazing and Kepa who are dogshit, but generally they’ll at least be competent. Things like collecting crosses and dominating your own box or sweeping in front of a high defensive line are more important, provided they’re not Kepa level at keeping it out.
 
mu4c_20le said:
The job of the goalkeeper is to stop shots, first and foremost. The other aspects of his position are not equal.
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Very debatable. An average (as in it not being a weakness but also not being a strength) shot-stopper with a strong all-round game will almost certainly end up conceding less goals than a fantastic shot-stopper with a terrible all-round game. He'll face less shots because he'll be dealing with many opportunities before they actually become shots, the defence will be more solid and comfortable ahead of him, and on average the shots that he will be facing will have a lower expected goal percentage. He'd also be helping his team control more possession (so the opposition will have less possession to create chances) and be contributing to his team scoring more goals (both directly with his own distribution and indirectly simply due to the extra possession and control his team has).
 
MadDogg said:
Very debatable. An average (as in it not being a weakness but also not being a strength) shot-stopper with a strong all-round game will almost certainly end up conceding less goals than a fantastic shot-stopper with a terrible all-round game. He'll face less shots because he'll be dealing with many opportunities before they actually become shots, the defence will be more solid and comfortable ahead of him, and on average the shots that he will be facing will have a lower expected goal percentage. He'd also be helping his team control more possession (so the opposition will have less possession to create chances) and be contributing to his team scoring more goals (both directly with his own distribution and indirectly simply due to the extra possession and control his team has).
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Really good post
 
De Gea is definitely not good enough for a team that wants to play a high line both in terms of distribution and coming off his line to sweep, and he's never commanded his area. However, he's on 350K a week with a year to run on his deal and I couldn't imagine there's any club that would take him. While Henderson offers cash in the bank and I doubt he's ever going to be good enough to be a decent replacement for de Gea.

I'd be surprised if we extended Dave's deal, but I can't see how the club can move him on with a year left on that mega deal. And he's a top professional too, so it's not like he rocks the boat at all. How he conducted himself during the Real-saga was exemplary.

Best case scenario is getting another keeper who is considered a genuine heir to de Gea to compete with him, but we've got so many things to address in such a frantic window that it doesn't seem plausible.
 
Bastian said:
De Gea is definitely not good enough for a team that wants to play a high line both in terms of distribution and coming off his line to sweep, and he's never commanded his area. However, he's on 350K a week with a year to run on his deal and I couldn't imagine there's any club that would take him. While Henderson offers cash in the bank and I doubt he's ever going to be good enough to be a decent replacement for de Gea.

I'd be surprised if we extended Dave's deal, but I can't see how the club can move him on with a year left on that mega deal. And he's a top professional too, so it's not like he rocks the boat at all. How he conducted himself during the Real-saga was exemplary.

Best case scenario is getting another keeper who is considered a genuine heir to de Gea to compete with him, but we've got so many things to address in such a frantic window that it doesn't seem plausible.
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There's a year option on top of the De Gea deal too isn't there?
 
Isnt it ironic that United is the very first club in england to play with prototype of modern goalkeeper (Fabien Barthez) but now we stuck with the "dinosaur" goalie? Woodward fecked up big time.
 
WhyYouGottaBeSoRuud? said:
One of these goalkeepers has to move on for sure. It's no easy decision either.

One of them is on near £400k a week with one year left. He is an incredible shot stopper and has been consistantly the best player since Ferguson left. He is however very limited with the ball at his feet and tends to stay on his line.

The other is much younger and far better when coming forward to sweep and is more gifted in possession and might fit EtH's system better. He however is demanding first team football and was paid £100k a week (on a long term deal) to sit on the bench. He has been less consistent over the years and is rumoured to be the dressing room leak.

Both long term options don't fill me with joy. Problem is with the extent of the rebuild needed can we really afford a new keeper in the first 2 years?
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From what I understand, Henderson is not really great at distribution either. So no point in keeping him when he isn't even making up for DDGs flaw when the latter is the best player of the post SAF era.
 
We have urgent positions to replace and GK is very down on the orders. People need to know that if its other clubs then they would sell at the highest possible price without a qualm.

Is it just me or our fans always want to sell when said players dont play during the season but once buyer are making bids, we fans start to finds reasons not to sell.
 
JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo said:
If Ramsdale is worth £30mill from a relegated team then bloody hell £40mill is a steal
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40 million for Henderson is not a steal, is it? Ramsdale was overpriced. Henderson is overpriced. They’re probably both worth about the same.
 
MadDogg said:
Every player you mentioned were great all-round players that perhaps had one noticeable weakness. That's relatively easy to build around and compensate for.

De Gea is the exact opposite. He has one stand-out strength, but otherwise is below average (if not downright terrible) in basically every other aspect of his position. It's closer to AWB's abilities at rightback, being amazing at one specific attribute while being poor at pretty much everything else. Much more difficult (I'd say impossible) to build around that.
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DDG won 4 Matt Busby player of the year award. He was the first goalkeeper to win it, the first player to win it three times in a row and the first player to win it 4 times. I think he's slightly better then tackles. SAF won a league title with DDG in goal and he had bailed out LVG and Mou in numerous occasions. Ole tried to replace him but he won his place back putting the most hyped bench player in United's history since Fabio Da Silva back to his place, erm, on the bench in the process.

I am not suggesting that DDG is the best keeper one can inspire to be. There's goalkeepers like Buffon for example who made VDS look like Taibi at Juventus. However he's an excellent goalkeeper who can serve us well up until we are in a position to replace him. The problem lie with our tactics. We play a high line with no DM to shield that, a LB that can't defend, a RB that can only defend (AWB) or can only attack (Dalot) and the slowest CB United had since Steve Bruce. That creates a huge gap between the back line and the goalkeeper that ANY goalkeeper would struggle with let alone an old fashioned type of goalkeeper such as DDG.
 
There were times when Henderson was in goal last season that I was happy he was facing the right way.
There is a school of thought that DDG is nothing but a shot stopper, which may well be the case, but whatever is going on with him... Henderson is not the answer.
 
If Newcastle come in with an offer I hope we conclude the sale quickly, no fecking about trying to squeeze every penny off them. Get the 30m or 40m and get moving to doing our own business.
 
devilish said:
The treble team was the best United side I have ever seen. As per top side it is only eclipsed by Pep's Barca and the 3 Dutch men AC Milan. All of these sides would shit on any team in current football and yet none of these sides were perfect. The treble side relied on an ageing Irwin & Schmeichel + it lacked a WC striker. Pep's Barca defence was meah while Milan lacked a top GK. The reality is no matter how much millions one can pump in the team it will never be perfect

What top managers do is to build a side around the strengths and weaknesses of their top players. Foe example Rossi was average but Sacchi made sure he'd have a WC defense in front of him. Saf made sure to add pace on the left flank and to keep Stam close to Denis while Pep flooded the midfield with numbers AND quality which made it nearly impossible for anyone to cross the half way line. United failed on that. We decided to play a high line with a top shot stopper who is weak going forward, a CB with zero pace, FBs that cannot defend and no natural DMs. That’s were united's weakness lie not DDG
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I think you’re harsh on the treble winning team
Schmeichel and Stam were WC. Irwin still had a very high consistency. The midfield, all 4 WC individuals. Was there a better unit around?
In terms of the forwards cole and yorke scored 50 something goals in their partnership
 
The owners:

Dean Henderson analysis
Bad : average player
Good : english very good for image

Conclusion : 40 mil
 
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